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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, December 12, 2023 3:49 PM

The answer to the other question was the Erie.  Not this one.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, December 11, 2023 7:10 PM

The Atlantic and Pacific Expresses dated back to 1885.  The bus connections started after WWII, and moved with the Erie to DL&W's Hoboken Terminal.  Based on where they were going in New York, the Lincoln Tunnel makes the most sense.  The bus destinations are listed with the other question.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 10, 2023 12:56 PM

The railroad in question was not the Susquehanna, c although I was mistaken (actually misguided by a citation in Wikipedia -- not for the first time -- about the name train-operating road.

The two other stations definitely had name train service met by dedicated coaches, one of which (with names of great antiquity, I believe) was interesting for having a bus connection in one direction but not the other in at least one timetable.

I find it almost incomprehensible that rcdrye hasn't jumped on this.

Or on my other active question, which yes, is related...

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 10, 2023 10:11 AM

I was the first to come up with the SusyQ, but it is  possible you really meant the Erie.  And RC  had  details I lacked.  I leave vto both of yoy, and I think I can have a question if requested.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, December 7, 2023 12:35 PM

daveklepper
I recall that many of the self-propelled ACF cars that ran to and from downtown Paterson did not use Erie Terminal but ised Susquehanna  Transfer as an end-point.

Certainly made better sense from an equipment-utilization standpoint, and I suspect additional trips for a given capacity was part of enabling the increase in ridership that Kidde saw so quickly after the arrangement was imolemented.

I have already explained what I think was the reason the Northern Branch trains, even with their ridiculous post-'58 terminal access, didn't make more use of the bus transfer in the same way.

I wasn't there at the time, but I think the construction of the Susquehanna Transfer operation was timed to open when the 'express highway' extending Route 3 across to the helix and the Lincoln Tunnel opened.  At that point about 600 buses per day were going through the tunnel!

I wonder whether the exclusive bus lane, which was initiated at the end of 1970, would have proven enough of an 'enhancement' to bus service from Susquehanna Transfer in the mornings to make it more attractive.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 7, 2023 8:19 AM

I recall that many of the self-propelled ACF cars that ran to and from downtown Patterson did not use Erie Terminal but ised Susquuahanna  Transfer as an end-point.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, December 7, 2023 6:50 AM

North Bergen NJ.  Site is where I-495 crosses the Susquehanna.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 7, 2023 12:50 AM

In what actual geographical location was Susquahanna Transfer located?

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 7:52 PM

One of the points was Susquehanna Transfer.  The others were in New Jersey, and not very far from each other.  

As a hint, the bus service from the two ceased the same year as Erie Northern Branch trains could have used Susquehanna Transfer.  (I am not sure how long the Northern Branch trains did; the latest schedule I can find easily is from 1959, and does not show that all the six daily trains stopped there even then.)

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 12:06 PM

The mainline transfer point was just Susquehanna Transfer.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 11:30 AM

As far as I recollect, the only NYCity stations werefirst vthe Dixiw Hotel  Bus Terminal and then the Port Authority Bus Terminal, a move sometime afgter WWII.

The three NJ points would be  Erie Terminal, with baggage  service for trains  that terminated there (not all SuzieQ trains went that far, oarticularly the self-propelled cars that reversed at the main-line trasnsfwe point), and the transfer point on thast main line west of the lincoln Tunnel, and the third on the Erie Northern Branch.  Never knew  the name of the last, and forgot the name of the  second.  RC?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 11:11 AM

Are these two stations in NY,

or are they relocated transfer points in NJ?

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 10:57 AM

My point was that NYS&W didn't own the buses and didn't employ the drivers.  The ticketing reflected the fact that no additional pickup stops were made and the service was an extension of rail fare.

The other two stations did not provide service 'free to ticketholders'; they charged the highly interesting price of 91 cents -- guess why -- and at least in the late Fifties made a point of noting in the timetables that checked baggage would NOT be handled on the motorcoaches.  Points to someone who knows where any checked baggage would go for pickup later...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 8:04 AM

I remembered the tickets, not the label on the sides of the buses.  They may also have haf a different colior scheme than most PSofNJ buses, a color scheme like that of the Suzie-Q's ACF self-propelled cars.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 6, 2023 7:26 AM

NYS&W did use Public Service buses, but they were used for NYS&W (and Erie) passengers, using NYS&W tickets.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, December 5, 2023 8:27 PM

They weren't NYS&W buses -- I think, and Wayne can check this, that they were Public Service.

The Susquehanna was run by the Erie when Kidde got the Transfer running, and the Northern Branch ran right by North Bergen, so it was a 'natural' for both operations to take advantage of the connection.  I have seen a 1959 Northern Branch schedule that shows the period that the buses ran into the Port Authority terminal (so indicated in the timetable as a 'stop') and interestingly one of the six trains did not stop there.

Why the Transfer wasn't a big thing after the Erie quit Pavonia is another matter.  Getting into Hoboken was a grand rigmarole of backing and hitching that added a considerable time to the trip, which might have made the 'shortcut' to midtown more attractive... BUT...

even in the late Fifties the grand rivalry between the Public Service and Red and Tan buses was on, which had something like 20-minute headways EACH along much of the Northern Branch route and went straight into the Port Authority terminal without a change.  Stilwells towed by RS2s and 3s wasn't much competition for that.

But what are the other two stations with bus connections to name trains?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:24 AM

Erie patrons on the NY & NJ (which passed Susquehanna Transfer) were allowed to use NYS&W busses.  I don't think Erie ever ran its own.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:16 AM

Overmod, I never heard of the Erie itself having connection buses to Manhattan, and you weill have to provide more specific information.  I pointed out that the Suzie-Q did provide buses for its passengers from the Erie J. C. terminsal before WWII (RC followed on this.), and possibly Erie passengers somehow were accomodated.  Two Erie name trains were the Erie Limited and  the Atlantic Limited.

After WWII, when the NYSq&W buses began using the Lincoln Tunnel to the new Port Authority Bus Terminal, the transfer point was established on the main line, not to Erie tracks used by the NYSq&W, but I just do not know the remember the name of that location.  I also that, before that change, there were times or specific schedules that the buses used the Holland Tunnel, not always the Erie ferries, to the Dixie Hotel Terminal.

Possibly the deal that was not in effect all the time when i used the Erie ferries myself was that SuzieQ let Erie out passengers on its  buses  in return for having the buses ride the ferries?

When I rode the Erie, I used the ferries or the H&M (now PATH).  And again, a a teenage and younger NYCity-area railfan, I knew only of the B&O and the SuzieQ as having buses to Manhattan, with the B&O also to Brooklyn.

The hotel-basement bus terminal had a bus turntable.  It was small compared  to the huge Port Authority facility.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, December 4, 2023 10:37 AM

daveklepper
Overmod:  B&O buses  did not use the Holland Tunnel but were carried on the CofNJ ferries, except on the very rare occasions when the Hudson was frozen.

I keep having to be reminded of this.  There was only a 'direct' route from the B&O's terminal (now Liberty State Park) after the Turnpike extension was built (14B to 14C would be the route) but that was only finished circa 1956, very close to the end of the long-distance B&O trains.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, December 4, 2023 10:33 AM

I was working on the assumption that the name trains were on the 'Erie' (meaning the Northern Branch) rather than the Erie-controlled Suskie.

But there are still two other stations and their routes (and name trains served) to be cited.  Truthfully, it won't be difficult to document them...

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, December 4, 2023 8:35 AM

Actually I had a hard time finding any info abuou the busses.  There was a period when busses ran from the Erie's Jersey City station/ferry terminal.  

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 4, 2023 7:59 AM

RC probably knows more than I do, and might be able to define the other bus-rail transfer points.  If he wishes, I defer to him as winner to ask the nest question, otherweise, I'll try to do my best.  Thanks.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, December 3, 2023 12:28 PM

The name trains were the Noontimer and the Matinee Special.  Both were part of a program promoting non-rush hour travel on the NYS&W.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 3, 2023 2:44 AM

NY Sussquanna & Western had bus connections to Manhattan at various  times, with only one NJ transfer point at a particular tine, but at least two and possibly three in its history. The Erie Terminal was one, possibly Edgewater another.   Two Manhattan Terminals were the Dixie Hotel basement bus terminal, and later the Port Authority Bus Terminal.  Prewar WWII buses used the Erie Ferry and the Holland Tunnel.  Post WWII, the Lincoln Tunnel.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 3, 2023 1:04 AM

Overmod:  B&O buses  did not use the Holland Tunnel but were carried on the CofNJ ferries, except on the very rare occasions when the Hudson was frozen.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 2, 2023 8:18 AM

Another railroad featured connecting dedicated bus service into Manhattan, from not one but three stations at various times.  Name them, and at least one of the connecting name trains that featured the service in each case.

Extra points for the years active, and the routes the buses followed.

(Two of these are easy; the third perhaps not so much, particularly with respect to its two name trains...)

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 23, 2023 9:44 AM

My 8th-grade trip-to-Washington used the Columbus Circle Station.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, November 22, 2023 9:29 AM

B&O's 1948 OG listing shows 5 routes with a claim of 13 possible stops.  The map shows 16, because three of them are all served by the Grand Central Station stop, and two of the hotels are across the street from each other.  

Columbus Circle Station

Hotel Lincoln (45th and 8th)

Hotel New Yorker (34th and 8th)

Hotel Victoria (51st and 7th)

Hotel Taft (51st and 7th)

Pennsylvania Hotel (33rd and 7th, across the street from Penn Station)

Governor Clinton Hotel (29th and 7th)

McAlpin Hotel (34th and Broadway)

Rockefeller Center Station (49th St)

Grand Central Terminal

Hotel Commodore (42nd and Park)

42nd St Station

Vanderbilt Hotel (33rd and Park (4th))

Wanamakers (9th and Lafayette)

Liberty Street Station

Brooklyn Station (Eagle Bldg.)

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 22, 2023 6:58 AM

daveklepper
The B&O had all its "Royal Blue" Washington - Jersey City (trackside bus connection to Manhattan, 2 [or 3?] locations, and Brooklyn, 1), long before the PRR Washington-NY, which did it mostly post-WWII.

I used to know where the bus 'route' went in Manhattan -- for some reason I thought they got up to 5 routes at one point, three of which involved multiple hotels, and a couple of the stops going back were different from the ones going in (23rd St ferries?)

I could never really understand why 'checked baggage' through the Holland Tunnel right to your hotel wasn't an advantage over a one-seat ride to the bowels of Penn Station somewhere.  Of course I was only a year old when the party stopped.  I will say they missed the boat somewhat by not having more amenities on the buses to extend the 'experience' on the train -- this wasn't the same operating model as the NYW&B's use of last-mile 'transit'.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 22, 2023 1:30 AM

I think Pullman was actually first, diners possibly as well as sleepers, but C&O had the first all-air-conditioned train, coaches and slerepers,  the George Washington, even beforr Pullman had air-conditioned a majority of its sleepers.  And the C&O then continued for the other two named trains, the Sportsman, anf the Fast Flying Virginian.

The B&O had all its "Royal Blue" Washington - Jersey City (trackside bus cionnection to Manhattan, 2 [or 3?] locations, and Brooklyn, 1), long before the PRR Washington-NY, which did it mostly post-WWII.

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