I think the interurban was the Hagerstown and Frederick, but I will have to do some research to come up with the rest of the aswer. A logical destination might be Baltimore.
In an effort to reduce the cost of transporting coal, this Coal Company owned railroad acquired an interurban, which it continued to operate until after World War II. This action led to an ICC case that changed the way interurbans were regulated. Name the railroad, interurban and city the coal was destined for.
rcdrye PRR's Ohio and Western ran from Bellaire to Zanesville Ohio until 1931.
PRR's Ohio and Western ran from Bellaire to Zanesville Ohio until 1931.
Bingo, that's the right line Rob. Looking forward to your next question.
Mark
The Waynesburg and Washington was one of two narrow gauge lines owned and operated by the PRR and probably had passenger service at an earlier time but by the 1930's was freight only AFAIK. I am looking for the other NG Pennsy line that had mixed train passenger service until 1931.
Waynesburg and Washington's right-of-way was eventually utilized by Waynesburg Southern, another paper road established to build coal mine spurs eventually operated by Monongahela. The line was noted for unit coal trains with Detroit Edison road power.
Waynesburg and Washington, in PA. That's the cities and the railroad name. The road existed on paper until at least Penn Central, and was the "owner" of PRR's Alco RS27s. Standard gauge in 1944?
The self declared "Standard Railroad of the World" owned a narrow gauge line over which it ran mixed train service into the 1930's. Between what cities/towns did this train run and what was the name of the narrow gauge road prior to it being absorbed into the large railroad?
Well, Mark, even if you shot from the hip, you hit the target.
I never did ask my sister-in-law, who was born and grew up on a farm on US 219 in Monroe county, just across Second Creek from Greenbrier county, why the name. Perhaps there were many briers along it. My sister-in-law is now in a nursing home in Lewisburg.
It's beautiful country around there, which I have enjoyed seeing since September of 1948, when my mother and all six of her sons were at the wedding, which took place in the front yard of my sister-in-law's home. That was the last time we were all together.
Johnny
Johnny, I'll take a shot at answering your question. The motor car was C&O No's. 142 & 143 which ran between Ronceverte and Durbin, WV. The connection at Durbin was with Western Maryland mixed train No's. 153 & 154 which ran between Durbin and Elkins, WV.
The river is the Greenbrier which once was known by the French name Riviere de la Ronceverte.
At a division point for the railroad, this river flows into another river which is well known for a certain geographic feature.
In turn, this second river and a third river (which has a bridge named for it) flow together in the location of the bridge and form a fourth river which has a name well-known by steam locomotive aficionados.
All of this is in one state.
The town where the train originated and terminated for the day is in a county with the same name as the river.
A certain railroad operated a motor car from a town on a river with the same name--but the town's name is in a different language, and the river's name is not spelled quite the same way many people may expect it to be spelled. The route lay more or less along the river. At its destination, approximately 98 miles away, the motor car made a connection to and from a mixed train operated by another road. All in one state.
Name the two roads, the river (be sure you have its name spelled correctly lest you flunk), the town, and the junction.
Still waiting for Johnny's question...
As late as 1957, two Pullmans each were placed at Delmar Blvd for Chicago and Kansas City. (The Detroit train left early enough in the evening that no setout was needed.) Wabash's route that curved around the West Side of St. Louis passed the Delmar Blvd station, which was convenient to St. Louis businessmen who wanted to leave from home. The closest equivalent at the time were the cars added at Providence RI to New Haven trains for New York, Washington and Pittsburgh.
Back to you, Johnny!
rcdryeThis suburban station was one of the last places from which Pullman setout sleepers left for multiple destinations.
This suburban station was one of the last places from which Pullman setout sleepers left for multiple destinations.
Atlanta's Peachtree Station?
The PRR (as shown in Wanswheel's always excellent material) was obviously the instigator. Their "Chicago Special" was released shortly thereafter. Both of the trains were powered with a belt-driven generator located in the baggage car. I can't find the reference (Wanswheel?) but I seem to remember that the generators were quickly replaced with steam poered units after the belts failed in service. Milwaukee's Pioneer Limited followed in 1889 with stem-powered generators. There were some other railroads that had used battery lighting on non-vestibuled equipment earlier. Moskowitz' excellent truck mounted axle-powered generator, which made battery lighting practical, was tested as early as 1892, but had to wait for carbon brushes to be practical for longer distances. The first train entirely equipped with axle generators was the 1902 Twentieth Century Limited.
Yes, the New York and Florida Special is generally credited as being the first. It ran on several railroads that, collectively but unofficially, were known as the Atlantic Coast Line.
Wanswheel, as always your research is excellent and adds much to the answers to these questions.
Also ran in 1888...
https://archive.org/stream/goldengatespecia00uniorich#page/n5/mode/2up
The Elyria (Ohio) Democrat, November 15, 1888
The Golden Gate Special
CHICAGO, Nov. 13.--Arrangements were completed yesterday by the Union and Central Pacific roads to put on a fast limited Pullman vestibuled train to be called the “Golden Gate Special," to run weekly between Council Bluffs and San Francisco. The service will begin December 5, and the train is to be the most perfect in all its appointments in the world. It will be lighted with electric lights, heated by steam from the locomotive, have a barber shop, separate bath rooms for ladies and gentlemen, and a ladies' maid in attendance on women and children. The train will consist of a baggage car, two sleeping cars, one dining car and one composite car, divided into sleeping, library, smoking and observation rooms. Many other novel features will be introduced. The run is to be made in sixty hours, leaving Council Bluffs every Wednesday morning at ten o'clock and arriving in San Francisco every Saturday at eight p.m. Returning, the train will leave San Francisco at seven p.m. and arrive in Council Bluffs every Tuesday at nine a.m. The fare between Council Bluffs and San Francisco, including everything--railway ticket, sleeping berth, meals en route and service--will be $100.
The Philadelphia Times, January 8, 1888
THE NEW YORK AND FLORIDA SPECIAL
There will leave this city to-morrow at noon a train which will run over the same route used by the "Great Southern Fast Mail" of 1840. It will resemble this train, however, as the lazy mastiff does the fleet and nimble greyhound. Handicapped with a time allowance of twenty-four hours in favor of the great Southern mail, it would outrun it to Charleston by several hours. If it had been described to the traveler of forty years ago he would have laughed at the recital as the fantastic creation of a disordered imagination. The train is indeed the very acme of railroad equipment. It is composed exclusively of Pullman vestibule drawing room, sleeping, dining, smoking and library cars, built expressly for this service by the Pullman Palace Car Company. In appointment and furnishing the cars embody everything that is newest and freshest in the car-builders handiwork. This superb train will be made up of a baggage car, a smoking and library buffet car, a dining car and four drawing room sleepers. The sleepers have a drawing room at each end and contain in the main saloon twelve double berths. Their fitting and furnishing is of the most tasteful and luxurious character, the interior presenting the appearance of a compact and superbly furnished boudoir in some grand mansion. The interior of the dining car is furnished in rare taste, and its arrangement so complete that its service is performed with an ease which seems almost incredible when one considers that the meals are prepared and served as the train flies over the rail at the rate of forty miles an hour. The commissariat is in the hands of the Pullman Company, who have won conspicuous success in this field. The vestibule feature, whereby a continuous and unbroken passage from one end of the train to the other is perfected, makes the dining car as easily accessible to all the other coaches as one end of a given coach is to the other. The smoking car, indeed the most cozy and comfortable quarter of the train, offers luxurious rattan chairs, couches for the languid, books for the readers and writing-desks for those who desire to test the novel experience of writing on the fly. The steady regular motion of the heavy cars makes this an easy job. A most convenient annex to the smoking room is a buftet, whence in response to the touch of an electric bell at hand, a white-jacketed attendant bearing solid or liquid refreshment will emerge. The rear of the smoker is fitted with berths, which are occupied at night by the train attendants. The distinctive features which mark this train as the latest production of scientific car-building are the steam-heating and illuminating devices; under each car there is a coil of pipes, with connecting lines leading from the engine; from these other pipes are introduced as it were by stealth, into the cars, whence they radiate a genial and even heat. The temperature may be regulated at will throughout the entire train, and whatever degree of cold in the North or heat in tho South may exist, the temperature of the cars may be heightened or reduced according to the needs of the moment. The illumination is entirely by electricity and the handsome lamps, with their sparkling, incandescent pendants, adds an exquisite brilliance to their cheery surroundings. The electrical power is supplied not only from storage batteries, but as well from a powerful dynamo placed in the baggage car. This machine gets its motive power from the axles of the car, aided by a system of bands and pulleys. The introduction of the dynamo is an entirely new departure and its use makes sure the lighting force by adding another source of supply. The wires strung through the cars are so ingeniously concealed that one would never suspect their presence. The finest and speediest locomotives used by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company will furnish the motive power for the train and picked men will guide it on its flying course. This is the train which will start southward to-morrow over the old "Great Southern Fast Mail" route. It is the highest type of development in railway progress and a wonderful example of the enormous advancement which science has made since sixty hours were worn out in the weary journey to Charleston.
The Wilmington (NC) Morning Star, January 15, 1888
How the Vestibule Trains are Lighted
The lighting of the New York and Florida special, the vestibule train, is done by electricity. In the baggage car is placed a small dynamo of 85 volt power. A rubber belt is connected with the axle wheel of the car, and all the power necessary to run the machine is economically secured. There are 120 lights in the train, 20 in each car. Each car has 32 cells of electrical insulators, in which is stored the electricity when the dynamo is running. Enough is stored in this way to run the lights four hours if necessary, when the dynamo is not running from any cause. The machine runs at the rate of 1,050 revolutions per minute, and easily supplies all the light necessary. The light (Edison incandescent) is of 60 volts lens, and is equal to 16-candle power. These give a brilliant light. In the dining car the lights are especially noticeable for their soft, diffusive radiance. They are in closed globes called "light condensers," a new patent, and give a mellow, clear light that is very pleasing.
The Tyrone (PA) Daily Herald, December 24, 1888
THE FLORIDA SPECIAL
The phenomenal success of the New York and Florida Special of Pullman drawing-room, dining and sleeping cars running between New York and Jacksonville last season demonstrated beyond doubt the popularity of such a high-class train. Travel demands it, and, with the view of catering, in the best manner possible, to the wishes of every class of its patrons, the Pennsylvania Railroad Company has arranged to again place this train in service between the points mentioned. It will make its initial trip of the season on Monday, January 7th, 1889, and will be run tri-weekly, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays thereafter. The schedule of last year will be maintained, and the special will leave New York 9:30 a.m., Philadelphia 11:59 a.m., Baltimore 2:20 p.m., Washington 3:30 p.m., and arrive Jacksonville 3:40 p.m. next afternoon. The equipment of the train will consist of Pullman vestibule drawing-room, sleeping, smoking and library and dining cars, heated by steam and lighted by electricity. The well-earned reputation of the train for comfort, luxury, and an excellent attention to the creature comforts of its patrons will not only be preserved but nothing will be left undone to make it better than ever in every respect.
I'm sure there's some contention on this but...
January 1888 Florida East Coast "New York and Florida Special"
The train was obviously also handled by the PRR, RF&P and whatever the ACL was called in those days.
What railroad is credited with operating the first electrically lighted/vestibuled train. Name the railroad and the train.
thanks, look forward to Mark's question
daveklepper and what was the difference between 9509 and 9520? If you can tell?
and what was the difference between 9509 and 9520? If you can tell?
The short answer is "no". Pullman plan numbers often hinge on internal arrangements that aren't visible to the casual observer. It may have been as simple as a minor change PRR requested. Pennsy's other Budd 10&6s were all plan 9503, and there were both smooth- and fluted-side versions. The two other Budd PRR Rapids cars were renamed Toronto Islands and Toronto Harbor by PC in 1969 for PC/TH&B/CP service between New York and Toronto.
Quick cheat sheet:
2000 and 3000 series - Pullman heavyweights
4000 series - Pullman lightweights
9000 series - ACF-built lightweights
9500 series - Budd-built lightweights
and what was the difference between 9509 and 9530? If you can tell?
Let Mark have the question.
Digging a little more on "Silver Rapids"...
CZ 10&6's were plan 9509, Silver Rapids was plan 9520 - only car with that plan number.
PRR had two Budd sleepers built to its own account "Scioto Rapids" and "Sturgeon Rapids", both plan 9503. PRR also owned some Budd 10&6s built for service in SAL trains, also plan 9503, but with fluted sides.
Here's the interesting part: PRR's cars had 110V (PRR standard) electrical systems. The SAL-train cars had 64V systems, Silver Rapids had a CZ-standard 32V system.
In 1957 PRR handled the car for the CZ in the "Broadway" westbound and the "Liberty Limited" eastbound, alternating days with a car for the MILW/UP/SP "City of San Francisco" NYC handled their car in both directions on the "Commodore Vanderbilt", also alternating a City of SF car, on the days the CZ car ran on the PRR.
Rob and Mark:
Both are correct. The train crew went off duty at the GN depot and stayed at a nearby hotel (don't know where as they were Duluth men) and the engine crew went off duty at Northtown Roundhouse, about five miles from the depot. I remember seeing the passenger Geep doing by the yard office with it's rear classification lights set to red. The NP Enginemen's agreement had a that provision for the Skally passenger crews---and yes I did have to know the agreements as I called crews---the WORST job I ever had!!! An NP Carman did the actual separating of the hoses, etc.
I yield to either of you.
Ed Burns
I think Mark is right. We looked at the track layout around the GN station a couple of yearsago and I seem to remember the wye used was about two miles away.
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