AWP290 His name was William Gibbs McAdoo and he was also Wilson's Secretary of the Treasury, and his son-in-law as well. He built the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad and was originally from Marietta, GA He was succeeded as Director General of the USRA by Walker S. Hines. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
His name was William Gibbs McAdoo and he was also Wilson's Secretary of the Treasury, and his son-in-law as well.
He built the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad and was originally from Marietta, GA
He was succeeded as Director General of the USRA by Walker S. Hines.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
A name that goes down in infamy! Ummm, McAdoo not Hanson!
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Actually, McAdoo was a capable manager and administrator. The idea of nationalizing the railroads was, as we have seen, sheer idiocy, however.
In my opinion, the railroads took a bum rap for the car shortages and service snafus that led to their nationalization. In reality, this mess was caused by the military (mainly) and other agencies loading cars and sending them to eastern ports long before ocean transportation was available for this freight, forcing them to use the cars as warehouses until such transportation was available.
Now for my question:
On the Central of Georgia Railway, trains traveling between Atlanta and Albany, GA, (Southland, Flamingo, Dixie Flyer, et al) changed numbers at Macon.
Why?
Probably changing direction from westbound to southbound or northbound to eastbound. West and northbound would be odd numbers, east and southbound would be even numbers based on the general direction of the railroad acccording to timetable instruction..
They didn't change directions. That's the kicker. They were either southbound or northbound all the way.
It has to do with the Central's peculiar operating practices.
I hear tell you’re doin’ well,Good thing have come to you.I wish I had your happinessAnd you had a do-wacka-do,Wacka do, wacka-do, wacka-do.
They tell me you’re runnin’ free,Your days are never blue.I wish I had your good-luck charmAnd you had a do-wacka-do,Wacka do, wacka-do, wacka-do. (Roger Miller)
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/tubesandphoebesnow.html
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/path/hmhistory.html
Bob, thanks for the prompt answer. -- Mike
Possibly their train numbers were specific to the division or former railroad that they operated on, rather than bening assigned on a system-wide basis.
In contrast, most (all?) Boston-Washington through trains had the same number on both the PRR and the New Haven!
We're dancing around the answer. So close (particularly the first answer) but not quite.
Bob
OK,. they didn't change geographical directions, but they changed railroad dirctions from east to west and west to east. So they were an odd number first and an even number second and an even number first and an odd number second. Or perhaps doing exactly the same results but giving a different reason, they ran the railroad like the Briitish with up and down trains, with Macon replacing London.
AWP290On the Central of Georgia Railway, trains traveling between Atlanta and Albany, GA, (Southland, Flamingo, Dixie Flyer, et al) changed numbers at Macon. Why?
Rgds IGN
Dave hit upon the answer. As London was the center of the universe in England, so was Savannah to the Central of Georgia Railway. Trains going away from Savannah were given odd numbers, those going towards Savannah, even numbers.
A train moving from Atlanta to Macon was deemed to be going towards Savannah and was assigned an even number, as it left Macon for Albany it was moving away from Savannah and received an odd number. So even though the trains never changed geographical direction, they did change railroad direction, or timetable direction.
Go to it, Dave!
Bob Hanson
Then my answer was right, too...the trains changed numbers by timetable direction not actual direction whatever the designated directions were.
I was looking for the CofG-specific answer regarding direction being either to or from Savannah. Your answer was in the general area, as each railroad designates railroad direction geographically. The Central, specifically, did not use geographic directions, only whether a train was headed towards or away from Savannah, and that definition was, at times, terribly vague.
The Central-specific answer was what I was looking for, i e - to or from Savannah, rather than geographical direction.
Close - but in my opinion, no cigar.
AWP290 I was looking for the CofG-specific answer regarding direction being either to or from Savannah. Your answer was in the general area, as each railroad designates railroad direction geographically. The Central, specifically, did not use geographic directions, only whether a train was headed towards or away from Savannah, and that definition was, at times, terribly vague. The Central-specific answer was what I was looking for, i e - to or from Savannah, rather than geographical direction. Close - but in my opinion, no cigar. Bob
Fair enough.
Although there were subclasses and sub-sub classes, there really were only three major classifications of New York Central Hudsons, J1a, J2a, and J3a The J1a and J2a shared some characterstics, and the J1a and J3a others. In what two major visually obvious ways did the J2a differ from both the J1a and J2a and why did it have these two major differences? HInt: one of these very obvious characteristcs was often lost when the J2a lost its original assignment because of dieselization of that assignment and was assigned elsewhere on the NYC system. And I am specifically not referring to lettering or numbering.
I believe the J2a's were assigned to the 20th Century Ltd and possibly other trains such as the Empire State Express. If this is correct they would differ from other NYC Hudsons because of their streamlined shrouds and painted drivers which, IIRC, were either Boxpox or Scullins.
Mark
The only Hudsons that received streamlining were J1a's and J3a"s. All the Century and ESE Hudsons were J3a's. None of the J2a's received streamlining. Ever.
Differences in drivers? Close.
Another hint. Rightg after WWII (during, also, when available) one mineature train manufacturer had a train set with a NYC Hudson, a mail-baggage, and two coaches. The Hudson was NOT a J2a. If it had been, there would have a prototype for the train. As it was, the Hudson modeled probably never ran hauling the particular train.
The reason the Hudson modeled did not haul the particular train in prototype was because the three-car pasenger train was lettered for a different railroad than the New York Central Hudson. But J2s's did haul those cars frequently and regularly.
The decals supplied with the Hudson kit and probably used on completed models sold had the number: 5318. From the model itself and from the number, the model locomotive was a J-1a. Forget the number of decal for the baggage car, but the coach decals were all 8303. One could, of course, use the decals by gutting and come up with an alternative number for one of the cars, like 8033 or 8330, which would have been prototype. The coaches were green, hand full-length thin skirts, and were of a lightweight prototype. Everything was for two-rail operation. In this train set, the model named the prototype.
Improving my memory, possibly there were two coach number decals, one 8202 and one 8303. There should be hits gallore already. Of course, New York Central J-1a's and J-3a's regularly hauled Canadian Pacific cars bettween Harmon and Buffalo on New York - Toronto trains. But J-2s's never did. And under original assignments, J2a's never hauled Canadian Pacific cars, just cars of another "foreign" railroad. And they did not visit Harmon regularly. But they did haul trains that were hauled by electric locomotives for part of their journey.
Buffalo - Toronto trains were often hauled by one of the two TH&B Hudsons which were identacle to NYC J1a's except for the one characteristic that the J2a's usually lost when they were reassigned from their original purpose and location.
I should have given you enough hints as to just what the J2a's were. I should say some of the trains they hauled, probably not the majority, and this "foreign road" passenger equipment and those were the trains that did see electric power on the head end for part of their schedule, as well as the "freign road" steam power, always a Pacific.
But one more hint. Most of the other steam locomotives and possibly some early diesel switchers also were not lettered Nre York Central or any combination of those letters IN THE TERRITORY THAT T HE J2a's WERE DESIGNED TO SERVE EVEN THOUGH IT WAS DEFINITELY PART OF THE NEW YORK CENTRAL SYSTEM. These Hudsons were the first locomotives to be labeled New York Central in the territory where they were designed to serve. The road diesels were pooled with the rest of the system and were always labeled New York Central, ditto the Mowhaks that began handling increased traffic during WWII. Mowhaks with smaller tenders would fit the turntables in the area, being about the same length as the freight power specific for the territory, but Niagras were a bit too long and never ran where the J2a's were originally assigned.
Frankly, I am shocked that nobody yet has the answer. On last hint (I hope!)
The New York Central called itself the "Water Level Route," and its J1a and J3a Hudsons were designed to hall heavy trains at high speed on its main lines that met that description.
The J2a's were designed for different territory, and were the companions of famous freight engines also designed for that territory. Both migrated to other parts of the New York Central when the specific territory was one of the first to be completely dieselized. If I remember correctly, the frieght engines did not initially have New York Central on their tenders, but followed the traditional practice for locomotives assigned to that territory.
And the "foreign road" coaches that the J2a's regularly hauled are also famous. Those trains had an electric, then a Pacific, and then a J2a in one dirrection, reversing the order in the other direction. But the J2a's also hauled famous trains that were pure New York Central, but some were the first to pass to Mowhaks when traffic got heavy just before and during WWII. The Mowhaks often ran through, but the J2a's seldem ran outside their territory until dieslization began.
Dave,
Other than GCT fo Harmon the only electrified segments used by NYC (and its affiliates) trains were the Cleveland Union Terminal and the International Tunnel at Detroit. The J2a's would fall into what I'll call the modern steam era and in that time period I'm pretty sure the engines of the Big 4 were lettered NYC not Big 4 or CCC&StL. I'm thinking that at that time B&A and MC engines were lettered Boston & Albany and Michigan Central, respectively. CASO engines could have been lettered Canada Southern at that time too but I'm not at all sure of this.
You have mentioned "foreign" road several times which inclines me to think the J2a's ran on CASO trains from Canada to Detroit. The other possibility tthat comes to mind is that they ran on B&A trains from Boston to Albany and on to Cleveland over the parent NYC. I don't think any MC trains ran through the electrified tunnel at Detroit unless they they were proceeding on into Canada via the CASO.
I realize none of this identifies the unique visual features of the J2a's that you originally asked for but if we can define the roads/routes on which they ran I (or someone else) can possibly find a photo of them which will lead to the answer you are seeking.
Since my last reply I've been surfing a bit and found out the B&A had five J2a Hudsons, nos. 600-604. I located a photo of no. 602 which shows it to have a smalltender with 4-wheel trucks and a square (or rectangular) sand dome. I'm wondering if these are the unique visual features that set these engines apart from other NYC and affiliates Class J's.
Finally, a correct answer. I had forgot about the square sand dome. Also, possibly these locomotives, and you have listed the entire J2a series, were built by Lima and not American Locomotive Works? But one important feature is missing and I want you to make the logical guess since you have close to the complete answer . Given the territory the J2a's were designed to serve, what obvious difference in design would you, as Superintendent of Motive Power, make so these locomotives would be better fitted for the territory served? Careful examination of the photos as compared with the J-1a's and J-3a's also will give you the answer. This feature did of course stay with these locomotives when relocated upon the B&A dieselization. So, of course, did the square sand-dome. The 8-wheel small tender, large enough for the Boston-Albany run, the longest the B&A had, was replaced by twelve-wheeled tenders that that had been removed from Mowhaks that had received even larger "coast-to-coast" tenders, and the J2s's then showed up on the Michigan Central.
The J2s's regularly hauled New Haven American Flyer coaches, which left Grand Central Terminal behind a New Haven EP-2 2-6-2 + 2-6-2, or an EP-3 or EP-4 -6 + 6-4, with engine change to a New Haven I-4 4-6-2, then another engine change to a New York Central J-2a Hudson for the final lap from Springfield to Boston. New Haven coaches were regularly seen in the New York Central's Back Bay coach yards (now the site of the Prudential Center), and New York Central coaches were regularly seen in the New Haven portion of the Mott Haven coach yard. The New York - Boston Inland Route, five hours being about the best schedule time.
Please complete the answer AND ask a new question. Thanks!.
I'm pretty sure the J2a's had smaller diameter drivers than those of the other NYC System Class J's. This enabled them to handle heavier trains than the higher driver Hudsons could over the grades found on the B&A route through the Berkshires. I think this is the other difference you were looking for though it would be hard to spot unless you had seen a J2a alongside another of the J Classes in real life or a photo.
If you confirm this completes the answer to your question I'll post a new one.
KCSfan Dave, I'm pretty sure the J2a's had smaller diameter drivers than those of the other NYC System Class J's. This enabled them to handle heavier trains than the higher driver Hudsons could over the grades found on the B&A route through the Berkshires. I think this is the other difference you were looking for though it would be hard to spot unless you had seen a J2a alongside another of the J Classes in real life or a photo. If you confirm this completes the answer to your question I'll post a new one. Mark
This is just an elaboration on the above. The B&A J2's had 75 in. drivers vs the 79 in. drivers of the more numerous NYC System J1 and J3 class Hudsons. This gave the J2's a higher tractive effort than that of their other NYC 4-6-4 counterparts.
The answers I was looking for were, indeed, the smaller tender, eight-wheeled, and the smaller driver diameter. Close look required for the photographs, but differences in the driver diameter very obvious when standing next to the locomotives. So, Mark, go ahead and ask the next question.
But more on the Inland Route vs. the Shore LIne:
If I bought a ticket to Boston at Grand Central Teminal, and my plans changed, requiring a stop over in Springfield, I would not need to change the ticket. I would board a New Haven Springfield train, possibly one through over the B&A (NYC) to Boston, or possibly through to New Hampshire and Vermont Points via the B&M, and the conductor would mark it "off at Springfield" over his signature and number, and I could then use that New Haven ticket on any Springfield - Boston train except the New England States.
Both the Central and the New Haven were committed to having a certain number of air-conditioned coaches on the Inland Route trains. The Central complied by air-conditioning heavyweight long distance coaches, but the New Haven furnished "American Flyers", the 1934-35 lightweights in the 8200 and 8300 series.
I always thought dining car food and sevice on the New Haven to be very fine. But there were those who preferred New York Central diners and knew which Inland Route trains carried them and used them between Boston and New York instead of the New Haven direct service via the Shore Line.
The erosion of this service began in winter 1949-1950, when the NYC began using Budd cars for most Boston - Springield schedules while the New Haven continued locomotive hauled trains from Springfield to New Haven and New York. About two through trains continued up through about 1962 and perhaps later. It did not last until Amtrak, but Amtrak revived it for a period with a Boston - New Haven round-trip via Springfield. Didn't last long. Used the Roger Williams RDC equipment at times.
On to the next question which is a three parter.
1. What was the railroad?
3. What was the specific reason the government wanted it to remain in operation
The railroad was the Rio Grande Southern.
The amount was in the $60-65,000 range (don't know the exact figure.)
The reason - highly classified - was that this road was materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb. The Desense Supplies Corporation, a subsidiary of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, purchased most, if not all, of the equipment and leased it back to the railroad as a way to raise cash.
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