One more hint. Train name: Three words after "THE", but more than four places described.
Again: replacement for a section of a more famous train which continiued to have its own name.
Started as an all-sleeper heavywieght with traditional obs, then a coach and sleeper streamliner with round-end observation, and then a mixture of stainless and painted cars, without obs, and with drop off set setouts, one or two sleepers with the CITY end points as the train with the name but partly on a different route.
AND in its heavyweight and pure stainless streamliner days, did not have a passenger stop at an important city which later became both an important stop and a place to setout one way and pickup the other way through sleepers.
Always seved regional specialties in dining car.
Essential services continued for a while after the named train was discontinued.
Route served by Amtrak passenger services today. Except for a different terminal station in one end-point city and at the important citiy once bypassed.
Dave,
Don't you think it's time to close this one out? It's been 12 days since you posed this question and despite your several hints no one other than me has offered even a guess as to the name of the train you have in mind. My reply mentioning the Penn-Texas was posted on 8/11 which is now 11 days ago. The absence of any other replies makes it pretty obvious (to me at least) that no one knows the name of this train.
Mark
OG stands to correct me. Do I need to give any more hints on the name of the train? All right, here is a give away: The train was inaugurated as a replacement for a separate section of an even more famous train. As an all-Pullman heavyweight and as a fully streamlined single consist coach and Pullman steamliner it skipped an important city's station, but when it set out picked up cars and lost its obs it stopped at the station regularly and setout in one direction and picked up on the other.
daveklepper I think this was also true of the IT cars, which ran Springfield, IL - St. Louis, always, sometimes from Bloomington. (I don't think Peoria had IT sleeper service.)
I think this was also true of the IT cars, which ran Springfield, IL - St. Louis, always, sometimes from Bloomington. (I don't think Peoria had IT sleeper service.)
At the time I read this I thought you were mistaken but I didn't have a chance until just now to check it out. The March 1937 OG shows Illinois Terminal trains # 88 & 89 , the Owl, as having sleeping cars running between Peoria and St. Louis. Two types of sleepers are shown in the equipment section: 10 section cars with upper and lower berths and "single bedroom" cars with private rooms. No sleepers are shown as originating in Springfield, Bloomington or points on the Danville line. That is not to say that sleepers didn't run at other times between St. Louis and any of these other cities.
Further hint: Stareted as all Pullman heavyweight, then coach and Pullman mostly Budd fluted side coach and Pullman with obs, then without obs and pick-ups and set-outs with flat-sided cars included.
Sorry, thsi was included in the previous posting. What might be interesting is to compare the westbound times of the Iraquois and the Advanced Empire Sttate Exp. to Albany from the previous station stop (Hudson or Harmon) with other trains' schedules to see how much time was lost in dropping cars for the Mount Royal and the Green Mountain.
Again, not counting "The", there are three words in the Train's name and the name refers to more than two different locations. Further hint: The train was inaugurated as an all-Pullman heavyweight with observation car. It was modernized as an all fluted-side, mostly Budd-built, coach and Pullman streamliner, with a tapered end observation car. As train-offs occured, the observation car was dropped, and pick-ups and setouts occured, replacing other trains. One train replaced had the same end-point city destinations as the multiple-location-train name. And through cars on the replaced train's route continued to be handled, in part by this train, and in part by a train with only one word (plus the) in its name. The cacelled train's was a combination of both "our" train's name and the other remaining train that handled the through cars, also having three words plus "the."
Also about the time that the obs was dropped and pick-ups and setouts occured, the train lost its all silver fluted-side appearance. (In any case this was never true of the power.) Flat-sided painted cars were mixed in. But the diner continnued to give good service with reagonal specialties.
The train did not last until Amtrak, but a substitute service did.
YOu are correct up to a point, but there were through cars, and Pullman passengers did not need to change trains. Also, only two locations are given in the name, Pennsylvania and Texas. (Possibly only one destination, Texas, with Penn referring to the railroad, not the state, since the train originated in New York City.) The equally well-known train I am asking for has more than two destinations in its name. Give-away hint, not conting a "The", the multiple destination are contained in a train name having only three words. Yes, more than two locations in a train name with only three words.
Possibly a better railroad examples than the Denver and Rio Grande and D&RGW, as you did point out, would be the Missouri Pacific and the Texas Pacific and the Kansas Pacific, the latter folded into the UP long before the others.
I will count you as the winner if no one else comes up with the more accurate answer.
daveklepper My question should be a snap. A number of North American railroads had place names that were never reached, or never reached directly. Rio Grande Southern, Denver and Rio Grande, Denver and Rio Grande Western, St. Louis San Francisco, New York Chicago and St. Louis, New York Westechester and Boston, Wiscassett and Quebec, New York Chicago Air LIne, and there are others. What well-known passenger train had multiple locations in its name but only served one directly, the others reachable, but only by connecting trains?
My question should be a snap. A number of North American railroads had place names that were never reached, or never reached directly. Rio Grande Southern, Denver and Rio Grande, Denver and Rio Grande Western, St. Louis San Francisco, New York Chicago and St. Louis, New York Westechester and Boston, Wiscassett and Quebec, New York Chicago Air LIne, and there are others. What well-known passenger train had multiple locations in its name but only served one directly, the others reachable, but only by connecting trains?
The Pennsy's Penn - Texas which served a number of cities in Pennsylvania but ran only as far west as St. Louis. Texas destinations were reached by connecting trains of the MoPac and Frisco.
To quote Dave Klepper: "Where did the decombination with the NYC through trains take place? The Green Mountain and Mount Royal did not run into Albany, and the NYC thorugh trains, except for the Laurentian, which was NYC-D&H via Troy at the time, did not run into Troy. So they must have had an operational stop, probably not for passengers, at Rensselaer, for the decombination operation."
The southbound Green Mountain and Laurentian were combined in Troy, and the southbound Mount Royal and a sleeper from D&H #8 (from Montréal) also were combined here. As to the northbound trains, the NYC's representation in the Guide simply states that the cars were caried in Rutland trains from Troy--with no menetion as to how they reached Troy from Rensselaer.
As to the Rio Grande reaching the Rio Grande River, the line down to Santa Fé crossed the Rio Grande River.
Johnny
Where did the decombination with the NYC through trains take place? The Green Mountain and Mount Royal did not run into Albany, and the NYC thorugh trains, except for the Laurentian, which was NYC-D&H via Troy at the time, did not run into Troy. So they must have had an operational stop, probably not for passengers, at Rensselaer, for the decombination operation.
Just in passing, note that Baltimore also has a Mount Royal, and this was the site of the first North American railway electrification, and possibly the first electrification in the world that handled regular freight and passenger trains, not specialized equpment. The electrification lasted until post-WWII diezelisation. Possibly someone can check and see if the B&O also had at one time a train named Mount Royal, possibly one of the Jersey City - Washington Royal Blue Line trains.
And then there is Moutain View, one of the two regular-asigned bedroom, master room, lounge, observation cars for the Raymond Lowry 1948 Broadway Limited. I was a small investment shareholder in Pullman Classics Limited, which owned the car for a time. Rode it both on the Broadway and in charter service. (Rode it in the rear seat leaving Chicago, and I certainly did not have the scratch for a Master Bedroom! Happy to be able to afford one of the Duplex rooms in one of the Creek cars ahead on the train. Expense account did cover that.) The other car was Tower View. Both are preserved.
In February, 1950, the Rutland did not have any train named Green Mountain Limited, Green Mountain Express, or Green Mountain Flyer, but that does not eliminate Green Mountain as the name of train that was then operated.
I do not doubt that Dave saw Rutland locomotives in Troy, but, as he said, that does not mean that the Rutland operated them into Troy.
Rotterdam Jct., west of Schenectady, was a B&M-NYC connection.
Now, to close this out.
The February, 1950, Guide shows two trains that were operated between Montréal (Canada) and New York (NE USA) over the CN, Rutland, B&M, and NYC. The junctions were, in order, Rouses Point, North Bennington, and Troy. There were through coaches, Rutland-Boston via the B&M east of Bellows Falls; they, of course, did not go from/to any Canadian city. The day train was the Green Mountain(it was called the Green Mountain Flyer in the NYC’s representation for the southbound; the Rutland may have changed the name not long before), which was combined with the Central’s Laurentian southbound and the Advance Empire State Express northbound where the trains’ routes were the same. The night train was the Mount Royal, which was combined with the Iroquois northbound where the trains’ routes were the same.
Dave is the only one who has presented the answers, even disjointedly, to the question, so he may now present another puzzle to us.
Quote CSSHEGEWISCH: "The current Amtrak timetable shows the "Adirondack" as using Central Station."
Yes, my wife and I have taken this train in and out of Central Station several times. The last two trips, she was treated to being taken up and down on an escalator while in a wheel chair--which was quite an experience, especially the first time, as we expected the redcap to use an elevator.
The current Amtrak timetable shows the "Adirondack" as using Central Station.
Rode the Montrealer many many times, and the southbound Washingtonian, which kept that name until Amtrak's revivial which was the Montrealer both ways, if my memory is correct. One memory fails me. Although the D&H Laurentian used Windsor Station, does not today's Adorondak use Central?
The Adornadack Div. did have passenger service into Ottowa at one point. I'm not sure offhand if the Montreal train was part of this train or not....it might have been up from Syracuse via Massina. The Mount Royal sounds familiar as a D&H train. The Montrealer was a CN-CV-B&M-NH-PRR train.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
1. I am absolutely certain that the Rutland operated its fine 4-8-2 mountain type locomotives into Troy, because I saw them myself when going to and from Saratoga Springs via the NYC and D&H through trains, which usually had a Hudson south of Troy and a D&H 4-8-4 north of Tory. Possibly you are right, thoughm, and a B&M crew may have ran the train into Tory from the Junction (Rotterdam Junnction?) but with the power and other equpment running through.
2. I did give up on the Moutaineer. The train I am suggesting now is the Green Mountain Flyer, for the Rutland, Boston - Rutland via Bellows Falls, and perhaps on to Montreal, but of that I am not certain.
3. From what you have written, if the Mount Royal was not the train that was combined with the Advance Empire State Express and the Laurentian, then possibly the Mount Royal was a through train that ran uncombined between New York and Montreal, possibly on the D&H, possibly on the Rutland.
Or does Canada itself count? There may still be a Montreal - Toronto train by that name. Or Montreal - Ottawa.
Henry, you are right, I had forgotton about the milk train, which did also carry passengers. And one reason it went to Catham instead of Troy, is the at least one milk car went east to Boston on the B&A and not to New York. Passengers had to change trains in Chatam, since the rider coach did not go through.
But there were at one time through NY-GCT trains to and from Montreal. Indeed, a bit of history. At one time the NYC did have its own line right into Montreal and did use CP's Windsor Station. But later, its trackage paralleling the CN was abandoned with trackage rights on the CN substituted, and I think the remaining passenger service was moved to CN's Central Station as a result. Possibly by that time a change of trains in Utica was necessary.
I rode what is now the Adarondack Scenic Railroad to Tupper Lake, once, and back, with a change in Utica necessary. But I came by train from Boston, not New York.
Dave, please give up on the Mountaineer; as I said yesterday, that word was not in the name of either train.
As to the Rutland’s entry into Troy, the timetable shows that another road carried the trains between the Rutland connection and Troy. Trackage rights do not enter into the full answer.
My source is the February, 1950, edition of the Guide.
No, Mount Royal was not the name of any of the NYC’s three trains into Montréal, which used the CP station. There was no through train shown in my source.
I did not name the desired train that was combined with certain NYC trains, but I will say now that it was not the Mount Royal.
But didn't at least the Rut milk train go via Chatham til the end?
As far as I know, at least since 1930, the Catham connection to the Rut was used for freight service only. The through trains operated by the Central on the Harlem line, turned east at Catham, ran to Pittsfield, and then up to North Adams. Post-WWII there were two trains a day that went that far if my memory is correct, and one had dining and parlor service.
The Rutland-B&M train to Boston, I finally remembered, was the Green Mountain FLYER. And it of course did not serve Troy, but the Mountaneer did.
Remember, too, the Rut came down to Bennington, VT and across to Chatham, NY handing off trains to the Harlem for NYC entry.
And there probably was at one time a Rultand train named the Green Mountain Limited or Green Mountain Express, running from Boston to either Rutland or Montreal, and this would be B&M (Bellows Falls) and Rutland, with CN added if it ran through to Montreal (via Rutland). But again, CV trackage rights were used to access the CN.
Note that the all Central route to Lake Placid had the train coming to Lake Placid from the west. When the train went via the D&H, it came to Lake Placid from the east. But the Mount Royal was not an overnight sleeping car train, since you called out the trains with which it was combined. It must have been the day train on the through route via Messina, with parlor cars and coaches, and through cars to Lake Placid.
The Rutland certainly did go to Troy, regularly, and interchanged with New York Central there. It was the regular passenger interchange point for the Rutland. It got there via trackage rights a few miles over the B&M, and I am blocking on the name of the junction. What I said about the Mountaneer is correct, but possibly not for the timetables of the specific time you are looking at. And the Rutland also needed trackage right for a short distance on the Central Vermont to interchange with the CN at Rouses Point (if that was the correct interchange location).
About two years ago, an issue of Classic Trains had photos taken by a railfan who had been a student (possibly at RPI) and showed the Rutland's Mountaneer at Troy. And mentioned that it was combined with the southbound Laurential off the D&H.
Could the Mount Royal have been used as the name of the New York Central's own train to Montreal via Massena? A long way around, but there was a through night train with one or more New York City GCT - Montreal sleeping cars at one time. And it used CN trackage in Canada. At one time it dropped off sleeping cars for Lake Placid. These were later shifted to the route via the D&H, but at at the time the NYC ran through to Montreal, they went via the NYC.
Dave, you have hit on eight things: Montréal and NYC as terminii, Mount Royal as a train name, and the Rutland, CN, NYC, and B&M as four participating roads, and Troy as an interchange point..
But "Mountain" is the word in the name of one of the trains, not "Mountains" or Mountaineer." Also, the NYNH&H and CV had no part in these trains. And, the Rutland did not get into Troy.
You are right that the Laurentian was combined, southbound, with one of the trains (northbound, the train was combined with the Advance Empire State Express).
Then there was the Mountaneer, two sections, Montreall - New York, CN, CV trackage rights, Rutland, Troy, then NYC to NYC-GCT, and Montreal - Boston, CN, CV trackage rights, Rutland, Bellows Falls, and B&M to Boston. It ran as one train Montreal - Rutland. The Tory - New York New York Central train often combined the Mountaneer and the Laurentian off the D&H, which ran via Troy and not via Albany and Schenectdady in those days.
The Day White Mountains Express was a NYC-GCT - Littleton, NH Connecticut Valley train operated by the NYNH&H and B&M via Springfield. Rode it in 1945 from Clairmont Jc. to GCT. after riding from Concord, NH in second-hand B&M ex-PRR P54 coaches pulled by a 2-6-0, The Day White Mountains express had a mixture of B&M and NH cars, possibly with an American Flyer or two, but our camp special car was not air-conditioned, a heavyweight. Power was a Pacific both on the B&M and the NH to New Haven, where an EP-3 took us to GCT.
One train with Mount as part of its name was a winter-only ski train operated by the B&M, but I forget the name of the mountain. Although operated primarily for ski vacationers, it was a regularly scheduled timetabled train, and I think it ran Boston - White River Junction and return, either via Concord or via Bellows Falls.
Another may have been the Mount Royal, either Portland, ME - Montreal on the Grand Trunk and CN, or Boston - Montreal on the B&M-CV-CN.
New question:
In 1950, two particular trains were still being operated in the Northeast United States and into Canada. Part of the name of one was "Mount," and part of the name of the other was "Mountain." The full name of one could tell you the name of one of its terminals, and the full name of the other could tell you the name of some of the scenery you saw if you rode it.
Give the full names of the two trains, the roads that operated them, and the terminii of both.
Extra credit: the junctions between the operating railroads.
FYI, Brady was originally a 16 section sleeper, built in December, 1917 or January, 1918, and was rebuilt in December of 1932 to Circumnavigators Club, according to Pullman Panorama, Volume 1 (p. 78)
henry6 Where was Homeland Security when you really needed it?...... ....Oh.
Where was Homeland Security when you really needed it?......
....Oh.
Having a beer! Thx IGN
How can you say that a major american corporation would do such a thing!!! Do you think that this company would violate the rights of americans to not be tempted by alcoholism and dependancy!!!
Porter bring us another round of bourbon on the rocks please.
Johnny you got it.
Thx IGN
In 1930 and 1931, the Pullman Company built new 13 cars with 8 sections, buffet lounge, and observation--all with the name ending in "Club." I imagine that several older cars, including the Brady were rebuilt about the same time--during Prohibition. I would say that the feature which was not shown on any plan was one which allowed for the secret storage of quantities of beverages that the 18th Amendment to the Constitution forbade being manufactured, transported, imported into, or exported from the United States and its territories for beverage use.
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