Did ever a train called the City of St. Louis not involve the UP?
Here's a couple old pics to ponder, Union Station train shed and Wabash Blue Bird
http://texashistory.unt.edu/data/SUM2007/MARD/box_02/upl-meta-pth-28757/0206.jpg
http://texashistory.unt.edu/data/SUM2007/MARD/box_03/upl-meta-pth-28718/0220.jpg
Yes, ZephryOverland, I agree that a great change came after 4/30/1971, and we should share our knowledge of the passenger service that existed when the railroads themselves operated it--and all of this is now classic.
I should be able to remember the name of the train you have in mind, but, just as the N&W's City of Decatur escaped me, the name of the last one escapes me. Perhaps I never considered trying to ride it (several of my trips from 1962 to 4/30/1971 were tailored so I could ride particular trains or routes).
Johnny
wanswheelDid ever a train called the City of St. Louis not involve the UP?
Bingo!
In the mid 1960's, N&W decided to pull out of the joint operation of the City of St. Louis with the UP. So, the N&W portion became the St. Louis-Kansas City City of St. Louis and the UP renamed their train the City of Kansas City, ironically a name which was previously applied to a Wabash St. Louis-Kansas City train.
Good job all. TexasZepher got the majority of the names, so he gets to ask the next question.
ZephyrOverlandTexasZepher got the majority of the names, so he gets to ask the next question.
The geared shay locomotive was heavily used in the conifer forests of the American Northwest and deciduous forests of the East. They were not so common in the plains or desert southwest where the Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe ran. Name the Railroad that used Shays that had an exclusive contract with the Santa Fe for delivering cargo beyond their rails, and the Junction where these railroads met, and just to tell the whole story name the Santa Fe branch where this junction was.
And I really hope there is only one of these!
Texas Zepher ZephyrOverlandTexasZepher got the majority of the names, so he gets to ask the next question.Ok, enough passenger trains for the moment.... The geared shay locomotive was heavily used in the conifer forests of the American Northwest and deciduous forests of the East. They were not so common in the plains or desert southwest where the Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe ran. Name the Railroad that used Shays that had an exclusive contract with the Santa Fe for delivering cargo beyond their rails, and the Junction where these railroads met, and just to tell the whole story name the Santa Fe branch where this junction was. And I really hope there is only one of these!
I believe it may have been the KCS which had two shays used for industrial switching in Kansas City. I don't know anything about a contract or connection with the SF though.
Mark
Hi guys,
You may have noticed that on the previous page (14) that the page stretched out WAY over to the right side of the page. This happens sometimes when a user copies and paste text from another source. If you see that happen to one of your posts, please edit your post by doing the following...
- Cut out all your text- Paste your text into a program that will convert the copied characters to straight text (I use NotePad on my PC religously)- Cut the text and paste it back into your post.
That should fix the formatting error. If you're pasting from a Microsoft Word document, please notice the icon for "Paste from Word" that's located in the message editor tool bar just to the left of the HTML icon. (First row, far right.)
That Paste from Word feature will remove extraneous coding that Word slaps into its text (for some unknown reason).
Thanks for the help! And if you ever notice a thread that's blown out to the right, let us know and we'll fix it.
Take care,Bergie
That's good advice, Bergie, and I have yet another situation for those who have tried the above solution and still found it not wrapping lines correctly.
Copy the text to your textbook or notepad function. Uncheck the "Word Wrap" feature that is in the top bar, right next to font changes.
Your text will shoot out to infnity on the screen and will only "wrap" when you have manually returned and skipped a line to start a new paragraph.
Copy again, and then paste that copy into Word or your brower (TRAINS sites for example). Your text will "wrap" into the normal template with no extra phrases or truncated lines.
The more stuff it does, the trickier it gets, I guess . . . al
TZ,
Was I right about the Shays being KCS engines? If not I'm gonna need some hints from you before I have a clue as to the answer. I'm guessing these engines worked out of the KCS Knoche Yard but don't know if that's where a junction with the SF was located.
EEEeeek, What happened to my post????
Try again. I was not aware that the KCS had any shays! But even so, I am certain that the KCS did not have an exclusive contract for interchange with the Santa Fe so they would not meet the total scope of the question.
The Shays were used by a logging company in what I would say was the least likely state of the Union to have a lumber industry.
Ummm, another clue without giving it away. Some of the Santa Fe named passenger trains would use this branch in special situations.
KCS used shays in KC, There was an article on the 2-10-4's of KCS and that was a sidebar note in said article.900 and 901 IIRC were the numbers.
Would it be in New Mexico?Or maybe Kansas?Stumped to say the least lol.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
Least likely state for logging would seem to be Kansas, but I saw a picture of a Shay on Rio Grande Southern in Colorado, and the D&RG tracks on the old map connect to Santa Fe, NM, the city.
wanswheel Least likely state for logging would seem to be Kansas, but I saw a picture of a Shay on Rio Grande Southern in Colorado, and the D&RG tracks on the old map connect to Santa Fe, NM, the city.
It couldn't be the D&RGW at Santa Fe, NM. The only service the Rio Grand had into Santa Fe was the narrow gauge Chili Line which of course couldn't interchange with the AT&SF because of the gauge difference. Santa Fe was at the end of a branch off the AT&SF main line at Lamy. Except when the Chili line was in service, Santa Fe had no rail service other than this stub ended branch. This would preclude the occasional use of this line by named passenger trains which TZ gave as a hint.
I agree that Kansas seems to be the least likely state for logging so I'll take a WAG and throw out Topeka as the location of this arrangement. Topeka is also on a Santa Fe branch that seems a logical detour route if the main was blocked between Kansas City and Emporia. As to the rest of the question I don't have a clue.
Was it the Santa Fe Grand Canyon Branch in Arizona and Santa Fe did have trains named the Grand Canyons.
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan Was it the Santa Fe Grand Canyon Branch in Arizona and Santa Fe did have trains named the Grand Canyons. Al - in - Stockton
KCSfan It couldn't be the D&RGW at Santa Fe, NM. The only service the Rio Grand had into Santa Fe was the narrow gauge Chili Line which of course couldn't interchange with the AT&SF because of the gauge difference. Santa Fe was at the end of a branch off the AT&SF main line at Lamy. Except when the Chili line was in service, Santa Fe had no rail service other than this stub ended branch. This would preclude the occasional use of this line by named passenger trains which TZ gave as a hint. Mark
I'm wondering if what I previously posted about Santa Fe being served by the AT&SF only via the stub end branch from Lamy (which today is the SFS) is correct. In looking at a map in a 1954 OG there appears to be a branch that leaves the main at Watrous and goes thru Santa Fe and Kehne (sp?) and rejoins the main at Albuquerque which I never knew existed. There's an arrow that points to this line and identifies it as "Indian Detour". These old OG maps lack a lot of detail and are hard to read so I may be misinterpreting what I think I see. Hopefuly someone has access to a more detailed map of that area in earlier times and will confirm or correct my observations. Situations like this make you appreciate the highly detailed division maps that are available today on the BNSF web site,
KCSfan KCSfan It couldn't be the D&RGW at Santa Fe, NM. The only service the Rio Grand had into Santa Fe was the narrow gauge Chili Line which of course couldn't interchange with the AT&SF because of the gauge difference. Santa Fe was at the end of a branch off the AT&SF main line at Lamy. Except when the Chili line was in service, Santa Fe had no rail service other than this stub ended branch. This would preclude the occasional use of this line by named passenger trains which TZ gave as a hint. Mark I'm wondering if what I previously posted about Santa Fe being served by the AT&SF only via the stub end branch from Lamy (which today is the SFS) is correct. In looking at a map in a 1954 OG there appears to be a branch that leaves the main at Watrous and goes thru Santa Fe and Kehne (sp?) and rejoins the main at Albuquerque which I never knew existed. There's an arrow that points to this line and identifies it as "Indian Detour". These old OG maps lack a lot of detail and are hard to read so I may be misinterpreting what I think I see. Hopefuly someone has access to a more detailed map of that area in earlier times and will confirm or correct my observations. Situations like this make you appreciate the highly detailed division maps that are available today on the BNSF web site, Mark
Interesting discussion above, interesting lines of reasoning and counter points. I would actually have to research that to say how close or far from being along the right lines though, but .....
passengerfanWas it the Santa Fe Grand Canyon Branch in Arizona and Santa Fe did have trains named the Grand Canyons.
It should be easy now to track down the railroad and junction.
Deggesty Indian Detours were motor coach tours that were operated in connection with passsenger train schedules. It was possible to detrain at one station, take a tour, and rejoin your train at another station.
Indian Detours were motor coach tours that were operated in connection with passsenger train schedules. It was possible to detrain at one station, take a tour, and rejoin your train at another station.
Now that makes sense. It sure looks like a rail line on the map in the OG and it never ocurred to me that Indian Detour might refer to a motor coach route. I knew that for quite a time there was bus service to and from Santa Fe that connected with AT&SF passenger trains at Lamy. Thanks Deggesty for clearing up the doubts I was beginning to have about my knowledge of the Santa Fe lines in this area.
An additional comment on Indian Detours: I don't think that you would have rejoined the same train that you left to take the detour; it probably would been at least the next day if not later. There were also detours operated in conjunction with the SP in Arizona. These are indicated in a reprint of a 1930 Official Guide.
Texas Zepherpassengerfanthe Santa Fe Grand Canyon Branch in Arizona and Santa Fe did have trains named the Grand Canyons.
passengerfanthe Santa Fe Grand Canyon Branch in Arizona and Santa Fe did have trains named the Grand Canyons.
OK, now that we are on the right branch. It should be easy now to track down the railroad, and not quite so easily the name of the junction.
Ok, not as easy as I thought. I could swear I looked it up easily before I posted the question...but I just now tried again and couldn't find a hit so...
The railroad is the Saginaw & Manistee Lumber Company. They had at least two shays. It branched out of the Grand Canyon line at Apex. The line went about 5 miles east and then branched like a spider web through the trees. The web angled to the south east but ten miles east, in the middle of the spider web, the line got almost to the south rim.
For any modelers, this would be an awesome place to model where shays working the logging meet in a fairly simple track arrangement with the Santa Fe. In addition to the Grand Canyon passenger traffic, the Santa Fe also had livestock and mining operations along this track.
passengerfan take it away - but please not another specific passenger car question
Pacific Railway Equipment delivered three coaches one each to three Railroads. What feature distinguished the coaches and what railroads received them? Also what were the seating capacities of each? One of the cars was named, what was it's name? What were the numbers the other two carried?
The three coaches were built with pendulum suspension. They were delivered one each to ATSF, CB&Q, and GN. The Burlington car was named "Silver Pendulum", I don't know the numbers of the other two or the seating capacities.
CSSHEGEWISCH The three coaches were built with pendulum suspension. They were delivered one each to ATSF, CB&Q, and GN. The Burlington car was named "Silver Pendulum", I don't know the numbers of the other two or the seating capacities.
The CB&Q received 6000 Silver Pendulum in January 1942 it was a 60 seat coach.
The GN also received there car 999 a 68-seat coach in January 1942.
The AT&SF car spent its entire career on the west coast as an extra car in San Diegan service.
The CB&Q car operated in secondary trains systemwide but never in Zephyr service. Its final service was behind a doodlebug operating out of St. Joseph Mo.
The GN car like the other two was delivered painted silver and assigned to the Puget Sounders between Seattle and Vancouver. When the new Internationals were delivered the car was painted in EB colors to match and ran as an extra in that train as well as the GN Seattle - Portland pool train. The GN car underwent shopping in the latter 1950's and had its windows squared off. It is not clear if it had regular trucks installed at that time or the Pendulum trucks remained.
I was fortunate to ride on all three including the GN car both before and after modifications.
The sad part is not one of these interesting cars was saved.
Al - in - Stockton, can't you wait until a decent time in the day before you ask your questions? When I read the question, I thought, "He is testing us on our short time memory, since he gave us all the information recently"--and before I got out of bed, Paul answered the question, a little bit better than I could have, since the name "Silver Pendulum" had slipped my memory. I also had not committed the capacities to memory, even though I did remember that the GN had squared the windows off. I also remembered that, way back, there was amention of SFe's pendulum car (with no description) in Trains.
Can you give me some information as to the taxi service in Stockton? Last year, we came into Stockton from San Jose (adding new mileage to our travels), and we had to wait for an hour before we could get a taxi to our hotel. The driver who at last picked us up agreed to come for us the next morning so we would be able to take our train out.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe three coaches were built with pendulum suspension. They were delivered one each to ATSF, CB&Q, and GN.
Deggesty Al - in - Stockton, can't you wait until a decent time in the day before you ask your questions? When I read the question, I thought, "He is testing us on our short time memory, since he gave us all the information recently"--and before I got out of bed, Paul answered the question, a little bit better than I could have, since the name "Silver Pendulum" had slipped my memory. I also had not committed the capacities to memory, even though I did remember that the GN had squared the windows off. I also remembered that, way back, there was amention of SFe's pendulum car (with no description) in Trains. Can you give me some information as to the taxi service in Stockton? Last year, we came into Stockton from San Jose (adding new mileage to our travels), and we had to wait for an hour before we could get a taxi to our hotel. The driver who at last picked us up agreed to come for us the next morning so we would be able to take our train out. Johnny
The taxi service in Stockton is lousy to say the least. Best I can do is give you an 800 number 1-800-954-5595 you can book in advance and have the cab waiting.
I will try and ask questions at a more reasonable hour in the future.
passengerfan Deggesty Al - in - Stockton, can't you wait until a decent time in the day before you ask your questions? When I read the question, I thought, "He is testing us on our short time memory, since he gave us all the information recently"--and before I got out of bed, Paul answered the question, a little bit better than I could have, since the name "Silver Pendulum" had slipped my memory. I also had not committed the capacities to memory, even though I did remember that the GN had squared the windows off. I also remembered that, way back, there was amention of SFe's pendulum car (with no description) in Trains. Can you give me some information as to the taxi service in Stockton? Last year, we came into Stockton from San Jose (adding new mileage to our travels), and we had to wait for an hour before we could get a taxi to our hotel. The driver who at last picked us up agreed to come for us the next morning so we would be able to take our train out. Johnny Johnny The taxi service in Stockton is lousy to say the least. Best I can do is give you an 800 number 1-800-954-5595 you can book in advance and have the cab waiting. I will try and ask questions at a more reasonable hour in the future. Al - in - Stockton
Post when you feel that you should; not everybody gets up as early as Paul.
Paul It is your question?
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