And I should know that why? Not just because I drive past the historical marker in Owego, NY proclaiming such twice a day most days. Or that I am in Deposit, NY about once a month. Still, the idea was to end on the shores of Lake Erie and not at Erie,PA
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New York and Erie, chartered 1832. The New York part of the Erie's name was easily skipped, like Chicago in the Rock Island's.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/aja2207.0001.001/13?page=root;rgn=full+text;size=100;view=image
henry6 It was not the New York and Erie, it was the New York, LAKE ERIE, and Western. but....do we count switching yards connected only by water vessels as being "operating in"? Trains did not arrive or depart, only loose cars via float. Is that "rail service" or "float service"? My tendency would be to not accept it as rail. But it is a good question to debate!
It was not the New York and Erie, it was the New York, LAKE ERIE, and Western. but....do we count switching yards connected only by water vessels as being "operating in"? Trains did not arrive or depart, only loose cars via float. Is that "rail service" or "float service"? My tendency would be to not accept it as rail. But it is a good question to debate!
I thought I would float the idea out there.
Thx IGN
FlyingCrow Commerce, of course, was the home of Mickey Mantle. And, yes, it's the NEO. Apparently there are discrepancies in dates , but what the hey.....NEO is correct and narig01 has the floor.
Commerce, of course, was the home of Mickey Mantle. And, yes, it's the NEO. Apparently there are discrepancies in dates , but what the hey.....NEO is correct and narig01 has the floor.
A major western American city has had many trains in their name but none of these trains directly served the city execpt thru connections . I'll award the prize to the 1st to name the city. Also try to name as many of the trains as possible.
I know. But having grown up in the New York Harbor area, I am wont not to accept it as part of the railroad...but, as you descirbe it, and as I think about it, west bank of the Hudson rails did barge to the New Haven at Port Norris I think, and to Brooklyn. So, yeah, Harlem Transfer took the DL&W to NYC and its neighbors were LV and Erie!
Henry --
Earlier in this thread (above), I mentioned that Santa Fe and Western Pacific passenger trains never actually reached San Francisco (though they were advertised as San Francisco trains), because passengers had to transfer to a ferry/interurban car/bus for the ride into the city.
But I was not thinking about the fact that both ATSF and WP did have their own trackage (not just rights, and not just switching yards), and did serve customers, in San Francisco -- which was only accessible to them via car floats across the Bay. (Southern Pacific had a lock on the only land access, up the S.F. Peninsula.)
At least, it is ownership as well as operations, which distinguishes it from trackage rights operation, which I think we would both agree doesn't qualify.
If you don't accept car floats as integral to railroad operation, then would you say that Southern Pacific did not enter New Orleans until the Huey Long Bridge was built? Or maybe not even then, because the bridge and its rails are owned by the independent New Orleans Public Belt Railroad?
Yes but the New York and Erie did provide rail service in New York City both in Manhattan and the Bronx. I was debating whether to thru it out there.
My answer to next question.
The Northeast Oklahoma Railroad. Stopped passenger service in 1940 & was merged into SL-SF in 1967.
Rgds IGN
PS Provided service to Commerce, OK
Flying Crow, no, the Erie derived its name from being the New York, Lake Erie, and Western shortened to "the Erie" and "Erie" by vernacular usage, time, and eventual reorganizations. It was chartered and built from Piermont on the Hudson to Dunkirk on Lake Erie.
MARK: THANKS FOR THE CORRECTION. POSSIBLY THE WOLVERINE CHANGED POWER IN DETROIT FROM A MOWHAWK TO A HUDSON?
Let's not forget that railroads were named, sometimes, for predecessor canal companies...such as the C&O, and, I believe the ERIE.
NEW QUESTION
Mickey Mantle certainly saw this line in operation and might have ridden it when it was an interurban. By 1963; however, it was part of the FRISCO.
One note Mark, about the Erie...it was named for Lake Erie not Erie, PA and initially laid rails from Piermont on the west shore of the Hudson, about 20 miles north of New York CIty, to Dunkirk, NY, about halfway between Buffalo, NY and Erie, PA., never having put its eye on landing in Erie, PA....the Erie was built as the New York, Lake Erie and Western and was referred to as "the Erie" decades before gaining that as the coporate name.
OK it's time to wrap this question up. Here's the box score:
Buck Dean - 5 correct (M&StL, NC&StL, AC&Y, SP&S, S&A)
Davek - 3 correct (D&SL, NYC&StL, FW&D)
Carl - 2 correct (CStPM&O, TH&B)
Narig - 1 correct (C&E)
Buck is our winner and gets to pose the next question.
The three oter RR's that no one identified were the Pittsburg & Shamut (which didn't reach Pittsburg), the Quincy, Omaha & Kansas City (a Burlington controlled road which didn't run to Omaha) and the Erie (which reached Lake Erie at several points but Erie, PA was not one of them).
I can hear the protestations now about including the Erie. I personally think that Erie referred to the lake not the city. But, on the other hand, one could argue that if that was the case why wasn't it named the Lake Erie RR like the W&LE, P&LE and C&LE?
Mark
Perhaps the ferry-bus-truck extension of railroad service's reach would make another (interesting?) thread.
One more comment about bus/ferry "extensions" of rail service. Out here on the "left coast", we never got our own version of the Hudson Tunnels. The San Francisco Chief, San Francisco Challenger, City of San Francisco, as well as all of the other well known "San Francisco-bound trains" from the north and east, such as the California Zephyr, Cascade, Sahsta Daylight, and Golden Gate, only reached San Francisco Bay. ATSF, SP, WP all required transfers at Oakland or Richmond to a ferry or interurban car or bus (depending on the time frame).
The only true service from San Francisco to (and across) the Mississippi was during the earlier periods, when SP ran the Sunset Limited as a New Orleans -- San Francisco train, going through Los Angeles, and up the Coast Route. (Towards the end of pre-Amtrak service, SP used the tri-weekly Sunset equipment -- including Pennsy's New York - Los Angeles through sleeper! -- as the Coast Daylight. But I've read that, at that time in the '60's & '70's, they required passengers to get off in Los Angeles and re-board,)
daveklepper Before the move, there definitely were times when Michigan Central Hudsons and Pacifics ran through, and diesel power as well. But what determined whether power went through are not was always a real puzzle. Except that I don't remember any Mowhawks running through, and that was the usual power for the Wolverine. .
Before the move, there definitely were times when Michigan Central Hudsons and Pacifics ran through, and diesel power as well. But what determined whether power went through are not was always a real puzzle. Except that I don't remember any Mowhawks running through, and that was the usual power for the Wolverine. .
Dave,
The Michigan Central trains serving Chicago were always headed by NYC run-through engines regardless of whether they terminated at Central or LaSalle St. stations. When they used Central Sta. they ran over IC rails only about 15 miles from 115th St.-Kensington which was where the IC and MC lines diverged. The only NYC trains that were headed by IC engines were those on the Big Four Chicago - Cincinatti route.
Having ridden Detroit - Chicago service on the Central both before and after the move from Central to LaSalle, I would like to give the following from dredging my memory. I don't think the move happened all at once. The first step was moving the Wolverine, at the time the only remainiing through train from the east (New YOrk and Boston) that ran through Detroit. Then later the trains from Detroit and the one with through cars from Toronto. Before the move, there definitely were times when Michigan Central Hudsons and Pacifics ran through, and diesel power as well. But what determined whether power went through are not was always a real puzzle. Except that I don't remember any Mowhawks running through, and that was the usual power for the Wolverine. I abandoned the Central's passenger service and switched to the Grand Trunk Western's Mowhawk when snack bar service replaced diners on the Central, except when traveling between Ann Arbor and Chicago.
Deggesty Mark, I just looked at the November, 1967, issue, and the Michigan Central was already using the LaSalle Street station then. Could it be that the IC was unable to provide an engine that day?
Mark, I just looked at the November, 1967, issue, and the Michigan Central was already using the LaSalle Street station then. Could it be that the IC was unable to provide an engine that day?
I wasn't aware that MC Route trains had been moved to LaSalle St. Sta. and just assumed they continued to use Central Sta. until Amtrak times. It's possible the IC was short an engine that day but I'm inclined to think it more likely the operating practices had been changed by that time and NYC engines were run through to Chicago on all the remaining trains. I imagine that by 1967 the number of daily trains on that Big Four Route had dwindled to two (or three at the most) one of which was the JWR. But I don't have an OG for that time period to verify this.
There are three more roads that haven't been mentioned yet. Two of them are eastern roads - one is a bit obscure but the other should be easy to name. The third one is west of the Mississippi (but just west of it) and I had never heard of it until I did the research for this question.
I'm going to close out this question tonight so we can move on to another. At that time I'll post the names of any remaining roads and tally up everyone's answers to determine our winner.
daveklepper If a railroad runs its own buses (or trucks, for that matter) into a city, is it serving the city? The buses that the SusiQ ran into New York were either operated by or for the railroad and no other passengers rode them. So possibly the railroad can be termed as serving New York City!
If a railroad runs its own buses (or trucks, for that matter) into a city, is it serving the city? The buses that the SusiQ ran into New York were either operated by or for the railroad and no other passengers rode them. So possibly the railroad can be termed as serving New York City!
Of course the NYS&W would not qualify as an answer to the current question because of the word "Western" in its name. But it's still an interesting issue which isn't limited to buses or trucks because ferry and carfloat service should, by the same reasoning, be considered.
You asking a question wanswheel? NYSW yes into JC via Erie connecting just outside the Bergen Cut. Pics shown at Susquehanna Transfer, the NYSW station right under the Route S3 approach to the Lincoln Tunnel on the west side the hill. Large parking lot was also a (the first?) park and ride for Public Service and other bus routes into NY's Port Authority Bus Terminal.
New York, Susquehanna & Western? Jersey City.
http://timetabletrust.com/images/07394-1942_56.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=G1ENevqcHHcC&pg=PA12
Johnny
Deggesty Mark, it was in 1968. I had gone up to spend the day in Chicago, and while waiting for the Panama to be opened up, I looked out and saw a train with an NYC engine (I think it was an E) on it--so it must have been the Riley. The next year, when I rode the Riley from CIncinnati to Chicago, I did not notice, particularly, the engine.
Mark, it was in 1968. I had gone up to spend the day in Chicago, and while waiting for the Panama to be opened up, I looked out and saw a train with an NYC engine (I think it was an E) on it--so it must have been the Riley. The next year, when I rode the Riley from CIncinnati to Chicago, I did not notice, particularly, the engine.
Johnny,
I know for a fact that all the NYC Big Four Route passenger trains ran between Chicago and Kankakee behind IC GP's up until 1959 and assumed that practice continued on until Amtrak times. Admittedly my first hand knowledge ends when I moved from that area in 1959. I am inclined to think that the train you mention seeing at Central Station in 1968 was a NYC Michigan Central Route train rather than the Riley. To see if that might be the case you could check your OG's to see if there was a MC route arrival or departure around the time the Panama was scheduled to leave. Since I don't have any OG's for the latter 1960's I'm unable to check this out myself.
My trip to Chicago and back was Southern Crescent Tuscaloosa to Birmingham, Seminole to Chicago (sadly, no sleeper), Panama to Carbondale (seat in parlor), And Seminole to Birmingham. Sadly, I missed the connection to Tuscaloosa because there had been a wreck on the IC above Haleyville, and neither the Southern or the Frisco was in a hurry to expedite a late IC train, so I had to take Greyhound back to Tuscaloosa. As we passed the wreck site, I saw that even though the track had been cleared there was much work to be done in clearing the wreckage (I remember noting one car that had turned turtle (even though it was not a turtle top car)).
Do you remember the year when you saw the Riley with a NYC engine on it at Central Station? I lived less than a block from the IC's six track mainline in the suburbs south of Chicago from the time I was born in 1932 until I moved to the western suburbs in 1959. As a kid I spent my spare time alongside (sometimes on) the tracks waiting for and watching the trains. During that time the Big Four trains that I saw daily were always headed by IC motive power (GP's after dieselization) with the exception of the Riley in its early years when it ran behind the streamlined NYC Pacific. I'll bet you had a pretty rough ride on the Riley in 1969 because by then the former Big Four trackage was in terrible shape after years of neglect.
I totally agree that a road should be said to reach a given city whether on its own rails or by means of trackage rights.
Henry,
I'm sure glad you brought this up because I had completely forgotten about the Egyptian route between Chicago and Cairo and the fact that it was a Big Four line.
I have a January 4,1935 Big Four public timetable...which will add to the confusion...the map shows two routes to Chicago, one marked CCC&STL between Indianapolis and Chicago, the second, from Cairo, IL crossing the StL to Cincy route at Paris and continuing to Davnille, IL then marked NYC from there to Chi meeting the Water Level Main at Indiana Harbor and into Chi that way and crossing the Cincy- CHi route at Sheff, IN. Schdules put the Cairo trains via the latter route terminatng at LaSalle St. and the former route (Cinc to Chi) terminating at Central Sta, Mich Ave. & Roosevelt Rd. There is no schedule, condensed or othewise, which would show one how to go from St. L to Chi! I am guessing those who know, or knew, Chi can determine the route by the Chi terminal...and I''m guessing the Cairo train (the Egyptian, round trip) was NYC while the Cincinnati-Indianapolis-Chicago trains are the ones most likely using IC rails.
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