MoPac KC-StL
IC StL-B'ham
CofG B'ham-Albany
ACL Albany-Jacksonville
Mark
daveklepper I have no reference material other than the internet, but MP to St. Louis, then C&EI, L&N, NC&StL, and ACL would be the railroads involved. I'll try and do some research on Monday or Tuesday, if nobody comes up with the complete answer in the interim.
I have no reference material other than the internet, but MP to St. Louis, then C&EI, L&N, NC&StL, and ACL would be the railroads involved. I'll try and do some research on Monday or Tuesday, if nobody comes up with the complete answer in the interim.
Dave - You've given two of the railroads that are part of the answer from your reply. There were two Kansas City-Jacksonville Pullman car lines that would qualify for this answer and both were operated by the same railroads in question during the same time period but on different trains. The marketing name I'm looking for was applied to one of the car lines. I have seen this name used in several ads promoting this Pullman car line.
At this point consider the marketing name as a bonus question.
daveklepper could be the MoPac to Saint Louis and then could be the IC or the C&EI-L&N-ACL or Southern..?
could be the MoPac to Saint Louis and then could be the IC or the C&EI-L&N-ACL or Southern..?
Dave - you're giving me a number of answers. Could you give me a single answer covering the entire line? Obviously, SR would not be included since I stated in the original question that the car line I'm looking for did not use Frisco or SR. Also, I'm looking for the marketing name this Pullman car line ran under.
rcdrye Not sure if this is what you're looking for... Summer 1925 the Dixie Flyer (L&N/NC&StL/CofG/ACL) carried a Jacksonville to Yellowstone car, which the Wabash carried to Kansas City to hand off to the UP. As far as I can determine UP handled it in the Yellowstone Special west of Cheyenne. I couldn't find a marketing name (and neither could Mike (Wanswheel) back in 2009). Best guess since nothing is specified is that the car was a 12S1DR.
Not sure if this is what you're looking for...
Summer 1925 the Dixie Flyer (L&N/NC&StL/CofG/ACL) carried a Jacksonville to Yellowstone car, which the Wabash carried to Kansas City to hand off to the UP. As far as I can determine UP handled it in the Yellowstone Special west of Cheyenne. I couldn't find a marketing name (and neither could Mike (Wanswheel) back in 2009). Best guess since nothing is specified is that the car was a 12S1DR.
Not exactly - there were a number of Florida Pullman car lines that extended beyond Kansas City to various western points, but what I'm looking for is a Kansas City-Jacksonville Pullman car line that did not operate via Frisco/SR. In fact, for one of the operators of the Pullman car line I'm looking for, this was the only time it was involved in handling through Florida Pullmans.
The Kansas City-Florida Special had a lock on Kansas City-Jacksonville through Pullman car lines through most of its existence. An exception occurred in the mid-1920's when a Kansas City-Jacksonville car line briefly existed that was not handled on the Kansas City-Florida Special or any other Frisco/SR train. What was the routing of this car line and what name was applied to this service?
A new question will be coming soon....
Give this man a CIGAR! Very good, ZO...yours to continue!
FlyingCrow Well, as long as we are "on the subject" my question is.. What place billed itself as the RR Tie Capital of the World, but would find itself eventually buried by the construction of what dam?
Well, as long as we are "on the subject" my question is..
What place billed itself as the RR Tie Capital of the World, but would find itself eventually buried by the construction of what dam?
Bagnell, Missouri
The Bagnell Dam that was built at the site, creating the Lake of the Ozarks reservoir.
A+ Buck, you've nailed it.
Mark...that would be the O'Shaugnhessy Dam project for the City of San Francisco. The Hetch Hetchy Railroad. I have the book by Ted Wurm. All contractors and engineers should have it.
ABD
ZephyrOverland Johnny, Has your question been answered? If so, who is slated to ask the next question?
Johnny,
Has your question been answered? If so, who is slated to ask the next question?
Reading back I think Johnny may have considered me to have answered his question so I'll pose another one.
The name of this railroad always intrigued me but the information I've been able to find about it is a bit sketchy. The representation for this road in a 1910 OG states, "Logging road. No freight or passenger service". Since it was not a common carrier at the time, the fact that it even appears in the OG is unusual. The first portion built was narrow (3') gauge and motive power was Heislers and Shays. In 1917 it was acquired by a major city and the mayor of that city became its president. Under city ownership it was converted to standard gauge and extended to reach its ultimate destination. It operated as a common carrier of both freight and passengers from 1918 to 1925 when it reverted to hauling only materials and workers to a massive public works project being built by the city which owned it. It was abandoned in 1949. What was the name of this railroad and what city owned and operated it?
I could not answer at all yesterday, since I left Salt Lake City about 3:30 yesterday morning, and arrived in Chicago this afternoon. Amtrak just does not provide internet access to passengers on the California Zephyr, even when they have paid for their meals when they bought their space.
Johnny
Deggesty Thanks, ZO. It is well that I specified a time frame in my question, else it would have been really wide open to these routings, which existed especially before there were even the beginnings of half-way decent highways. Night Trains, by Peter Maiken, has some interesting routings, but it does not go back as far as your reference. In 1892, the Dixie Flyer was a Nashville-Jacksonville train, which ran over the NC&SL, CG, GS&F, and FC&P. This intrigued me, since the FC&P became part of the SAL, the arch-rival of the ACL.
Thanks, ZO. It is well that I specified a time frame in my question, else it would have been really wide open to these routings, which existed especially before there were even the beginnings of half-way decent highways. Night Trains, by Peter Maiken, has some interesting routings, but it does not go back as far as your reference.
In 1892, the Dixie Flyer was a Nashville-Jacksonville train, which ran over the NC&SL, CG, GS&F, and FC&P. This intrigued me, since the FC&P became part of the SAL, the arch-rival of the ACL.
Actually, the 1892 Dixie Flyer was officially a NC&StL Nashville-Atlanta train which featured Nashville-Jacksonville sleepers. The problem in looking into early Dixie Route operations is that, at the time, Dixie Flyer was promoted as a through Florida train service, but in reality only a few through sleepers were handled on the Flyer to Atlanta and were transferred to other regularly scheduled connecting trains running south of there to Jacksonville. The Dixie Flyer became so well marketed that connecting roads wanted to bask in some that that marketing power off of the main Dixie Flyer. Eventually, the connecting segments of through Dixie Flyer sleepers eventually morphed into a through Chicago-Jacksonville train route in 1908.
As for the south of Atlanta connecting railroads, up to WW1 through sleepers and trains operated via routes that were always changing due to the fact that there were a number of railroads (far greater in number than those who were involved in northeastern-Florida operations) that could be used in getting through cars and trains from the midwest to Florida. Dozens of routes were utilized, but eventually railroad alliances started forming (as well as mergers of lines), which eventually cemented the routes that would become familiar.
Johnny -
I would like to chime in with some additonal St. Louis-Jacksonville sleeping car routes that existed before WW1:
- Mobile & Ohio - St. Louis-Montgomery; Montgomery-Jacksonville via Plant System/ACL. This route existed for a brief time around the turn of the 20th Century.
- SR - St. Louis-Louisville-Lexington-Asheville-Columbia-Jacksonville; this was a temporary reroute of the Cincinnati-Asheville-Jacksonville sleeper during the run of the St. Louis Worlds Fair in 1904.
- St. Louis-Holly Springs, Ms. via IC; Frisco, Holly Springs-Birmingham; SR Birmingham-Everett; FC&P Everett-Jacksonville. This was the routing St. Louis sleepers used before Frisco had its own St. Louis-Memphis line.
- St. Louis-Martin, Tn, via IC; Martin-Nashville via NCStL; beyond Nashville via Dixie Route. The IC and NCStL operated a St. Louis-Nashville Dixie Flyer that connected with the Chicago-Jacksonville Dixie Flyer at Nashville. After WW1 this routing was discontinued and St. Louis Dixie Route cars began operating via L&N to Evansville.
This information (and more) is included in the new two volume set "Midwest to Florida by Rail 1875-1979" published by the PRRT&HS, a publication which I was proudly involved with.
Myron
Mark, I perhaps should have approved your naming the Memphian as far as it went; I knew how it was carried south and east of there.
Deggesty But, it was the KC-Fla Special east of Memphis, and the Floridan and Dixie Limited had St. Louis-Miami sleepers but no St. Louis Jacksonville sleepers.
But, it was the KC-Fla Special east of Memphis, and the Floridan and Dixie Limited had St. Louis-Miami sleepers but no St. Louis Jacksonville sleepers.
Johnny, the StL-Jax sleeper was carried in the Memphian between StL and Memphis and in the KC-Fla Spcl (which I failed to mention) from Memphis on to Jax. As you know the KC-Fla Spcl did not serve StL. I included the Dixie Ltd and Floridan since one could travel to Jax in the sleepers which were not dropped off there but continued on to Miami.
According to Mr. Charles Lawrence Goolsby , the author of the book on the AB&C (and he shamed me for even asking him), the AB&C did take part in through Pullman lines to the midwest. He very gruffly said "Read MY BOOK". Sheesh
Good job Mark!
Oh, yeah, he really thought I'd lost it when I said AB&C out of Albany, GA. Duh. Now that, I know
KCSfan St Louis -Jacksonville Express: L&N StL-Montgomery, ACL Montgomery-Jax Memphian: Frisco StL-Birmingham, SR B'ham to Jax Dixie Ltd & Dixie Flyer: L&N StL-Nashville, NC&StL N'ville- Atlanta, CofG Atl-Albany, ACL Albany-Jax Seminole & Floridan: IC StL-Birmingham, CofG B'ham- Albany, ACL Albany-Jax Mark
St Louis -Jacksonville Express: L&N StL-Montgomery, ACL Montgomery-Jax
Memphian: Frisco StL-Birmingham, SR B'ham to Jax
Dixie Ltd & Dixie Flyer: L&N StL-Nashville, NC&StL N'ville- Atlanta, CofG Atl-Albany, ACL Albany-Jax
Seminole & Floridan: IC StL-Birmingham, CofG B'ham- Albany, ACL Albany-Jax
I don't think that the AB&C entered the Mid-west and Florida traffic until the Dixie Flagler was inaugurated.
rcdrye I'll take a stab at this... Here they are in two, three, four order. L&N via Evansville to Montgomery ACL Jacksonville Yup, still right on. B&O Cincinnati SR Jacksonville No, B&O was not in it--and a bit long. IC Birmingham CofG Albany GA ACL Jacksonville Aha, another good one. L&N via Evansville to Nashville NC&StL Atlanta AB&C Waycross ACL Jacksonville No, AB&C did not figure at all. I'm least sure about the B&O/SR routing.. I can also come up with an L&N/SAL routing via Flamaton AL but that seems really unlikely. Absolutely out of it.
I'll take a stab at this... Here they are in two, three, four order.
L&N via Evansville to Montgomery ACL Jacksonville Yup, still right on.
B&O Cincinnati SR Jacksonville No, B&O was not in it--and a bit long.
IC Birmingham CofG Albany GA ACL Jacksonville Aha, another good one.
L&N via Evansville to Nashville NC&StL Atlanta AB&C Waycross ACL Jacksonville No, AB&C did not figure at all.
I'm least sure about the B&O/SR routing.. I can also come up with an L&N/SAL routing via Flamaton AL but that seems really unlikely. Absolutely out of it.
L&N via Evansville to Montgomery ACL Jacksonville
B&O Cincinnati SR Jacksonville
IC Birmingham CofG Albany GA ACL Jacksonville
L&N via Evansville to Nashville NC&StL Atlanta AB&C Waycross ACL Jacksonville
I'm least sure about the B&O/SR routing.. I can also come up with an L&N/SAL routing via Flamaton AL but that seems really unlikely.
FlyingCrow Since this is where I live, I'll take a crack at (some) of it. STL-JAX via IC, CofGA and ACL Birmingham and Montgomery Montgomery requires backtracking. via IC, CofGA, AB&C, and ACL Birmingham, Albany, Waycross AB&C was not it it--nor did it go to Albany; also, IC was in only one. via SOU. GS&F Atlanta You are taking a long way; GS&F was not in it. via L&N, ACL Montgomery Bingo! To me, this was the really obscure one. I dunno..I'm getting lost..
Since this is where I live, I'll take a crack at (some) of it.
STL-JAX
via IC, CofGA and ACL Birmingham and Montgomery Montgomery requires backtracking.
via IC, CofGA, AB&C, and ACL Birmingham, Albany, Waycross AB&C was not it it--nor did it go to Albany; also, IC was in only one.
via SOU. GS&F Atlanta You are taking a long way; GS&F was not in it.
via L&N, ACL Montgomery Bingo! To me, this was the really obscure one.
I dunno..I'm getting lost..
via IC, CofGA and ACL Birmingham and Montgomery
via IC, CofGA, AB&C, and ACL Birmingham, Albany, Waycross
via SOU. GS&F Atlanta
via L&N, ACL Montgomery
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