I expect everyone's grown pretty tired of this question by now so here are the answers.
The FEC train was No's 39 & 40 , the Biscayne, which ran between Jacksonville and Miami. It carried six Chicago-Miami sleepers; three of these ran north of Jax in the all Pullman Dixie Ltd., two in the all Pullman Floridan and one in the coach and Pullman Flamingo. The same two trains carried both a St. Louis-Mia and a Chi-W. Palm Beach car. The Flamingo carried a Detroit-Mia, a Cleveland-Mia and a Cincinnati-Mia car. The St.L section of the Dixie Ltd. carried coaches but only between between StL and Evansville. Between Evansville and Jax the DL ran as an all Pullman train.
Since Buck Dean was the only one to get any part of this question he gets to field the next one.
Mark
Yes Buck, one was an all Pullman FEC train that ran between Jacksonville and Miami. It carried 13 sleepers that ran north of Jax in three other trains. Six of the Pullmans were Chicago-Miami cars, two were St. Louis-Miami cars and one each were Detroit, Cleveland and Cincinnati-Miami cars. The two dropoffs were Chicago-West Palm Beach cars. All that's needed to wrap up this question are the names of the trains.
Going southbound, the train that ran on the common leg carried all but two of its Pullmans to one terminal city. The two exceptions were dropped off 67 miles short of that city.
Keep after it Buck. You got the route correct in one of your earlier replies but mis-identified the train.
For all I know a Florida sleeper off the Seminal might have been handled to and from St. Louis from and to Cairo by a gas-electric coach-baggage-mail car.
There were all sorts of bizarro world connections down here in Florida. Most think, natually, that the OBS came to JAX when, in fact, in the glory days of the OBS, you had to take a bus from JAX to Baldwin, FL to catch the train as it did not come into Jax terminal but took what is known as the Yulee Cutoff. The other weird connection was the pickup and dropoff (not the Russian limo company) of sleepers from trains at this fire plug called Hampton, FL.
Mark, I'm besides myself trying to figure this out.
Although I knew the IC's Seminol as a secondary train, I believe at one time it was the flagship of the IC's M<idwest - Florida service, so I would hazard a guess it is the train you are refering to. I think it was all-Pullman at one time. South of Jacksonville, it would probably use the best FEC traini to Miami to handle its sleepers, and that would certainly be the Florida Special. It would be better to use one SAL train to both Tampa and St. Pete than two ACL trains, so the St. Pete section of the Orange Blossom Speical makes sense. But to get to Manatee and Sarasato, a through Pullamn probably was carried in a coach and sleeper train from Tampa.
Buck, you're getting very close but FEC No. 3 was not one of the trains.
Remember we're looking for four different trains, three of which were all Pullman while the coaches carried in the fourth one did not run through to the common end point terminal as did the sleepers.
Still early 30's , Mark? I keep wanting to say the City of Miami / Dixie Flagler / South Wind to FEC #3 at JAX but that's wrong due to time frame. I think I'm close in the neighborhood though, just not the right era.
daveklepper All of us agree that you asked a good question, and my comments are just to suggest that all of us asking questions try to put ourselves in the position of those answering to make the effort worthwhile. I too have been guilty of not providing enough information, but I usually added some hints that compensated for that lack, after a day or two without answers. Was this a southern railway Cincinnati - Jacksonville train? The Royal Palm? with connections south of Jacksonville handled in the winter by the Florida Special and the Orange Blossom Special (both all Pullman) and connections north of Cincinnati handled by a coach and sleeper NYCentral train to Chicago?
All of us agree that you asked a good question, and my comments are just to suggest that all of us asking questions try to put ourselves in the position of those answering to make the effort worthwhile. I too have been guilty of not providing enough information, but I usually added some hints that compensated for that lack, after a day or two without answers.
Was this a southern railway Cincinnati - Jacksonville train? The Royal Palm? with connections south of Jacksonville handled in the winter by the Florida Special and the Orange Blossom Special (both all Pullman) and connections north of Cincinnati handled by a coach and sleeper NYCentral train to Chicago?
daveklepper Was this a southern railway Cincinnati - Jacksonville train? The Royal Palm? with connections south of Jacksonville handled in the winter by the Florida Special and the Orange Blossom Special (both all Pullman) and connections north of Cincinnati handled by a coach and sleeper NYCentral train to Chicago?
None of them were Southern Railway trains but you are in the right part of the country.
daveklepper OK, but from your post, I gather that the Super did have a daily sleeper for both the Broadway and the Century plus the Shenandoa, and would not that make it an answer to the question? Or am I misreading something?
OK, but from your post, I gather that the Super did have a daily sleeper for both the Broadway and the Century plus the Shenandoa, and would not that make it an answer to the question? Or am I misreading something?
I have to agree that it would have been better if I'd originally stated that none of the sleepers ran in transcontinental service. I intened to convey the proviso that the train which ran the common leg carried a multiple number of sleepers from each of the other three trains. That, together with the mention of the 1930 timeframe would have eliminated the transcons from contention. All of the four I'm looking for were basically north/south trains. As you point out Buck Dean was technically correct so he can post the next question or wait for someone to identify the trains I was looking for.
Actually, the Super Chief only works westbound because the B&O car was put on the All-Pullman Capitol Limited eastbound...
Actually, I was only attempting to clear up the Santa Fe transcon argument. Mark is correct, I did NOT answer his question specifically and so he still has the floor, and his outstanding question.
Buck
The question as asked was specificaly answered by Fllying Crow. You should have stated that the trains were not transcontinentals within the original question.
Possibilities for the answer you want might be the Milwaukee's Pioneer between Chicago and the Twin Citiies, with connecting sleepers to NP, GN, SOO; or the Alton Owl Chicago - St. Louis with MP/Tp, Katy, and Frisco connections.
daveklepper I have to agree that Flying Crow has an accurate and complete answer. I would like to look forward to his question.
I have to agree that Flying Crow has an accurate and complete answer. I would like to look forward to his question.
Sorry but the question has not been answered yet. The trains I am looking for were not transcontinentals. Perhaps a time frame will help with the search. They all ran in the early 1930's.
This seems to be an elusive subject with differing answers. For ex, from the Santa Fe group we have this:
On March 31, 1946, The Chief (#19/20) became a transcontinental train in that three of its eight full sleepers were coast-to-coast cars in conjunction with the PRR (Broadway Limited #28/29), NYC (20th Century Ltd. #25/26) and B&O (Capital Limited #5/6).
Those cars were:
At the beginning of 1946 the NYC used the grays in a light-dark-light pattern with a pair of silver or silver-gray pinstripes through the window band. In late 1946 that was changed to dark-light-dark, though still with the pinstripes. This scheme lasted until 1948, and there's a good color photo of it from that year on page 14 of Zimmerman's 20th Century Limited. When the Century was re-equipped in 1948 the pinstripes were discontinued, the shades of gray changed slightly, and the letttering style changed too. Also in 1948-9 the Imperials were renamed as Bridge cars.
In 1949, a second sleeper was added from the NYC, a 10-5 Cascade. These were soon replaced by 10-6 River cars (Chicopee River, Indian River, Kankakee River). The Santa Fe used Pine cars for this service.
Around 1950, the B&0 service changed from a 6-6-4 to a 10-6. This service was covered completely by ATSF Pine cars and was extended via the San Diegans to San Diego, becoming the longest Pullman route (3,120 miles).
PRR and NYC each had daily 4DBR 4Cpt 2DR cars transferred to the Super Chief. The General was used for the C&NW/MILW-UP trains and the California Zephyr. NYC cars to those trains were handled on the Wolverine (via Canada!) westbound and the Lake Shore Limited eastbound.
The B&O's car to the Super Chief came off the Shenandoah. Transferring the car from Grand Central Station to Dearborn required about six miles to go the four blocks from Wells and Harrison to Dearborn and Polk.
OK. The Super Chief carried NY - LA sleepers for both the PRR Broadway and the NYC Century, two all Pullmans, although at times the PRR sleeper was on the General instead of the Broadway, and aslo for the B&O Capitol Limited, which also had coaches, cut back from NY ׂ(Jersey City) to Washington before being dropped.
Dave, the Cities always carried coaches from end to end.
Johnny
Did not the 20th Century`carry a Super Chief sleeper, also Citiy of LA and Citiy of SF, but I probably do not have the answer, unless the City of LA was, at one time, all-Pullman, with the Challenger and Overland carrying coaches. I do not believe the City of SF was ever all-Pullman, particularly west of Ogden.
This all Pullman train carried the cars of three other trains on the common leg of their different routes. Two of the three were also all Pullman but the third train carried coaches in addition to a number of sleepers. Name all four trains and their different routes.
And that would be correct. The Western Star was no slouch of a train, getting everything but domes during its 24 years after replacing the "Oriental Limited" as GN's number two run. It did carry more head end busines than the Empire Builder, including storage mail handed off to the Milwaukee Road in St. Paul. Great Falls was an important city to GN, with a population of around 50,000 and a military base. GN's other services to Great Falls included its only RDC, used on a Great Fall-Butte run.
That would the GN's Western Star which jogged off the main line taken by the Empire Builder. The longer route ran between Havre and Shelby in order to serve Great Falls.
Instead of taking the 105 mile direct route between two points on the main line taken by the top name train, this secondary western name train took a 222 mile jog to serve a mid-size city. Name the railroad, the name train and the city.
My 1957 OG has 25 petering out in Goodland Kansas. I'll post a qustion some time this evening.
Aha, I told you you were close a few days ago.
The equipment listing in the February 1953 issue (which I picked up in my home town in July of 1953, after our agent received the March issue--he was at the tail end of the distribution) shows #43 as the Kansas City-Tucumcari train, which connected in Belleville with #225-25, which ran from Belleville to Denver (mixed train Limon-Denver). #25 ran Omaha to Belleville. I think that #225/226 was the number for the mixed portion.
Each of the City of Denver's original locomotives had two automobile grills in the nose.
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