Overmod-- " You do love your Cobalt and your Swastika, don't you?"
The train I'm looking for did not go to Cobalt or Swastika, but its more famous connection certainly did.
And as they vehemently declare " We had the name first"
I think you put this in the wrong thread -- this is for the quizzes.
Probably a better idea to start a new thread with this content, as it's interesting, just a bad distraction for the quizlings. Or paste it into a different thread that had parlor cars, or some of the other details, in it.
I'll answer some of the points there, rather than compound the distraction here...
Content moved.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
You do love your Cobalt and your Swastika, don't you?
This named train has been running a long time, essentially since 1932 uninterrupted. It has legend, lore and fable that is very real, goes back a long ways, yet is relatively 'lightly' known, even in the railfan community. This named train has recently undergone a stunning rebuilding, both beautiful and appropriate, again lightly reported.
It is the last passenger train running on a railroad that once had great and important named trains, one that in particular was more famous and well known but no longer runs. There were also connections and several branch line passenger trains and locals. The railroad is the same since its inception and has never been part of a merger although it had a name change. What is the named train that still runs and the railroad?
Waterways, essentially Fort MacMurray. Mixed Train from Edmonton all the way up there. Now I rode that one too but from Fort Mac/Waterways all the back to the Dunvegan Yards in Edmonton. Now that was some railroading. Should have mentioned that.
It is a rather long story but to keep it pithy, I was bicycling across Canada from Burlington to Yellowknife. A journey of late youth to find oneself, see the country and do it alone. Here and there I would take the train. I bicycled North to Yellowknife from Peace River and caught the train South on the return journey from Waterways. I will never forget the professionalism and decency of that conductor coming back. He took time here and there to relate history and some tall tales. I'm pretty sure I was the only passenger most of the time.
I was offered a job on the CNR in Peace River. I had been accepted at the Provincial Institute of Mining in Ontario starting that September and had a rather tough decision to make... my passion and heart or my mind, betterment and a gift for Geology.
Always loved railroads but also loved rocks. I often wonder what would be had I went with the CNR. Whole different ballgame.
p.s. Dude I knew the answer the day you posted it but did not want to pop the balloon immediately. Then when things went sideways with parlour cars and PRR, read rcdrye responses which were excellent really then I decided it's time to jump in.
Will put a question up in the am by noon.
Northern Alberta's Combooses are indeed the cars I was thinking of, and while they were intially used on mixeds and wayfreights across the entire NAR system they spent most of their careers on one particular run, which was not the ex-ED&BC 'mainline' (Edmonton to Dawson Creek).
The train was nicknamed after the swampy terrain much of the route traverses. Some of the Combooses lasted in revenue service until 1985, though after 1983 they were only used when additional cars were needed on the train.
'Blue Train of the Prairies' was indeed the story on here with a photo of a Comboose:
http://ctr.trains.com/way-it-was/railfan-stories/2011/07/blue-train-of-the-prairies
Another 'The Way it Was' story describes a ride on the service the Combooses were most used on.
Go ahead and ask the next question Vince, time to get the quiz moving along again. I'm sure you've heard the name I'm thinking of anyway.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The Blue Train of the Prairies.
Started out as the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia which has second hand ex PRR passenger equipment. Then it became the Northern Alberta Railway and acquired cars from the Boston and Albany, Milwaukee Road, coaches fron the CNR and a diner from the CPR. The NAR had combines to which they added a bay window and acquired the nickname Comboose.
The Mixed lasted until 1981 with some equipment going back all the way to the ED&BC, then NAR and finally CN.
I rode this train 1971 Edmonton to Peace River.
rcdrye Georgia Railroad? Their non-main-line mixed trains ended around 1983 (as CSX trains), and some of the combines used there had truss rods.
Georgia Railroad? Their non-main-line mixed trains ended around 1983 (as CSX trains), and some of the combines used there had truss rods.
The cars I am thinking of lasted slightly longer than Georgia's. Their domain was, and still is much snowier than Georgia.
Like most mixeds, the train they were mostly used on did not have an official name, but it did received a nickname based on the terrain much of the route runs through.
Also, most PRR streamlined coaches, vestibule and one end only, low rounded roof, air conditioning, reclining seats, picture windows, were actually rebuiltr P-70s keeping the originial frame and often the trucks as well. The postwars, P85s and subclasses, were Juniata-built. Both outnumbered the Budd-built coaches. The Budd coaches were built specifically for the Congresionals, Senator, and through operation on the Southerner, Tennesean, East Coast and West Coast Champions, and Silver Metero, Star, and Comet. And later there was the Keystone and then the Metroliners and Phildelphia-financed Silverliners.
The original Trailblazer did have an observatin-lounge car at the rear, open to all passsengers. I think it still was in place in the summer of 1952 when I rode the train. The situation was that people who ordered drinks and snacks had priority on the seating. It was a blunt-end observation car with a small galley-kitchen and tables and a coiunter with seating and the usual observation rear facing seatsw, but with small tables, at the rear. If my memory is correct, and I am not confusing it with some other overnight train that left from New York's Penn Sta. Why and when the obs-lounge was dropped is something I'd be happy to learn.t
Jones1945Speaking of PRR Parlor-coaches, I was trying to find out why there wasn't any parlor or parlor-observation car attached to PRR's Trail Blazer before the train combined with "General."
I believe you will find there'd be no reason for 'Pullman' to provide such a thing; a number of railroads (wasn't New Haven one of them?) provided parlor-car service quite happily thenselves. This might be thought of as an early kind of 'business class' amenity upgrade ... but note that Pullman could have demanded 'space charge' of some kind for coach passengers to use the thing, and coach passengers... would all camp out in there ASAP if there were no protection to keep them out (or at least move them out if they were getting drinks or snacks in there). (I think this also clarifies somewhat why Pullman had so little 'chair' service...)
So in order for two-class travel to work, you'd need the same sort of Chinese-wall protection between the main part of the coach train and the 'parlor car' that you'd have with a combination coach-and-Pullman setup. That implies either careful vigilance at the vestibule of a 'parlor-obs' at the rear (so that the parlor folks could get to the food facilities, etc.) or placing the parlor near the front where it might 'feel' more surge and other effects if present.
As noted, the experiment of running a predominantly 'coach' train, with all its advantages, with a couple of sleepers tacked on the rear to fill out the capability of the engine was an obvious thing to try. The intermediate step of having a higher class of 'chair' service was an obvious thing, too. That something like this didn't catch on, even in that era of better-subsidized marketing of passenger services, is probably as strong an indication as we need that it was not likely seen as 'favored by patronage', either.
Jones: something that comes to mind is Yourkevitch's nearly-built proposal to put the equivalent of a Trail Blazer on the North Atlantic run in the mid-Fifties. That had much the same opportunity to add 'luxury' -- hell, the original White Star economic model for the three 'big ships' wasn't really all that far from it -- but note that it didn't happen, in part because the DH Comets showed us how the future was roaring up on us, and American aircraft then clinched it.
MInd you, I'm still bitter we never got supersonic transport aircraft, so I'm one of the wrong people to ask about substitutes for luxury transportation commanding all the extra luxury prices. Think of a 20th-Century Red Carpet service for a 2707, which is entirely thinkable, and you'd never go back to even water-level sleepers again.
Now, back to the combinooses. (Hint.)
rcdrye Except for a few PRR Parlor-coaches UP's cars were the only cars with coach seats regularly operated by Pullman.
Except for a few PRR Parlor-coaches UP's cars were the only cars with coach seats regularly operated by Pullman.
Speaking of PRR Parlor-coaches, I was trying to find out why there wasn't any parlor or parlor-observation car attached to PRR's Trail Blazer before the train combined with "General." I don't believe that an overwhelmingly successful all-coaches train like Southern Pacific's Coast Daylight didn't have any impact on PRR's management, which probably led them to make a wise decision - made a tremendous amount of money by running an all-coaches train between NYC and Chi-town so that they didn't have to pay Pullman a single cent.
I read an article about a test conducted in the early 1940s at Pullman's request, where a sleeper provided by Pullman was attached to the end of the consist of this all-coaches streamliner for about one month. At least one Pullman porter or a train attendant worked for Pullman (I can't remember the detail) was aboard to see what kind of service he could provide on an all-coaches train. I will need some time to find the source of this article again if our forum member wants further details, but it gave me the impression that Pullman wanted their cut/share on every train running on the New York to Chicago corridor. But of course, no follow up after the test, and PRR kept making money from this "Pullman-Free" all-coaches train ( its gross revenue in 1940 was equal to $2,260,000 or $40,416,960 today).
Note that the PRR didn't even buy any Pullman built coaches for the first generation Trail Blazer (1939-1949) like SP's Coast Daylight, if there was any please enlighten me. Even the cars used on the 2nd generation of Trail Blazer were manufactured by PRR's own shop (P85b). There were less than ten P85a (PRR #4030-4032) and P85f (PRR #4043, 4044) streamlined coaches built by Pullman Standard but Budd was PRR's preferred coachbuilder in the postwar era.
The cars I am thinking of lasted another 10-15 years in service after the end of the SP&S/BN mixeds, which ended with the formation of Amtrak if I recall correctly.
A photo of one is included with one of the "The Way It Was" stories that cycle through the main page of this website.
I'm thinking the SP&S built them for the Oregon Trunk, where they operated in mixed trains from Wishram WA to Bend OR until 1971. Since SP&S became part of Burlington Northern in 1970, the cars outlasted their (re-)builder.
Now for another rare, but probably not unique type of passenger-carrying equipment.
Coverted from even older wooden coaches in a regional railroad's own shop, a series of coach-cabooses ended up becoming the last revenue-service passenger equipment with truss rods, and also may have been the last wooden passenger cars rostered by a Class I, as they outlived the regional that built them.
Name the regional railroad that built them, and the route they were mostly used on.
Except for a few PRR Parlor-coaches UP's cars were the only cars with coach seats regularly operated by Pullman. Main stem of the train they were used on was the "Spokane", 19 and 20. UP was inconsistent in timetable labelling, with the plan 4177/4178 cars listed as both "Tourist" and "Standard", sometimes in the same equipment listing. The Coach-Sleeper designation came in the early 1950s. Both UP and Pullman records refer to the cars as "Coach-Dormitories" even before their assignment to dormitory service for dining car crews on seasonal trains like the "Utah Parks Special".
The cars were rebuilt from UP-owned coaches after the Pullman breakup and were never in Pullman ownership.
Plan 4177 comprised three cars, numbered UP 2784-2786. They were known as Chair Sleeper cars (the name on the scanned UP drawing on the first link) and had 8 sections, and would also seat 22 in coach. They were used between Portland and Lewiston.
The very similar Plan 4178 cars (6 sections, seating 30 or 40 in coach) were used between Portland and Yakima.
http://utahrails.net/pass/Coach-vs-Chair_UP-2781-2786.pdf
https://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track7/spokane195407.html
All of the type 4s were scrapped. A few type 5s are around in museums, along with a couple of center-entrance cars.
For good customer Union Pacific, Pullman rebuilt several UP-owned cars to plan 4177 for service on light-traffic lines in Idaho and Washington. The cars were Pullman-oprated, but some of the cars' accomodations were of a type not normally associated with Pullman. To satisfy somebody's problem with the cars being labelled as ....-sleepers, they were listed under another designation in UP's and Pullman's list of cars. Give the car designation and maybe one of the cars' endpoints.
Type 4 at Central Square
At MIT
daveklepperBridge always named Harvard Bridge, much to annoyance of us MIT people.
I'll post a new question later today.
OK except:
1. Bridge always named Harvard Bridge, much to annoyance of us MIT people. When first opened around 1885, MIT, fairly new at the time, had not moved from the original Back Bay campus across the river to Cambrudge along Memorial Drive.
2, No Dallas cars are still in service on MBTA. Mattapan - Ashmont was their last passenger-carrying regular route, but now only the wartime PCCs are there. No Dallas car got the heavy rebuilding and air-conditioning that all Boston PCCs still in service receive
3. Type 4 dseck-roof heavyweight cars, even older than the Center=Entramce cars, were used on Central Square - Watertown until end of streetcar service in 1950 or 1951, and thus ran to MIT. to Memorial Drive, 1949 and early 1950.
Look forward to your question.
Looks like line 76, which ran from Harvard Square to MIT for a week before the MIT-Central Square section was added to the Watertown-Central Square line. Converted to trackless trolley April 1950, to bus in 1961. The then-MTA used type 5 and center-entrance cars on routes requiring double ended cars. The PCCs began arriving in the late 1930s, with the double-end PCCs coming used from Dallas in 1956. Some of the Dallas cars are still in service on the Mattapan line along with a few original Boston PCCs.
The MIT bridge links Boston and Cambridge across the Charles. My Dad used it to get to MIT from his frat house in the 1940s.
The Briege having been rebuilt during the time when there was no transit service across it, still has the name of one of the two educational insitutions but is used only very occasionally by its students. However, students of the other educaional institution use it regulaly, to and from classes, and some resent its name. The very first local horsedrawn transit service in the metropolitan area used the bridge; it had an early horsedrawn streetcar line, electrified before 1900, and lasted until the bridge was overhauled without streetcar tracks and the one-week-only service inaugurated, itself ended by a paving project at the lines other end. When the bridge reopened, it was with pre-WWII gas buses, then came TTs with new wire over the bridge, and then diesel buses. The TTs were the miniority make within the total large TT fleet of the system.
Before the bridge rebuilding, the streetcar line had partially or fully off-street loops at each end, but never saw regular service from any of the PCCs in a fairly large fleet of PCCs, athough PCCs did cover the line or part of it on fantrips. One type of double-end lightwieghts from a very large fleet of them was used. But the remaining trackage after the one week saw only the oldest cars still in use by the system, also double-end. (PCCs were and are the only single-end cars ever used on the system. Een then, the system did use double-end PCCs, the only North American system that used both single and double-end PCCs.)
th
The constructioni project that closed the two-city line and instituted the one-week cutback to just one city, the smaller, involved a bridge rebuilding.
East Coast
Hint: The long term original line served a large city and a snall city. The one-week operation served only the small city. The route that ran on the remaining section served the small city and a suburban town that also had a direct streetcar line to the large city. The eventual replacement bus again served a close copy of the original route involting the large and small cities.
For a time it was operated with trackless trolleys. This involved new wire over a large turnback loop over two streets that never had streetcar rails.
Today, the bus also is close to the original route, but is extended over a second bus line that has been combined with it. One can transfer to rail at four locations,. two at its terminals.
Hint: Both the long-term line and the subsequent one-week shortened line served two large and important educational institutions, and at the end of the week, only one was seved by the remnant, although the other still had some streetcar service.
A specific streetcar route operated for only one week, inaugurated and ended several years after WWII. It represented a curtailmenet of a much longer lasting line, the curtailment caused by a reconstruction and repair project. Its own end after one week was caused by a street repaving project, but middle portion of the original line was continued to be operated by streetcars for several months more, with one end at the one-week line's cutback terminal and the other at an even more distant terminal than the original line, using different equipment.
Only double-end streetcars were used in all these operations.
Where, when, why?
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