Mark, I have not felt I really had the time to work on this.
As to the Big Four, I am not fully familiar with its operation between Kankakee and Chicago, but the IC employee timetable I have did show the Big Four trains as being foreign road trains. When I first saw the Riley at Central Station, it had an NYC engine on it, and when I rode it from Cincinnati to Chicago in 1969, I needed only one coupon. The NYC public timetables gave no indication that that another road carried the trains into/out of Chicago, as I recall.
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that if a road reaches a city by way of trackage rights, it can be said to have reached that city. So far as passenger timetables are concerned, the tenant road seldom, if ever, indiciates that it does not reach a particular city, though the employee timetables show, of course, that another road is used (as a Seaboard System timetables shows that the tracks of four different roads are used for its trains to get into Washington, D.C., from Gordonsville).
Johnny
daveklepper And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937.
And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937.
Dave,
You have aroused my curiosity. I would think that NYW&B operating revenues would meet the ICC specified threshold for Class I status. I base this on the number of NYW&B trains running between its Harlem River Sta., Port Chester and White Plains trains shown in my March 1937 OG. However, I've researched all the lists of Class I RR's that I know of and the NYW&B doesn't appear in any of them.
It's interesting to note that the H&M, CNS&M (North Shore), CA&E, and CSS&SB (South Shore), which all are other electric lines that I know met the operating revenue criterion, are not listed as Class I's either. On the other hand, the Pacific Electric, Oregon Electric and Piedmont & Northern are all shown as Class I's. I can only conclude that the ICC must have some other criteria, not just operating revenue, that had to be met in order to qualify as a Class I RR.
Mark
FlyingCrow Ok...how about the Savannah & Atlanta. If you don't count parent C of Ga's track Camak to Atlanta, then it qualifies. One of the "marginal" roads is the NYC subsidiary, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis, or the BIG FOUR ROUTE. It's entry into Chicago was via trackage rights over the IC from Kankakee. The problem here is that NYC absorbed the line in the 20's but continued to separately roster locomotives, track and other equipment as Big Four for some time. Not sure if this qualifies...a rule "stretcher".
Ok...how about the Savannah & Atlanta. If you don't count parent C of Ga's track Camak to Atlanta, then it qualifies.
One of the "marginal" roads is the NYC subsidiary, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis, or the BIG FOUR ROUTE. It's entry into Chicago was via trackage rights over the IC from Kankakee. The problem here is that NYC absorbed the line in the 20's but continued to separately roster locomotives, track and other equipment as Big Four for some time. Not sure if this qualifies...a rule "stretcher".
Buck,
The S&A certainly qualifies. I had it on my list and was beginning to wonder if you and our other southern railroad experts like Bob Hanson and Johnny (Deggesty) had forgotten about it.
The New York Central gained control of the Big Four in 1906 and it was fully consolidated into the NYC System in 1922 so it doesn't meet the separate corporate entity criterion.
I'm not sure if it's technically correct to say that the Big Four entered Chicago via trackage rights over the IC. The trackage rights arrangments that I'm familiar with involved the run through operation of road A's trains headed by road A's engines, manned by their own train crews, over the rails of road B. With one exception, Big Four trains ran between Chicago and Kankakee behind IC engines manned by IC engine crews and the passenger trains had an IC conductor (in addition to a NYC conductor) on board. The lone exception was the James Whitcomb Riley which, in its early years before dieselization, ran all the way to/from Chicago behind a streamlined NYC Pacific. The relatively low volume of Big Four freight traffic on this route was either consolidated with regular IC freights or ran as an IC extra train between Chicago and Kankakee. On the other hand, in the early 50's when I attended Purdue, I often rode Big Four trains between Chicago and Lafayette and I don't recall my tickets having an IC coupon for the Chicago - Kankee portion of the trip. If there was a trackage rights agreement between the Big Four and the IC I would consider it a "hybridization" of the normal arrangement.
The S&A's parent (after 1951) CofG didn't have any track from Camak to Atlanta, Buck, that was the Georgia Railroad.
You must've had a senior moment, Buck, because I know you knew that.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
Mark...ok, I took a crack at the M, StP & SSM due to the fact it took the DSS&A merger to reach the Soo Locks. Yah, I forgot the small branch on the DT&I. So ....hmmm....
narig01 Chicago & Erie ? Not sure if this made the Class I list. Was merged into Erie in 1947, after having beeen leased. Furthest west Marion, In east to Columbus. Oh. Also the "Erie" may refer to the lake. Rgds IGN
Chicago & Erie ? Not sure if this made the Class I list. Was merged into Erie in 1947, after having beeen leased. Furthest west Marion, In east to Columbus. Oh. Also the "Erie" may refer to the lake.
Rgds IGN
Good call IGN. I was not familiar with the Chicago & Erie but a little reasearch I confirmed it was indeed a Class I and retained its identity until it was merged into the Erie so it definitely joins the other roads mentioned so far.
daveklepper Did not I mention TH&B before Carl? And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937. And the Denver and Salt Lake did not get merged into the D&RGW until after WWII. Was it not also a Class I on the basis of revenue? Add Fort Worth and Denver City. reached the latter only via connection with the fellow Burlington system Colorado Southern.
Did not I mention TH&B before Carl? And the New YOrk Westchester and BOSTON did exist as a class I after 1935, as far as I new, based on revenues, not profitability. It closed in 1937. And the Denver and Salt Lake did not get merged into the D&RGW until after WWII. Was it not also a Class I on the basis of revenue?
Add Fort Worth and Denver City. reached the latter only via connection with the fellow Burlington system Colorado Southern.
In your prior reply you listed "Hamilton, Toronto & Buffalo" when I guess you meant TH&B. Since you did not have the name correct I gave the credit for that road to Carl. Incidentally the TH&B ended at Welland not Suspension Bridge.
The New York, Westchester and Boston may have been a Class I at some time, but I don't find it in any list of Class I RR's that I have for the time period of this question. If I'm wrong about this I'll stand corrected and give you credit for this one.
The D&SL was indeed a Class I and failure to credit you for listing it was an oversight on my part for which I apologize. The FW&D is a good call and credit goes to you for mentioning it.
Everyone but Buck Dean, Henry and Carl (CSSHegwisch) needs to go back and read the question carefully. To be eligible for inclusion a RR must have been a Class I that existed as a corporate entity sometime from 1935 forward which had only cities in its name - No states, lakes, rivers, bays, westerns, southerns, Atlantic or Pacifics!
Credit goes to the following: In the case of duplicates the first one to name a given road gets the credit. No credit is given for the SL-SF since it was one of the examples given in my original question.
Buck Dean - M&StL, NC&StL, AC&Y, SP&S.
Buck, the DT&I did actually reach Toledo which was MP 16.6 on a branch line that left the main at Petersburg Jct. Ste. Sault Marie was at the end (MP 501.9) of the Soo's line from the Twin Cities. Trains #7&8 ran between those terminals carrying through coaches and a sleeper.
Davekeepler - NKP. I'll accept this answer but I'm inclined to agree with Buck Dean that the New York in its name referred to the state not to the city.
Carl (CSSHegwisch) - CStPM&O, TH&B.
These are the only answers submitted so far that meet the specifics of the question. Keep trying as there are some fairly large RR's and several smaller Class I's that haven't been mentioned yet.
KCSfan Confine your answers to Class I roads that existed as corporate entities from 1935 forward. Mark
Confine your answers to Class I roads that existed as corporate entities from 1935 forward.
Well, I was just following instructions. Also, Mark said "Cities"..... ok.... I can think of dozens of geographical locations not reached but that is also not his question, which brings up the Nickel Plate Road.
-or-
The New York, Chicago & St. Louis. My NKP buddies tell me that the "New York" in the title does not refer to the City of New York, but to the state.
Just my dime's worth
The Atlanta & Stl. Andrews Bay Railway was a class one railroad until some time in the 1960's when the revenue threshold for that classification was raised.
While the road did not serve Atlanta, GA, the executive offices for the A&StAB were located there for several years in the 'teens.
narig01 My 2 cents worth: Atlanta & St Andrews Bay. I do not think it got to Atlanta. And was actually a class I for a few years. Also did the Delaware Lacakawanna & Western ever go to Lackawanna, NY? It certainly did not goto the state of Delaware just the river. Or just for last New York Ontario & Western . Went to Lake Ontario not the Canadian provience. Thx IGN
My 2 cents worth:
Atlanta & St Andrews Bay. I do not think it got to Atlanta. And was actually a class I for a few years.
Also did the Delaware Lacakawanna & Western ever go to Lackawanna, NY? It certainly did not goto the state of Delaware just the river.
Or just for last New York Ontario & Western . Went to Lake Ontario not the Canadian provience.
Thx IGN
Delaware and Lackawanna referred to the river valleys and not of cities.
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Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha - Subsidiary of C&NW, never made it to Chicago.
Spokane, Portland & Seattle - missed Seattle entirely
Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo - didn't get to Toronto or Buffalo
Never thought about it, but L&HR only touched the Lehigh River and never got further than Maybrook, NY toward the Hudson River. But nither Lehigh nor Hudson refer to city or state names....
New York Chicago Air line Railroad (small portion in Indiana that did get built became part of the Gary streetcar system)
St Louis San Francisco (Frisco)
New York Chicago and St. Louis (Nickel Plate)
Lehigh and New England (New England reached only by NYNH&H connections and Poughkeepsie Bridge)
Rio Grande Southern (did not reach Rio Grande River, only via connections via the D&RGW narrow guage)
Atlantic and Pacific (This was a separate railroad, but a subsidiary of either the AT&SF or the Friscio)
Niagra Catherans and Toronto, reached Toronto only via CP conenctions
Buffalo Hamilton and Toronto, reached Buffalo only via NYCentral connection at Suspension Bridge
New York Westchester and Boston, served only NYCity, Westchester, and southern Connecticut, Boston only via the NYNH&H
Texas Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Kansas Pacific, none reached the Pacific Ocean, but all now part of Uncle Pete.
Denver and Salt Lake (Moffat Road, and everyone knows its history)
13 enough?
The Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis Railway did, in fact, reach St. Louis for three months, January 1 through April 1, 1880, throug the lease of the St. Louis & Southeastern Railway. On April 1, 1880, the L&N purchased the road and terminated the lease, but for three months the NC&StL actually did serve all the cities in its name.
The Nashville, Chattanooga & St, Louis railway did, in fact, reach St. Louis for three months, January 1 through April 1, 1880, through the lease of the St. Louis and Southeastern Railway. On April 1, 1880, the L&N purchased the road and terminated the lease, but for three months the NC&StL did, in fact, serve all the citiesin its name.
Mark.... in terms of actually being the FRISCO - that is FRISCO trains on FRISCO rails...Avard is correct, but not in terms of actual land holdings. Based on that, the SL-SF actually made it as far as Mojave, CA.
This according to Santa Fe property documents provided by a friend who is now long retired from that road but was in charge of roadway improvements at the time over the old A&P stretch of the ATSF.
Now to your question.
I'll start off with the Toledo, Peoria & Western - Toledo was not served by this road.
Next:
Minneapolis & St. Louis - no St. Louis
Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie - not to the Soo until the outright inclusion of the DSS&A
Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis - Memphis would be the terminus, not St. Louis
Akron, Canton & Youngstown - Akron, but not Canton or Youngstown.
Detroit, Toledo & Ironton - with Toledo bypassed a few miles west for Delta, OH.
Spokane, Portland & Seattle - nope, no Starbucks for the SP&S as Seattle was not on the line.
Dave's last question gave me the idea for the one that follws.
The corporate names of many railroads consisted only of city names and usually contained the word "and". The rails of most of these roads actually reached the cities in their name, e.g. Chicago, Burlington & Quincy. However there were others like the SL-SF whose closest point to San Francisco was Avard, OK. Name as many railroads as you can which didn't reach one or more of their namesake cities and name the city (or cities) which they missed.
I'/ll accept the Penn Texas, however, and wait for the next question.
The New England States - well shut my mouth. Just goes to prove none of us were thinking outside of the box.
Well, duh!
I knew I shouldn't have sent my thinking cap to the cleaners!
I am amazed at all of you! Six locations in three words. The train is the New England States!
Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hamshire, Vermont, and Maine, with only Massachusetts served.
What happened to your thinking caps?
Although I haven't chimed in, I have been eagerly following this thread (as I am sure others have as well!). I have gone through every train name I could come across (in the time I had to spend on this), I couldn't find anything even close. (Well, I thought City of Portland might be close, since "Portland" can describe several places, and it did IIRC originally bypass some cities later served, and had set-outs, and has 3 words -- and is not now served by Amtrak ... .)
Anyway, we may all say "Well, duh!" when we hear it, but I for one am anxious to hear the answer!
And, I think we need a special award for Dave for coming up with a stumper!
daveklepper You are on the right track, but you can continue after WWII to get the full story. I'll give you one huge hint.
You are on the right track, but you can continue after WWII to get the full story. I'll give you one huge hint.
Dave, I might have been on the right track but I've run past a red board, through an open switch, hit a derail and am now on the ground waiting for the big hook. In short, my run is over and I give up.
Six locations named in three words. Again, only one location served.
It would not have been possible to make a direct connection between this train and the Penn Texas. But the Penn Texas probabliy did have a through Pullman at one time or another, either for the public or a special move, to the one location served by my train and included in its name. And to the same station but via a different railroad,
I'll probably feel foolish when you finally give the name of this train but for the life of me I can't think of what it might be. I can take a bit of solace in the fact that no one else seems able to identify it either.
It was obviously an overnight (maybe more than one night) train because of its Pullman consist. There weren't all that many RR's that ran Budd equipment so that narrows the possibilities a bit further. Given that info, I searched my latest pre-WW2 OG but I still couldn't find a train name that fits. I could probably find the train by searching my Jan '46 OG which I have on a two CD set. It's almost certain to have run on one of the roads listed in the first of those two CD's but as luck would have it I've misplaced and can't locate that particular CD. Unless I find that CD or have a brainstorm, I'll just have to give up and await you or someone else giving the name of this mystery train.
KCFan: You can ask the next question and consider yourself the winner if you wish to do so. But I think you would in the end be happier by looking at all the hints given so far and coming up with the real right answer . Three words, but more than three locations included in the three words and serving only one of the locations. During the streamline era (possibly even during the heavyweight era) and after, not even through cars to the other locations mentioned in the name.
The answer is very, very obvious, and you really have no excuse for not coming up with the right answer now.
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