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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, December 10, 2012 10:27 AM

I will guess that this Pullman line was one of the less-than-500 miles routes that were suspended in 1945 to provide enough equipment for redeployment of troops from the European to the Pacific theater.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, December 10, 2012 9:22 AM

Perhaps this hint will help answer the question. While you couldn't take the Shreveport to Memphis Pullman at the time, the fact that the car was shown in the March 1946 OG indicated that the Cotton Belt expected this service would be restored in the near future.

Mark

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Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, December 9, 2012 8:13 AM

Buck, since you're familiar with the area you might like to learn that the ex-Cotton Belt Shreveport Subdivision from Lewisville to S'port has been upgraded to include CWR, lengthened passing sidings and CTC. The same is true for the ex-SP S'port - Houston line (the old HE&WT "Rabbit"line). Both lines are now part of the UP's south bound directional St Louis and Memphis to Houston routes and  now see lots more trains than ever before. The northbound route is via former T&P and MP lines through Longview and Little Rock.

The former joint Cotton Belt / SP river front yard has been reduced to 4 four tracks and no longer serves as a classification yard. UP crews are changed at S'port and there are often 3 or 4 trains staged there waiting for new crews to continue south to Houston.

Mark 

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Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, December 9, 2012 3:52 AM

FlyingCrow

Mark

I believe this was via the SSW (Cotton Belt).    The Lone Star / or Morning Star and connection via Lewisville, AR.    My father's birthplace by the way.     As to why you couldn't ride it in 1946...well, I'd have to dig out the Guide on that one.   Hopefully someone else can fill in the blanks.

Buck, you've got the trains right - Cotton Belt No's 1 & 2, the Lone Star, and connecting trains No's 201 & 202 between Lewisville and S'port.

Because it illustrates a point, the crux of the question is why you couldn't ride this car despite it being listed in the equipment section of the Cotton Belt schedules.

Mark

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Posted by FlyingCrow on Saturday, December 8, 2012 7:01 PM

Mark

I believe this was via the SSW (Cotton Belt).    The Lone Star / or Morning Star and connection via Lewisville, AR.    My father's birthplace by the way.     As to why you couldn't ride it in 1946...well, I'd have to dig out the Guide on that one.   Hopefully someone else can fill in the blanks.

AB Dean Jacksonville,FL
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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, December 8, 2012 5:45 AM

73 Years ago you could travel in style between Shreveport and Memphis aboard a 10 Section/open platform observation Pullman car. What train(s) carried this car? Though still listed in 1946 Official Guides you could no longer make the trip in this car. Why was this?

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, December 7, 2012 12:22 PM

Chicago is the correct city.  Actually ALL of Chicago's cable lines lasted until 1906, and all of them went electric the same year.  The Settlement Ordinance removed the prohibition on overhead wires in the loop, and allowed for franchise extension, the two obstacles to electrification the companies had faced. 

Chicago City Railway - State St and Wabash/Cottage Grove lines

Chicago Union Traction (North Chicago St. Ry) Broadway and Clark lines

CUT (West Chicago St. Ry) Madison, Milwaukee and Halsted/Blue Island lines

The companies were more than happy to drop cable operation - CCRy had been hauling Archer electric cars behind State St. grips for almost a decade.   The downtown loops for each line were also accident zones.  Consider these fun bits:

State St's loop ran a block east on Washington to Wabash, returning to State via Lake.  Wabash/CG's loop ran a block east on Madison to Michigan, returning to Wabash on Randolph (between Washington and Lake). 

For the block between Washington and Randolph, the two lines ran left-handed (under the Loop L after 1897), with the State loop turning from Wabash onto Lake under the NE corner of the loop L on a pull curve.

The Madison/Milwaukee loop ran left handed on State St. between Monroe and Madison with a pull curve at each end of the block, with State St. cars going in both directions.

The North Side lines used a grip that grabbed the cable from below ("top grip", by Low and Grim ) that was not very good at handling curves and crossings.   Horses were stationed at the north end of the LaSalle St tunnel under the Chicago River to help if necessary.

The two west side line groups (Madison/Milwaukee and Halsted/Blue Island) used different grips, each having its own tunnel under the river.

The next question is yours, Mark.

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Posted by KCSfan on Friday, December 7, 2012 11:26 AM

Chicago - State St. and Wabash/Cottage Grove lines

Mark

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, December 7, 2012 6:09 AM

That was 1900-1901

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, December 7, 2012 4:33 AM

New York City, 3rd Avenue, Lenox Avenue, conversion to conduit electric operation by the Metropolitan Railway.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 6, 2012 2:33 PM

Dallas cars came to Boston in 1956.

San Francisco lost all of its cable car operations on April 18, 1906 as a result of the earthquake and fire (it later got some back...)  One other city with large cable operations lost all of its cable cars in 1906.  Name the city and take a stab at the lines involved.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 6, 2012 2:02 PM

I am pretty sure you are thinking of the correct line, even though the correct end points are Mattapan and Egleston.   It was commonly referred to as the Blue Hill Avenue line, and 80% of the route was on Blue Hill Avenue, ditto the bus today.   The center platform was a continuous divider sidewalk between the opposing traffic lanes.   In the past, much of the line was center-reservation, but when the pavement was widened to include the relayed streetcar tracks (going from t-rail to girder rail), this center divider sidewalk was installed, keeping center-pole bracket-arm overhead wire construction.  You are correct about the Type 5's and the reason they, and not PCC's, were used.  Dallas cars could have been used, but they were bought for and used in the Northeastern U. - North Station service, where they replaced Type 5's that replaced Type 4's.   Possibly they were bought after Blue Hill Avenue was bused.  The line was also the last connection between the High Speed Mattapan - Ashmont line, still running with the last Boston PCC's, and the rest of the trolley system.

Some Type 5's were equipped with field shunts, raising to speed to 35 mph.   These were assigned to 100, Elm Street - Sullivan Square via the Fellsway.

Your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:11 AM

I think it was the Roslindale-Mattapan (30) line.  Even though it had loops it may have had one or more center platforms which would have required left-hand loading - easy with the wide doors of a type 5 even in one-man service - 1953?  The last of the type 5's on the subway lines were replaced with ex-Dallas double-end PCCs.

The Type 5 has a straight air brake valve with a notch for full apply and an additional emergency position.  If your feet aren't set the emergency position makes for an awfully hard stop.  Balancing speed in full parallel is about 24 MPH, not nearly as fast as a PCC.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:14 AM

Boston transit question:

What was the last Boston pure streetcar line that did not enter the subway (any subway, not even the Harvard Square trolley subway), that never ran PCC cars.   Interestingly, in one respect it could have used PCC's because of loops at both ends, but could not for a specific reason.    It is not in operation today.   It did run during WWII, and before bus substitution, it was operated exclusively by Type 5 double-end lightweights.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:18 AM

MoPac bought 3 Budd domes in 1948, 4 PS domes in 1952 (T&P got one more) so that's the correct answer. Six of MPs 7 went to IC, which plated over the front-facing windows.

Dave still gets the win with 3 of 4.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:04 AM

Missouri Pacific?

Thx IGN

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 6:33 AM

Wabash is the third. Budd Domes for the Blue Bird in 1949, with a P-S dome parlor added in 1952.  In 1958 a P-S copy of UP's ACF domes for the City of St. Louis.  The two P-S domes ended up on Southern via CofG, the Budds to Amtrak via N&W merger.

SP had homebuilts.  The last one is also "--- Pacific".

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 4:41 AM

Southern Pacific and Wabash

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Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, December 4, 2012 9:10 PM

Northern Pacific and Burlington

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:12 PM

NP's were all Budd, CN's used (P-S, from Milwaukee)

The two remaining railroads were not particularly famous for Domes, though one had a train with the highest percentage of dome equipped cars.  So here's a big hint:

The two railroads both served the two largest cities in a midwestern state.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, December 4, 2012 1:50 PM

Northern Pacific.  Canadian National.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, December 3, 2012 12:35 PM

I got a little ahead of myself on this one.  The one carrier I thought had cars from all three builders that buit them (Budd, P-S, ACF) actually only got cars from two of them.  Some of the cars were built to another builder's plans at the request of the purchasing railroads.

This means that Dave has two answers (AT&SF and UP) correct, since UP's 1958 order for the City of St. Louis was built by P-S to ACF plans.

Two railroads remain.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:21 PM

C of G was actually leasing them at the end of pre-Amtrak service, and SR assumed the lease before eventually buying them.   C&O used their Budd domes briefly (on the Sportsman, not the Chessie) before selling them off.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:49 PM

Southern's used domes came from the Central of Georgia, so CofG must be one of the other answers.

Possibly to hurridly equip the stillborn Chessie, C&O may have ordered domes from all three builders?   Were the domes B&O bought form the C&O actually used on the C&O?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, December 2, 2012 12:26 PM

AT&SF bought Pleasure Domes (Super Chief) from Pullman, Big Domes (Chief, SF Chief) from Budd.  All of GN's were Budd-built (GN used the Great Dome name, even for "little" domes. AT&SF is one correct answer.

UP bought the Pullman-built Train of Tomorrow cars from GM, so that counts as secondhand.  All of UPs new domes were built by ACF.

B&O bought domes new from Pullman and (very slightly) used Budd domes from C&O.

IC only bought used domes, both Budd- and Pullman-built.

Southern eventually acquired two from two different builders.

Both Southern and IC's purchases were less than 50 years ago.

There's a couple medium-to-large-size hints embedded in the answers above.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:09 AM

My guess is AT&SF, GN, UP.

The Train of Tomorrow dome was built by Pullman, if I remember correctly, and ended up (I think) on either GN or UP in Portland - Seattle pool-train service.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, December 1, 2012 10:02 PM

We'll go back to domes for one more trip...

Burlington and SP had home-built domes.  Some railroads bought domes new from one builder.  Some acquired domes from more than one builder through secondhand purchases.  Two systems bought them new from two builders.  Only one railroad bought new domes from all three commercial builders.  Name the railroads that bought them new from two or more (commercial) builders. 

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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, December 1, 2012 3:37 PM

Right except for some minor corrections/additions. C&IM No. 502 was built by Baldwin in 1928.  Baldwin delivered two sister 4-4-0's No's. 500 & 501 in 1927.  No. 501 was scrapped in 1950 but the 500 and 502 soldiered on until  May 8, 1953 when the C&IM discontinued passenger service between Pekin and Springfield. Next question please.

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, December 1, 2012 2:44 PM

Baldwin 1927 for Chicago and Illinois Midland.  Retired after the passenger trains (Springfield - Peoria) were discontinued in 1953

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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, December 1, 2012 10:51 AM

I don't know where my mind was when I called the B&O domes Shasta Domes  - I knew good and well they were Strata Domes. On to a new question.

Who was the builder of the last American Standard (4-4-0) locomotive to be built in the US and in what year was it delivered new to what railroad? When was it retired from active revenue service?

Mark

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