Oops! I think faster than I can type.
The road was hauling out materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb.
Somehow my thoughts got scrambled in the translation on the keyboard.
Bob Hanson
AWP290 The railroad was the Rio Grande Southern. The amount was in the $60-65,000 range (don't know the exact figure.) The reason - highly classified - was that this road was materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb. The Desense Supplies Corporation, a subsidiary of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, purchased most, if not all, of the equipment and leased it back to the railroad as a way to raise cash. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
The railroad was the Rio Grande Southern.
The amount was in the $60-65,000 range (don't know the exact figure.)
The reason - highly classified - was that this road was materials being used in the development of the atomic bomb. The Desense Supplies Corporation, a subsidiary of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, purchased most, if not all, of the equipment and leased it back to the railroad as a way to raise cash.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
Wow, I'm impressed. I thought this question was obscure enough to go unanswered for a few days and Bob gets it in a matter of hours.
Indeed the RGS at the time was the only means of transporting the uranium bearing ore needed for the Manhattan Project from where it was mined in Colorado. It's hard to imagine that the material for the bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima began its journey over the same slim gauge rails of the lowly RGS that were traversed by the Galloping Geese.
I had in mind a lower amount ( $10,000) than what you posted as the payment to the RGS. My info came from one of Lucius Beebe's books which I remember reading a long time ago. Though he was a masterful photographer, Beebe did little research and was not a reliable souce of such information. The $60-65,000 which you cite seems more in line with what I would expect was required to keep the RGS afloat and I'll accept your figures as being more realistic than was Beebe's.
Shoot us another question, Bob.
Mark
Just wanted to say thanks for an excellent question and the quick and accurate answer.
The source of my information was Mallory Hope Ferrell's Silver San Juan. I haven't read it in a while, so I don't recall the precise figure (if he gave one) but it was in that neighborhood. And you're right - Beebe was not a really good researcher. Anything I read in Beebe I check somehwere else before citing it as fact.
Now for my question:
On Southern Railway, the Alco passenger units (DL-109's and later PA's) early in their lives were used primarily on the Tennessean and other trains on the Bristol-Memphis route. They very quickly migrated to the Cincinnati-Jacksonville route and were regularly used on the Ponce de Leon and the Royal Palm and other trains on this route.
What was the reason for this route shift?
They were better mountain haulers, higher tractive effort, than equivalent EMD E-units of the time. Proof? The New Haven used both types of Alcoes as dual-service locomotives, passenger trains on the Shore Line by day, frieghts at night. The Cincinnati - Jacksonville route had steeper grades than Washington - Atlanta - New Orleans or the Bristol - Memphis. The reason for the greater tractive effort over a longer period is that the GE traction motors could withstand higher tempertures longer than the EMD traction motors at that time.
No, that's not the reason - or at least the reason I was given, even though that may be true.
Hint: These units were not held in high esteem on the Southern. In fact, internal correspondence that has fairly recently come to light is quoted in the SRHS magazine as saying, "We made a terrible mistake in buying these engines!" (In this case, the DL-109's.)
1. More time for servicing, less demanding schedule.
2. Problems do not affect the flagship performers but instead affect passenger trains lees important to the railroad's image.
3. Problems do not affect the most demanding freight service using the same tracks.
4. Tmetables and publicity feature EMD power, so the most important pasenger trains should use EMS power.
Dave, I'll give it to you for the first part of No. 1.
When I was with the Southern, about 40 years ago - has it been that long? - J. P. Hoffman, a mechanical engineer and draftsman, told me, "If you want to hear an old Southern Railway mechanical departman man cuss, mention the Alco passenger units!"
Pete said that the units were shifted to the Cinci-Jax run so that they could be pulled off the train in Atlanta and repaired at Pegram Shop, their maintenence base. The unit(s) in question would be replaced with another set of freshly shopped units and these would be replaced on the northbound run and repaired, as by then something on at least one of these units had gone bad.
This was not scheduled maintenence, but repairing things that simply did not work. The units were supposed to make a complete run before servicing, but, according to Pete, rarely made the full circuit.
I cannot explain why the Southern had such a bad experience with the Alco passenger cabs while other roads - GM&O, SP, et al - loved them.
Over to you, Dave.
When the SP streamlined the Cascade in 1950 they assigned A-B-B E7 units developing 6,000 hp and within two months found they were incapable of maintaining the schedule between Oakland and Portland. They replaced the EMDs with A-B-A sets of postwar Alcos also developing 6,000 hp. The Alcos had no trouble maintaining the schedule on the mountainous run due to dynamic brakes and the higher capacity traction motors.
Al - in - Stockton
As I said, Al, I don't know why the Southern had so many problems with its Alco passenger units, expecially since they used their RS-3's into the 1970's, and these had the same type prime movers and electricals as their PA's. Also, they received the same maintenence as their EMD units and in most cases in the same facilities.
The flip side of your SP story is the D&RGW. They bought PA's for the California Zephyr and used them in 6000 HP sets, but they couldn't make the schedule. They were replaced with 6000 HP sets of EMD F's which handled the train nicely. Go figure. This may have had something to do with weight on the driving wheels, etc., but 6000 HP is 6000 HP, no matter how you cut it.
Oh, well, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
A 6000 Hp set of Alco PA's has 12 traction motors, while a 6000 Hp set of EMD F3's or F-7's has 16 traction motors. It is not only horsepower but also tractive effort that makes a difference.
The New Haven was practially all-Alco until the FL-9's and GP-9's arrived with the idea of discontinuing Stqamford - New Haven electrification. Alcos ran reliably on the New Haven.
What was the first practical fleet-wide streamlined passenger train or car, what railroads used them, what was their history? Hint: They operated in passenger service through WWII and after.
As a railroader of almost 23 years' experience, I'm well aware of the number of traction motors on PA's vs. F's.
I also freely admit that PA's ran successfully on other railroads. I already stated that I wondered why Southern had so many problems with their PA's while other roads seemingly had little trouble with them.
This was not an attack on Alco or the PA's, so there's no need to defend them.
AWP290On Southern Railway, the Alco passenger units (DL-109's and later PA's) early in their lives were used primarily on the Tennessean and other trains on the Bristol-Memphis route. They very quickly migrated to the Cincinnati-Jacksonville route and were regularly used on the Ponce de Leon and the Royal Palm and other trains on this route
Johnny
First, please note the new question, what were the first successful non-experimental streamlined cars or trains?
i knew you were not attacking Alco, and just wanted to add the additional information. After all, I did work for EMD, if only briefly, and I have a respect and fondness for all first-generation diesel power, almost as much as I do for the really beautiful modern steam power they replaced.
I am hoping, incidently, that the Acoustic-Eye technology, see posting under steam and preservation on the Trains forum, will create the economics that will make NS WANT to return 611 to active status.
Again, what were the first successful streamlined railcars or trains?
Johnny -
Maybe "the term "Very quickly" is a bit of overkill. The DL's were shifted to the Wash-ATL main in the mid-1940's and to the Cinci-Jax route be the end of WWII. In either assignment, they could be pulled and repaired in Atlanta. They stayed on their intended assignment less than three years, having been purchased in 1941.
The PA's fared slightly better, being purchased in 1953 and re-assigned, as you say, in 1958, but if the average life of a diesel locomotive is 20-25 years, being pulled from their intended servicein five years or less is, in my opinion, "very quickly."
Again, to one and all, this was no reflection on Alco or its passenger cabs. I like them, I think they were interesting and very pleasing to the eye (I personally prefer the pre-war E's in appearance.)
This was simply a trivia question based on an apparently isolated situation.
Peace to one and all.
Any thoughts on my question? Some may regard it as a trick. But it isn't/
The equipment was highly regarded and served its function beyond its expected life.
Hint No. 1: The manufacturer's plant was in Philadelphia
Hint No. 2: In the lifespan of the equipment, three distinct area/routes were served by the generic type of this equipment which had a popular descriptive name. One group stayed in place all their career and served with equally famous relocated streamlined equpment, the latter for a short time. One route served by this equipment still had passenger service today.
daveklepper Hint No. 1: The manufacturer's plant was in Philadelphia Hint No. 2: In the lifespan of the equipment, three distinct area/routes were served by the generic type of this equipment which had a popular descriptive name. One group stayed in place all their career and served with equally famous relocated streamlined equpment, the latter for a short time. One route served by this equipment still had passenger service today.
Bada bing! Still waiting? This one is so easy that I'll take a shot at it:
HINT ONE: Philly? Since it isn't Budd I'll have to say Brill, which manufactured among other things Brilliners (q.v)..
HINT TWO: Nickname: Brilliners were popularly called "Red Arrows", though that may also be the name of the privately-owned firm that operated at least a couple of those routes years ago. The most interesting route and the one I'm thinking of - (was it "rockets"?? )-- the one I'm thinking of is called the "High-Speed Line" and suspect that goes back to 1930s Brill days under the streamlined spelling "Hi-Speed Line." More on that later.
Technology: It depend on what definition of "streamlined" is used. The Brill equipment was tested in the company's own wind tunnels (in fact, that was so early in the idea of streamlining for rail that I think they even had to design and build the wind tunnels). So they were quite literally streamlined in the aerodynamic sense of the word, and a novelty for rapid-transit equipment, though the idea had been used by Porsche vis-a-vis some of their cars, in Germany, earlier in the Thirties. If by "streamlined" one means, instead, a fast diesel trainset that is clad in corrugated (fluted) aluminum or stainless, like the early Zephyrs, that would not apply. Any Brill equipment I've seen color photos of has been flat-sided stock, liveried in red with cream (or off-white) trim.
FOLLOWUP: Some of the Brilliners served well past their expected lifespan, on into the seventies. (SEPTA used to publish a sked/ for the public with a blue-and-white photo of same -- before (Brill) and after [i.e., 2007 when Chuck and I were there]. Today, in the present tense, unless it has changed since October 2007, the route west from Norristown, that Hi(gh) Speed line, is an "R" line that runs with that eastern terminus in Norristown (from a dedicated multimodal facility that also hosts buses and an exx-Reading "R" train line two levels down, which stop is about two shy of it its terminal farther north into Norristown) -- . . . Annnnd the High-Speed Line runs west-southwest to the the Transportation Terminal (exact term??) on the far NW side of Philadelphia City (proper) border where it connects with two other R lines, one heavy-el, one light interurbans, if interurbans can be separated into light and heavy.
Today, The Hi(gh)-Speed Line itself is heavy, at least metaphorically, distinctive in many ways. Interestingly, the (single-coach) equipment has a keystone-shaped(!) front aspect that either looks like or is narrower at the bottom (near coupler) than at the top end (though this may be optics and clever cladding/painting more than design). Kudos to Kawasaki, SEPTA, or whomever. It is also the only non-heavy rail line I know of under SEPTA that charges a double token. Somehow, even though the route is pretty much single-track, the line runs a kind of skip-stop service during rush periods in addition to running at regular intervals and making all stops during the rest of the day. That area is partly suburbanized, partly pastureland, although for all I know the pastureland is owned by multi-rich on large-acreage estates as opposed to being truly rural or semi-rural. (It is, after all, not too terribly far from Philly).
The point I should have mentioned first: this Norristown - Philly NW line runs like a bat out of Hell, and it did during Brill days, which set the tradition, I guess. I guesstimated the speed on our trip to average about 45 mph which would roughly equal Chicago's Skokie Swift which traverses its 7 miles with no stops (but also happens to be a part of an older interurban system). The High-Speed's brakes are fantastic -- they really gripped, no lurching or screeching -- whether they were reverse induction or "real" brake-from-speed brakes I don't know. Acceleration was pretty awesome, too. I'm just glad we had seats! Overall, very special. I have experienced nothing in heavy-rail whether Amtrak, or commutation diesel or cat., that felt that fast... and probably really was fast given that it made numerous stops. (If I haven't mentioned it yet, altho' much of the track is single, somehow SEPTA manages to add some express skip-stop service during the rush periods. Awesome.)
there's more but it's optional--
[[Sidebar: At the Transpo. Center the Hi-Speed interburban the High-Speed Line connects with two other SEPTA rail lines, the El to Center City Phila. and beyond (Market??) And also another "R" line, a bucolic one, with more trolley-looking equipment, though since it adheres to published skeds and has more rush-hour service than non, and traverses a surprising amount of rough, bucolic and undeveloped territory thru which there are only intermittent stops, and other technical stuff,it was pre WorldWar II and still is an interurban. Despite the fact is has one track, uses trolley (hanging) wire, and narrows down to one track at the end of the line in Media, but since the cars are dual-ended that doesn't matter. (This is not to be confused with the more commuter-heavy-railroad-like "R" line that runs from a more built-up section of Media into Philly via 30th Street and Center City, I think (haven't ridden that one). For the interurban Media line, the equipment is but that is within its history as a "classic" interurban, with little stone shelters for stations and fairly well-spaced out stops. (Much of the line is beyond pasture-bucolic, more like heavy woods-bucolic). "trolley-like" to modern eyes, contemporary standards (single-pole, hanging wire not cat.) but for which the distinction between interurban and trolley is largely semantic, but since a lot of the route traversed is still rough and bucolic with intermittent stops, they call it Interurban and I agree. (Opinion: Fascinating variety of routes and rolling stock with SEPTA, especially factoring in PATCO to N. Jersey as well....I am envious compared to our Metra, a heavy-rail only system that is pretty standardized. Even the old IC electric line is bi-level, like the push-pull diesel of other Metra lines. In fact, I'll mention that the old CSS&SB (NICTD) line is going over to dbl-levels like everyone else.)]. Quick, everybody hurry and ride it before the bi-levs take over because that will probably be the beginning of the end of street-running in Michigan City, IN. )]
Sorry for the rambling but it is VERY late, even for me.
Dave, hopefully someone will come along soon who will clarify, correct and possibly add to the answer(s) you were seeking. If you do decide to give me the win, please wait until at least midday Monday for me to post a new question.
Thanks, al-in-chgo
You are the winner. But the name of these cars: "Bullets"
They were built for the Philadlephia and Western, were successful and ran from 1929 to sometime in the 1980's! The were designed with a wind-tunnel which Brill had built following the just-created designs for aircraft testing, In 1964 they were joined by the two Electroliners purchased by Red Arrow from the North Shore, which went out of business in 1963. Red Arrow called them Liberty Liners. SEPTA did not wish to use them and they ended up in musuems. The Brill "Bullets" contniued to serve into the SEPTA era, when parts became a problem. Some Market-Frankfor El cars on PCC rapid transit trucks furnished by the CTA and a few CTA cars were a temporary fix until the present Adtrans cars assembled by Amtrak came on line.
Silmilar cars, but slightly lighter and with trolley poles and steps instead third rail shoes and only high-platform loading were built in 1930 for the Johnstown Fonda and Gloversville interurban running out of Schenectady, NY. The interurban passenger operations of this railroad were ended about 1938 when NY State rebuilt the bridge entering Schenectidy without streetcar tracks, which the interurban used to get downtown. The cars were sold to the Bamberger Rairload and ran between Salt Lake City and Ogden the end of passenger service on this interurban, about 1958. They were also called "Bullets."
The Red Arrow "Brilliners" are 55mph Philadelphia trolley wide -gauge cars and operated to Ardmore and West Chester, abandoned, and to Media and Sharaon Hill, still in operation by SEPTA with Kawasaki cars. The "Bullets" were standard gauge.
HIgh Speeds is the term generally used for the Indiana Railroad cars, which in turn were based on the Red Devils for the Cincinatti and Lake Erie, which technically were based on the "Bullets." but without the streamlining. The actual operating costs savings of the streamlining was found not to be a worth the added costs in construction of all the compound curves. So the C&LE and IR cars were boxier in shape, and wound up on the Lehigh Valley Transit (where they also ran with the "Bullets" on the P&W) and on Ceder Rapids and Iowa City.
These three designs, along with the Electroliners and standard North Shore equipment, were the fastest North American interurban cars. Modern commuter electric equpment of Metro North, Long Island, and SEPTA is as fast or faster, but not any light rail equpment anywhere that I know of, except possibly Karlsruh, Germany's dual power cars (750Vdc + 25,000V 50Hz AC) which share tracks with high-speed trains in certain locations as well as running like streetcars.
We await your quesiton. .
quote from above: "You are the winner. But the name of these cars: "Bullets"'.
Dave, thanks for deciphering my mess into a win. I was going to ask a question about a certain German town (not Karlsruhe) but I realize the scope of my question began after 1960.
So here's what I hope is an easy American question: What college town used to have a dedicated trolley tunnel that connected the university with downtown (definitely requiring "traction" -- very steep grade -- but trolleys, not cable cars). For extra credit, what is the disposition of the line and the tunnel today?
Hint: That town is also a state capital.
PS: I just thought of another "bullet," farther away than the Midwest but probably not as far from Philly as Utah. Up in Canada, the "Newfie Bullet" was the self-deprecating name Newfoundlanders gave their narrow-gauge passenger train. IIRC that train lasted well into the CN postwar era, but not to VIA.
Providence, Rhode Island, for one, connecting Brown University with the downtown area. Converted to a trolleybus tunnel. I think had ventilation equpment installed for use as a diesel bus tunnel and used as such today. May also be used by general traffic, but not heavy trucks. Unsure of this.
I was told that exhaust fans had to be retro-installed when the line was no longer powered by electricity. When I was there, no heavy vehicles were allowed, just local traffic during the day. Since the upper portal of the tunnel dumps traffic almost at the foot of Brown U., I suspect that institution had a say in preventing late-night traffic. (I shudder to think what would happen if a truck popped its clutch on that steep upgrade, especially in heavy traffic.)
So . . . I guess you're back on with the next question, Dave! Thanks. al
(NB: link to system map incl. six tunnel routes is http://www.ripta.com/content1307.html ).
My question:
First, a bit of background. It is an open question whether more four-wheel Birney cars or more PCC cars were sold world-wide. A lot depends on how you define a PCC car. Just USA-built streetcars and interurban PCC cars? Include rapid transit cars like the CTA 6000's and the Cleveland Bluerbirds that used PCC technology? What about all the Czeck-built cars that ran all over the Communist-block countries?
With Birney cars, I wish to restrict the definition to only four-wheeled cars built under the Birney patents. These included many cars built by Brill, the firm that ended up holding the patents, its subsidiarirs such as American Car Co and Khulman, and rivals such as Osgood Bradley who paid Birney and then Brill fees for use of the patents. (Example: Connecticut Company 2350 at the Shore Line Trolley Musuem, East Haven and Branford, Connecticut.) Some of this technology was also applied to double-truck safety cars, and some, those without tapered platforms, are called by many railfans "double-truck Birneys," but never saw any transit system's official roster calling such cars any kind of BIrney, just the 4-wheeled variaty.
I minority of North American streetcar systems never ran Birneys. Not the Market Street Railway nor San Francisco Muny, nor New Orleans, for example.
Worldwide, how many separate, by town and by company or authority, operatons ran Birney cars? Multiple choice question:
82, 132, 182, 232, 282, 332, 382, 432, 482, 532, 582
If you know the right answer, then also you may optionally list those countries outside the USA and Canada that ran true Birney cars.
Stumped? Get help from:
streetcars.telcen.com/books/birney
Any fan of streetcars will want to download and print out the complete book. Most worhtwhile.
No charge!
daveklepper Stumped? Get help from: streetcars.telcen.com/books/birney Any fan of streetcars will want to download and print out the complete book. Most worhtwhile. No charge!
Wow, what an evocative photo that was on the front of the book. What it exactly it evokes has created more questions for me.
1. (and I apoligize if this is common railfan or wirehead knowledge): Did ATSF own the interurban?
2. Did ATSF own the "Municipal Baths" -- Or was that some kind of a public-service message, as a pro-hygiene gesture??
I may be mistaken, but didn't the Western Pacific own that interurban? I imagine the Municipal Baths were owned by the city, and possibly the advertizing was partial payment for streetpaving or franchise charges. Now that you have accessed the raw material, by all means figure out the right number for the answer! And the overseas countries!
Correction, the cover picture is of a Stockton, CA streetcar, and that local streetcar system, like so much of California at the time, was owned by of course the SOUTHERN PACIFIC
NUMBER OF BIRNEY OPERATIONS, PLEASE?
You have the right book. Cannot anybody count? Hint: It is more than 200.
Apparently, NOBODY else is willing to pour through the Cox book and count the entries. So I will give the answer to the first part of the question, 382. One could quibble, since I counted, for example, the North Shore's operations in Milwaukee and in Waugeegan as separate, but Steinway Lines and Third Avenue Railway system as one since both were being run by the same management, both located in New York City, and the Birney's on Steinway were leased from Third Avenue and owned by them. So give or take four or five, with the Indiana Railroad and some other properties raising similar questions. (Third Avenue was a Manhattan-Bronx-Westchester ---Yonkers-Mt. Vernon-Pelham-New Rochelle --- operation with brief appearaches in Brooklyn and Queens, while Steinway operated only in Queens.)
The second part of the question remains. Outside of the USA and Canada where were Birneys operated? Remember the political divisions before WWII were mot quite the same as today!
OK, I guess Birney streetcars are just not of that interest to most readers of this Forum. Included in the 382 locations of BIrney streetcar operation were Austrialia, New Zealand, Hollland, and Newfoundland. the latter being a Crown Colony that had not yet joined Canada. San Juan Peurto Rico might be included, since it was then a USA possession and not strictly part of the USA. Or was it?
So. new question: What was the LAST regularly steam-hauled first-class streamlined train carrying both coaches and sleepers or coaches and parlor cars., in North America?
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