NP Eddie Northern Pacific passenger trains from Duluth, MN to Minneapolis, MN terminated at the GN depot in Minneapolis. Why was the engine crew allowed five extra miles while the train crew was not? Ed Burns
Northern Pacific passenger trains from Duluth, MN to Minneapolis, MN terminated at the GN depot in Minneapolis. Why was the engine crew allowed five extra miles while the train crew was not?
Ed Burns
This is just a guess, Ed. The head end crew had to uncouple the engine from the train and run it to the engine terminal.
Mark
daveklepper thanks rc for the details look forward to ed's question glad to know the car still "lives." Have most of the CZ 10 and 6's survived? was it equipped with retention toilets?
thanks rc for the details look forward to ed's question glad to know the car still "lives." Have most of the CZ 10 and 6's survived?
was it equipped with retention toilets?
Any cars still in service have to thave retention toilets. The WP's 10&6s and 6DBR 5 Cpt cars went to Auto Train, where they lasted into the early 1980s. Only a handful of CZ cars are still serviceable.
The photos of the christening are along the Embarcaderoin San Francisco, pretty much where today's F line runs, on the State Belt Railroad. The CZ operated from SP's Oakland Pier from 1949 to 1957, and from WP's own station at Third and Washington in Oakland which is still standing about about a mile from Amtrak's Jack London Square Station. Like in the photo, the CZ loaded from the street on Third Street.
Dave and Rob:
Thanks for the info on "Silver Rapids". In looking in "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" I thought that "Silver Rapids" was named for topographical places as "Silver Pass" etc.
My question is this:
Eleanor Parker christened the California Zephyr, not in Oakland, in San Francisco.
Siver Rapids ran in transcontinental service between New York and Oakland, on the CZ and PRR's "General" . The car or another CZ car operated over the PRR every other day. New York Central handled a CZ car on the "Commodore Vanderbilt" but its contribution to the pool was usually a Budd-built "Valley" car, similar to the CZ cars but lacking the aisle-side windows opposite three of the bedrooms.
Silver Rapids combined the "Silver" CB&Q prefix with the PRR "Rapids" suffix used for PRR-owned Budd-built 10-6 cars. It passed from PRR to PC in 1968. PC still had plenty of P-S (and a few ACF) 10-6s but liked the Budd ones in later years as fewer sleepers were needed. Silver Rapids was also a regular on PC(PRR)/RF&P/SCL(ACL/SAL) Florida trains. For a time at least it had a black-painted roof like SAL cars. Sometime after it left CZ service the "California Zephyr: lettering got replaced by black "Pennsylvania" and the "PRR" sublettering by "Pullman".
Silver Rapids went to Amtrak in 1972, used until around 1980. The CZ-designed cars were not converted to HEP since 43 UP "Pacific" cars, Santa Fe "Pine" cars and a dozen or so SP 9000 series cars built for the "Sunset" were easier to convert.
In 2009 the car was in private charter service. It's still listed as available.
I yield to Ed for the next question.
you are the winner, correct. why was it named exactly? Go on with the complete answer. You did show why the PRR contributed a car to the CZ. How did it end up in NY - Detroit service?
Dave:
Are you thinking of the "Silver Rapids"? That was PRR's contribution to the CZ from New York to Oakland.
I remember that the CBQ wanted to buy that car, but they could not agree to a price.
Shalom,
More than once before Amtrak, 1 May 1971, I rode a Budd 10 and 6 sleeping car built specifically for the California Zehyr between either Grand Central Terminal or Croton-Harmon and Detroit.
What railroad originally owned this car? What was its name? Original regular-run end-points? Discuss its history as best as you can.
Give the reason for its name.
Dave is correct. The Cincinnatian was B&O's daytime train from Baltimore/Washington to Cincinnati. The Pacific was rebuit in B&O's Mount Clare Shops with Otto Kuhler designed shrouding, so there's some resemblance to PRR's sreamlined K4s's. Despite the lack of online population, C&O wanted to compete with the "Chessie" . A typical B&O low-budget streamliner, all of the cars were rebuilt heavyweights. Shifted in June 1950 to the Detroit-Cincinnati route, it survived until April 30 1971. The route north of Toledo was moved from B&O rights on MC(NYC) to C&O(PM) in the mid 1960s. At the end storage mail made up most of the business.
To be a little more precise, I have a January 1943 and an October 1945 Guide, as well as the 1947 one I mentioned; all three show the State of Maine going through Norwich. Apparently, it was not until well after the War that the route was changed permanently to be through Providence, though it did go through Norwich in June of 1930.
Johnny
was not the Pacific assigned to the steam 1st Cincinnatian streamlined by Otto Kuhler? (Sp?)
i will confess that my 1938 - 1943 and 1946-1948 or 1949 trips were all in the summer, and possibly the State of Maine ran through Providence in the summer and through Norwhich in the winter for some of these years. You can check since you have access to the OGs and timetables. For the WWII years the routing must have been via Providence year-round.
B&O Cincinnatian ---- rode it in its second role
1st appearance: Balt or Wash - Cincinnati
2nd appearance: Detroit - Cincinnati
So here's the new question:
This steam powered east-west day train became north-south diesel powered train after World War II.
All the issues of the Guide that I have from November of 1947 and earlier show the State of Maine going through Norwich--and everything I have with a later date (Guides and public TT's) shows that it went through Providence.
In October of '44, the train was scheduled to take 2:06 both ways, except for Sunday morning train (nb), which was scheduled to take 2:28. Unless the track was bad, it must have been a smooth ride.
From another fan's work out of a 1953 NYNH&H ETT and posted on www.railroad.net ...
New London - Worcester via Norwich and Putnam 72.31 miles max speed 50 MPH. Typical timing including stops about 111 minutes for RDCs.
New London - Worcester via Providence 105.54 miles 70 MPH New London - Stonington, 75 MPH Stonington - Boston Switch (Jct for Worcester), 60 MPH Boston Switch - Worcester. State of Maine (much heavier than RDCs) took 135 min via this route.
The summer-only East Wind was routed via Hartford and Putnam via the "Air Line" during the summer of 1954 and 1955. When the hurricane hit in late 1955, it was the end of both the Air Line and the East Wind.
again, would like rc's question and comparison of day express and state of maine worcester - new london times as i recall, the budds put on by buckey dumaine were no slouches, with an overall 40-45 mph average including about four or five stops. i recall returning to the line in an early 1950's FDC-car fan trip (FDC, a Mack bus body with generator replacing the transmission on clark b3 pcc interurban trucks.) track was good then. would have been economical to operate if buckey could have sold the unions on one-man operation, but all were put in storage and then sold overseas.
Since you have the timetables, can you verify the time saved via the Norwich routing?
i think if you also have access to the Providence newspapers, you can find the discussion of the push to have the New Haven turn over the P&W to the NYC in the postwar period.
At the time the Day Express was inaugurated, sometime in 1942. the line through Norwich had been without passenger service for several years or more. And after the Day Express was discontinued, when riding fell off after WWII, it was not until Bucky Dumaine restored service with Budd RDC's running Worcester - New London to connect with Shore Line trains that passenger service was restored again. This lasted until sometime during the McGinnis management, possibly at the time of a hurricane.
i first rode the State of Maine in late June or early July 1938 in a camp Pullman to Concord. I believe at that time we ran via Providence, and the that train continued on this route until its demise. Rode it every year through 1942 to and from Concord.
in 1943 and 1944 I rode the Day Express. My last ride on the State of Maine was to Portland in 1948 or 1949, again via Providence. The last two years, in the 1960's, saw it combined with the Owl south of Providence. This provided Owl passengers a possibility to get a buffet breakfast going into GCT that had not been available. i rode the Owl regularly during this period.
Look forward to RC's question.
Looking in a 1930s Guide, I see that the State of Maine ran through Norwich then--and I recall seeing in other public timetables (I do not recall just when, nor do I want to dig them out) that there were other times when Providence was bypassed. I doubt that we can find anyone now who can explain to us the reasons for the changes in the routing.
correct. except that it did save time because the track on the Themes River line was in better shape in those days.
the state of maine, the overnight train, always ran via Providence. The RI goverment tried to force the nynh&h to sell the p&w, then only the providence - worcester line, to the central, so RI could have one road service to the midwest, but the new haven kept maintaining it was needed for the state of maine route. but the day express always operated via the direct thems river line, and i think checking the schedules you will find a whole hour was saved there may have been a stop at norwhich, but no other, not even groton, the actual junction east of new london.
i rode all these trains as a youngster to and from summer camp, except the portland-bangor mc portion.
Then Providence was the bypassed city. But, then, it was often bypassed by New York to Maine traffic.
NYNH&H operated via New London and Worcester, or via New London, Providence and Worcester, depending on operating needs. Using the "shortcut" and bypassing Providence didn't actually save very much time, as the track was a bit better via Providence. Both routes remain intact under P&W ownership.
Routing today would be GCT New York - MNCR - New Haven - Amtrak - New London or Providence - P&W - Worcester. P&W owns the first mile or two out of Worcester to Viaduct Jct, then Pan Am to Ayer, MBTA to Lowell, Pan Am to Lawrence, MBTA to Haverhill, Pan Am to Portland. Since the NH-B&M connection was on Union Station's lower level, MBTA's ex B&A doesn't come into play.
avoiding an engine change does not involve bypassing a state capitol, the state capitol was bypassed, not just no stop but bypassed, like boston was bypassed. both trains did change engines at new haven and so the number of locomotives used would indicate. by the fl-9 era, the day train had long ceased operation, and then the engine change could have been eliminated.
and both trains had gct has the southern terminal. i noted that before ww2, the only train, the night train did have across-the=platform transfer to the motrealer=washingtonian for washington passengers, and a through pullman as well.
both trains did run on tracks now owned by mn-conn-dot, amtrak, providence and worcester, pan=am-guildford. i don't think any boston t tracks were used, but there may be a short stretch somewhere. but the in was nyc to woodlawn, and then nynh&h, b&m, mc.
The only big time saver I can think of is bypassing the engine change at New Haven. I suppose it could have been handled with DL109s and an engine change at Sunnyside for the night train (State of Maine). Did the day train run under the East Wind name?
I did not intend to state that Portland was a state capitol and thought I had made that clear, but that Concord, NH, Boston, and Providence are all state capitols. Please check and you will see that I did not state the largest of the three northern points was a state capitol.
So the name the trains, please, and give the reason that ____ being bipassed made the time saving. You know the answers and should give a good explanation of the whole shebang to others.
It is interesting, though, that the B&A part of the Central never did have any through service to northern New England, Maine and New Hampshire. Not even, as I recall, any through Pullman. Anything from the west went to Troy and over the B&M. If someone knows of any exception, at any time please do post that information!
In addition to the Grand Junction, there was the switching freight railroad connecting North and South Stations on Atlantic Avenue and Commercial Street, but possibly curves were too tight for 80ft long passenger equipment. This was all street-running freight trackage, with the Atlantic AVenue branch of the elevated overhead.
One of the northern terminii of those services was Concord NH, which is a state capital. Portland Maine, the largest city in Maine, is not the capital (Augusta is, and does not have train service - yet). Passengers from Portland to New York today are advises to take the Orange Line from North Station to Back Bay to connect with Corridor trains. B&M/NH trains operated via Worcester. The line from Worcester to Ayer, while intact, is pretty slow. The local connecting track in Boston - the "Grand Junction", has awkward connections at both ends and is now owned by MBTA, which uses it to transfer equipment between North side to South side routes.
I knew perfectly well that Maine services operated via New London or Providence to Worcester. I hadn't accounted for the floating state capital.
New York is correct as the southern terminus, and Boston is correct as the large city bypassed by both trains, and the reason for bypassing Boston is correct.
But neither train ran through Hartford, and neither train used the Boston and Albany, although of course New York Central tracks were used between GCT and Woodlawn.
Before WWII and the inauguration of the daytime reverse equipment train, there was a through sleeper between the largest of the north end-points, not a state capitol, and Washington, interchanged with the Washingtonian/Montrealer at New Haven, with an across-the-platform transfer for coach passengers to and from any of the three north destinations.
Amtrak has investigated restoring the route, with an inspection train operated. Too costly to rehabilitate some low-speed freight trackage for the amount of revenue expected.
People traveling between the one northern endpoint easily reached by Amtrak and New York City do get to know Boston.
Don't have the train specifics but you have to be talking about Hartford CT (capital and largest city) and Boston (capitol and largest city, many modes of transport) which would make the railroads PRR, NYNH&H and B&M. Boston got bypassed because then as now there's no easy path from the south side to the north side by rail. Hartford got bypassed because the train was rerouted via Providence or New London. If that's the case NYC (B&A) would have handled the train from Springfield to Worcester on one of the possible routings.
and it had and still has more varieties of public transportation modes than any North American city other than San Francisco, six or seven, depending on how you count. (larger city bypassed by both trains)
and the city bypassed only by the day train at one time had four modes and now has only two.
I noted that the city the ww2 day train bypassed was the capitol of its state and its state's largest city. Between the south end-point and the three north end-points is an even larger city, also its state capitol and largest city, and both the day train and the much-longer-running overnighter skipped this station! Today one can fairly easily travel between the south end-point and one of three, the most important, of three northern endpoints by train. But could not bypass this larger city and would get to know it pretty well.
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