ZephyrOverland There was one other example of a line that was using a regular sleeper for a Slumbercoach type service: The L&N operated a "Budget Sleeper" between Cincinnati and Memphis on the Humming Bird using a 6 section-6 roomette-4 double bedroom car. I entered this earlier but for some reason the system didn't process my post.
There was one other example of a line that was using a regular sleeper for a Slumbercoach type service:
The L&N operated a "Budget Sleeper" between Cincinnati and Memphis on the Humming Bird using a 6 section-6 roomette-4 double bedroom car.
I entered this earlier but for some reason the system didn't process my post.
I guess we would probably have to include the Milwaukee Road Touralux Sleepers as they to were built post war. They were operated in the Olympian Hiawatha initially later being asssigned to the Columbian and later Pioneer.
The Canadian National streamlined a number of 14 section sleeping cars for assignment to the Continental and Super Continental. The Canadian Pacific added SS panels to a number of 14 Section sleepers for assignment to the Canadian and also the Dominion to match there new Budd cars but they retained there clerestory roofs.
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan ZephyrOverland There was one other example of a line that was using a regular sleeper for a Slumbercoach type service: The L&N operated a "Budget Sleeper" between Cincinnati and Memphis on the Humming Bird using a 6 section-6 roomette-4 double bedroom car. I entered this earlier but for some reason the system didn't process my post. I guess we would probably have to include the Milwaukee Road Touralux Sleepers as they to were built post war. They were operated in the Olympian Hiawatha initially later being asssigned to the Columbian and later Pioneer. The Canadian National streamlined a number of 14 section sleeping cars for assignment to the Continental and Super Continental. The Canadian Pacific added SS panels to a number of 14 Section sleepers for assignment to the Canadian and also the Dominion to match there new Budd cars but they retained there clerestory roofs. Al - in - Stockton Is it proper to include the Touralux sleepers? There was a separate fare structure for this class of service, as I recall, higher than coach and lower than Pullman, plus the space charge. Also, these were open section sleepers, not all-room.
Is it proper to include the Touralux sleepers? There was a separate fare structure for this class of service, as I recall, higher than coach and lower than Pullman, plus the space charge. Also, these were open section sleepers, not all-room.
Johnny
If there's any interest, and patience to wait for a page to load, there's a not-too-bad picture of a B&O Slumbercoach on page 285 of "The American Railroad Passenger Car" by John H. White.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VmZmOS5rm5MC&pg=PA285&dq=slumbercoach&as_brr=3
Need to scroll up a notch to where the picture is and, if it looks like it's worth the bother to enlarge, click the little box with 4 arrows to expand the viewing field, and then click the little magnifying glass with the plus sign. I find out all kinds of neat stuff at Google Book Search, like that in 1833 John Quincy Adams and Cornelius Vanderbilt both survived the first fatal train crash, and that there was a through Slumbercoach from Baltimore to San Antonio (and back) on B&O National Limited and MP Texas Eagle from 1959 to 1964.
Here's a picture of the Texas Eagle in Houston, and what looks like a '53 Chevy
http://texashistory.unt.edu/data/SUM2007/MARD/box_02/upl-meta-pth-28797/0146.jpg
DeggestyIs it proper to include the Touralux sleepers? There was a separate fare structure for this class of service, as I recall, higher than coach and lower than Pullman, plus the space charge. Also, these were open section sleepers, not all-room.
That's what I also thought about the Touralux sleepers. But in doing some quick research, I found out that in the late1950's, the Milwaukee Road repriced the Touralux accommodations to the coach-fare-plus-accommodation-charge format so technically, they could be considered.
wanswheel If there's any interest, and patience to wait for a page to load, there's a not-too-bad picture of a B&O Slumbercoach on page 285 of "The American Railroad Passenger Car" by John H. White. http://books.google.com/books?id=VmZmOS5rm5MC&pg=PA285&dq=slumbercoach&as_brr=3 Need to scroll up a notch to where the picture is and, if it looks like it's worth the bother to enlarge, click the little box with 4 arrows to expand the viewing field, and then click the little magnifying glass with the plus sign. I find out all kinds of neat stuff at Google Book Search, like that in 1833 John Quincy Adams and Cornelius Vanderbilt both survived the first fatal train crash, and that there was a through Slumbercoach from Baltimore to San Antonio (and back) on B&O National Limited and MP Texas Eagle from 1959 to 1964. Here's a picture of the Texas Eagle in Houston, and what looks like a '53 Chevy http://texashistory.unt.edu/data/SUM2007/MARD/box_02/upl-meta-pth-28797/0146.jpg
And the reason the B&O and MP operated the through slumbercoach service to San Antonio from Washington DC instead of Houston was because of the large Military population traveling between the cities selected.
Just a side reference re the Military troop sleepers they were quickly done away with following the war and sold to RRs or even scrap in some cases except for the trucks that were more valuable for fast passenger train service than the cars. Many roads converted the ex troop sleepers to Baggage cars which by the end of the war were a severe shortage for most roads.
The Government needed a large inventory of sleeping cars to be maintained for war time emergency and with the major passenger carriers streamlining there fleets as fast as they could the Military looked to Pullman for a source of cars. They decided to kill two birds with one stone so to speak. Eliminate all Tourist sleeping cars not RR owned by declaring them Military Emergency Equipment. So those western RRs that had operated many of the 14-section and 16-section sleeping cars as tourist cars suddenly lost them. As this was not enough equipment they turned to Pullman and that was when huge numbers of 12-1 heavyweights went into military storage as well. All of these cars would see service during the Korean war and some even survived long enough for troop transport duty for the Vietnam War. The RRs brought troops to Oakland and Seattle and other major designated cities where they boarded planes for SE Asia. Since then nearly all Military transport is by air. No longer are large numbers of RR cars stored for military emergency as they have all been scrapped.
On certain trains in the last few years before Amtrak the sole sleeping facilities on the train was the slumbercoach. This was true for the Mainstreeter that not only lost it's first class sleeper but also lost its crew dormitory with part of the Slumbercoach designated crew space after that.
ZephyrOverland DeggestyIs it proper to include the Touralux sleepers? There was a separate fare structure for this class of service, as I recall, higher than coach and lower than Pullman, plus the space charge. Also, these were open section sleepers, not all-room. That's what I also thought about the Touralux sleepers. But in doing some quick research, I found out that in the late1950's, the Milwaukee Road repriced the Touralux accommodations to the coach-fare-plus-accommodation-charge format so technically, they could be considered.
The Tourist Sleepers were usually operated with the coach section of the trains and separate from the first class sleepers. Looking through several OGs of the period when these cars were popular I find that being operated by the RRs and not Pullman there was no upgrade to Pullman but just a charge for the sleeping space over and above coach fare.
Pullman wanted to get rid of the tourist sleepers following WW II and did so by telling the Military that the WW II built troop sleepers were not designed to last but were built to see the country through the national emergency. When the military was considering storing the troop sleepers they instead were told the 14 Section and 16 Section sleepers would last far longer and give better service when called upon.
Thus the 14 Section and 16 Section Tourist sleepers were selected for storage for the next national emergency. This was also the way that many 12-1 sleepers also found there way into storage for the military in time of emergency. During the Korean conflict our troops went to the ports in Pullman sleepers and the railroads had rid themselves of the Tourist Sleepers.
The first streamlined trains to bring back this type accommodation was the Milwaukee Road with the Touralux sleepers in the Olympian Hiawatha.
North of the border the CN rebuilt heavyweight tourist sleepers into semi streamlined tourist sleepers for assignment to the Super Continental and Continental in 1954-55. At the same time CP was adding Budd corrugated SS panels to heavyweight tourist sleepers and painting them to match there new Budd equipment for assignment to the new Canadian and Dominion.
The flood gates opened on economy sleeping accommodations with the introduction of Budd Slumbercoaches. Even though the California Zephyr and UP RR both operated new lightweight 16 and 14 Section Sleepers respectively they were strictly first class cars. And both the CZ cars and the UP cars were rebuilt to leg rest coaches.
In North America today the only section accommodation offered is in Canada on Via Rail. Amtrak never offered scetions but did operate the Slumbercoaches for a number of years.
passengerfanThe Tourist Sleepers were usually operated with the coach section of the trains and separate from the first class sleepers. Looking through several OGs of the period when these cars were popular I find that being operated by the RRs and not Pullman there was no upgrade to Pullman but just a charge for the sleeping space over and above coach fare.
The fact that later tourist sleeper operations were railroad operated is correct but the tourist fare that was being charged was not coach-fare-plus-accommodation-charge but was a tourist-level fare priced between first class and coach. The coach-fare-plus-accommodation-charge concept came with the Slumbercoaches.
ZephyrOverland passengerfan The Tourist Sleepers were usually operated with the coach section of the trains and separate from the first class sleepers. Looking through several OGs of the period when these cars were popular I find that being operated by the RRs and not Pullman there was no upgrade to Pullman but just a charge for the sleeping space over and above coach fare. The fact that later tourist sleeper operations were railroad operated is correct but the tourist fare that was being charged was not coach-fare-plus-accommodation-charge but was a tourist-level fare priced between first class and coach. The coach-fare-plus-accommodation-charge concept came with the Slumbercoaches.
passengerfan The Tourist Sleepers were usually operated with the coach section of the trains and separate from the first class sleepers. Looking through several OGs of the period when these cars were popular I find that being operated by the RRs and not Pullman there was no upgrade to Pullman but just a charge for the sleeping space over and above coach fare.
Actually the prewar UP Challenger and prewar AT&SF Scout and CRI&P/SP Californian all introduced RR owned tourist sleeping cars with it only being necessary to purchase coach tickets and the accommodation charges. True it did disappear for a time after WW II when the Tourist sleeping cars were done away with but was reintroduced by the Milwaukee with their Touralux cars before the CB&Q introduced the Slumbercoaches. Both CN and CP introduced Tourist sleeper fares before the Slumber coaches were introduced as well. These were found on the CP Canadian and Dominion and CN Super Continental and Continental in 1955 before the Slumbercoaches were introduced in 1956.
Another category of sleeper that the CP (and maybe CN) operated in the earlier fifties was colonist--the passengers provided their own bedding.
In 1907, my mother and her parents and brothers traveled from Seattle to St. Paul on the Oriental Limited in a tourist sleeper--and they prepared their meals in the car, which had kitchen facilities.
Deggesty Another category of sleeper that the CP (and maybe CN) operated in the earlier fifties was colonist--the passengers provided their own bedding. In 1907, my mother and her parents and brothers traveled from Seattle to St. Paul on the Oriental Limited in a tourist sleeper--and they prepared their meals in the car, which had kitchen facilities.
I love the slumbercoach concept! In 1982 a friend and I took one east on the Water Level Route to NYC and then west back to Chicago on the Horseshoe Curve Route. Our one-over-one compartment was louder and a bit colder than the sleepers, and I think had more exposed surfaces. Nonetheless I slept like a top. I for one would rather ride (or sleep) longitudinally; i.e., in the direction the train is moving, not transversely (sideways).
Now that genuine sleepers are becoming an almost-unaffordable luxury for most of us, I would think that Amtrak would (or should) warm to the idea of extra-fare accommodations that can fit more people in a car than the Viewliners or the newer Superliner type of layout. With no meals included and a more limited porter (oops, attendant) service. - a.s.
Next question. How many trains during the age of the streamliners provided the most deluxe accommodation the Master Room?
This question can be a little on the tricky side.
passengerfanHow many trains during the age of the streamliners provided the most deluxe accommodation the Master Room?
The first two cars (lot 6548) PRR #8115 Metropolitan View and #8116 Skyline View were purchased for the Broadway Limited. When the Pennsy decided to upgrade the General and use it as the 2nd section of the Broadway Limited they purchased two more cars the Mountain View and Tower View (don't know the numbers or lot number). Then the PRR also decided to make an equally luxurious train that ran straight to Washington D.C. which required two more cars the Federal View and Washington view. These were originally run in the train called the Liberty Limited. Somewhere in here the General was combined with the Trail Blazer and the combined train got these cars. I cannot find this type of car in any of the St. Louis to Washington trains.
It depends where one ends the streamliner era and the Broadway Limited stopped in 1967, but....
In 1968 two of these cars the Mountain View and Tower View were transfered to the SCL and run on the Florida Special.
One of these cars is still Amtrak certified in service with Iron Horse Enterprise and used in excursions today.
So I think the short answer is four (4):Broadway LimitedGeneralTrail BlazerLiberty Limited
after streamline era
Florida Special.
While my Pennsy material is very limited I am suspicious that these cars might have been used for a while in the pool with the Southern for their Crescent Limited.
Texas Zepher passengerfanHow many trains during the age of the streamliners provided the most deluxe accommodation the Master Room?As near as I can tell the only car to carry a room of this type was Pullman floor plan #4080. Model Railroaders will recognize this as the "1930's observation" car produced by Rivarossi and distributed by AHM all through the past three decades. The first two cars (lot 6548) PRR #8115 Metropolitan View and #8116 Skyline View were purchased for the Broadway Limited. When the Pennsy decided to upgrade the General and use it as the 2nd section of the Broadway Limited they purchased two more cars the Mountain View and Tower View (don't know the numbers or lot number). Then the PRR also decided to make an equally luxurious train that ran straight to Washington D.C. which required two more cars the Federal View and Washington view. These were originally run in the train called the Liberty Limited. Somewhere in here the General was combined with the Trail Blazer and the combined train got these cars. I cannot find this type of car in any of the St. Louis to Washington trains. It depends where one ends the streamliner era and the Broadway Limited stopped in 1967, but.... In 1968 two of these cars the Mountain View and Tower View were transfered to the SCL and run on the Florida Special. One of these cars is still Amtrak certified in service with Iron Horse Enterprise and used in excursions today. So I think the short answer is four (4):Broadway LimitedGeneralTrail BlazerLiberty Limited after streamline era Florida Special. While my Pennsy material is very limited I am suspicious that these cars might have been used for a while in the pool with the Southern for their Crescent Limited.
The cars that ran on the Crescent had a different configuration--2 drawing room, master room, buffet lounge. There were four of them--2350 Crescent City, 2351 Crescent Harbor, 2352 Crescent Moon, and 2353 Crescent Shores. They were plan 4160, lot 6814, P-S, 1949. After the discontinuation of the Crescent, they were operated on the Southern Crescent between Washington and Atlanta.
The 1938 20th Century Limited had a 1 master room, 1 bedroom, buffet lounge observation car (Bedloes Island, Manhattan Island, Pelee Island, Thousand Islands, plan 4079, Lot 6547, P-S, 1938). The June 1955 Guide shows a 5 double bedroom lounge observation, so apparently the Central decided that it should replace the 1938 cars with cars with more rooms.
The two cars for the Liberty Limited were 8114 Federal View and 8117 Washington View (plan 4080, lot 6548).
The Trailblazer was an all coach train, which ran on the same schedule as the General, which was all pullman.
From Zephyr to Amtrak errs in listing the NYC and PRR observation cars as having a bedroom and not a master room.
I don't know of any other train that was regularly assigned a car with a master room. I did not remember the use of the ex-PRR cars on the Florida Special.
The PRR master room cars built after the war, 8419 Mountain View and 8420 Tower View, were plan 4133, lot 6792.
Texas Zephyr and Deggesty got almost all of them.
Here they are.
1-Double Bedroom 2 Master Room Buffet Lounge Observation Pullman Standard May 1938 Plan:4080 Lot 6548 Built for and assigned to prewar PRR Broadway Limited METROPOLITAN VIEW and SKYLINE VIEW. Built for and assigned to PRR Liberty Limited FEDERAL VIEW and WASHINGTON VIEW. Round end observations. When the Broadway Limited received its postwar mentioned below the METROPOLITAN VIEW and SKYLINE VIEW were assigned to the PRR General.
1-Double Bedroom 2 Master Room Buffet Lounge Observation Pullman Standard January 1949 Plan:4133 Lot: 6792 Built for and assigned to PRR Broadway Limited MOUNTAIN VIEW and SKYLINE VIEW. Tapered Blunt End Observations. These were the two Rivarrossi modeled. In the mid 1960's these cars were often assigned to two of the Florida Specials in winter months.
1 Double Bedroom 1-Master Room Buffet Lounge Observations Pullman Standard May 1938 Plan:4079 Lot 6547 Built for and assigned to NYC Twentieth Century Limited BEDLOWS ISLAND, MANHATTAN ISLAND, PELEE ISLAND and THOUSAND ISLAND. For a period beginning in November 1945 until June 1946 two of these cars were assigned to the Commodore Vanderbilt. This was the other all Pullman train between Chicago and New York. In July 1946 all four cars were pulled from service and rebuilt to 4 Double Bedroom Buffet Lounge Observations and assigned permanently to the Commodore Vanderbilt in September 1946 with two remaining with the Twentieth Century Limited until that train received its new Observations HICKORY CREEK and SANDY CREEK new 5-Double Bedroom Buffet Lounge Observations in September 1948. This means the Twentieth Century Limited operated with a Master Room for only eight years two months.
1 Master Room 2 Drawing Room Buffet Lounge Pullman Standard Plan: 4160 Lot 6814 Built for and assigned to Crescent Limited, later Crescent and still later Southern Crescent between New York and Atlanta. The four cars were 2350 CRESCENT CITY 2351 CRESCENT HARBOR 2352 CRESCENT MOON and 2353 CRESCENT SHORES.
Thanks guys for the research you must have done to find what you did. I hope this information helps fill in any blanks.
Let Deggesty ask the next question if he wants it. I've still got to think of some more hints for the question I have running on the Trains forum.
A View of the Broadway Limited
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=997964
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=997986
wanswheel A View of the Broadway Limited http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=997964 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=997986
Texas ZepherCool, what is the reference that you have access to that has this information? Is that the From Zephyr to Amtrak book you mentioned? I've got "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" by Wayner, but what it has in volume it lacks in picky details of WHEN things changed around.
Texas Zepher Let Deggesty ask the next question if he wants it. I've still got to think of some more hints for the question I have running on the Trains forum.
Can't be that many purple diesels out there .....ACL had purple as I recall. This one could be interesting.
President of Atlantic Coast Line in '59
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=368012
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,809624,00.html
wanswheel President of Atlantic Coast Line in '59 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=368012 Sheb Wooley in '58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9H_cI_WCnE
Sheb Wooley in '58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9H_cI_WCnE
Thanks for the song; I don't think I had heard it since 1958 nor did I remember Sheb Wooley's name.
William Thomas Rice
There was a purple diesel at Wilmington in 1958
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/7/6/9776.1072923300.jpg
And a black diesel at Jacksonville in 1960
http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/prints/pr09220.jpg
wanswheel William Thomas Rice There was a purple diesel at Wilmington in 1958 http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/7/6/9776.1072923300.jpg And a black diesel at Jacksonville in 1960 http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/prints/pr09220.jpg
Your question.
Deggesty, here's a fuller picture of the salute to General Rice, and his obit:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1232714
http://www.csx.com/?fuseaction=about.news_detail&i=48115
Too easy: At least 5 Trains named for a president?
wanswheel At least 5 Trains named for a president?
At least 5 Trains named for a president?
George Washington - Amtrak - Chicago-Washington
George Washington - C&O - Washington-Louisville/Cincinnati
John Quincy Adams - NH - New York-Boston
Abraham Lincoln - Amtrak - Chicago-St. Louis
Abraham Lincoln - Alton/GM&O - Chicago-St. Louis
Lincoln Limited - C&A - Chicago-St. Louis
Lincoln Service - Amtrak - Chicago-St. Louis
Jeffersonian - Amtrak - New York-Washington
Jeffersonian - PRR - New York-St. Louis
Jacksonian - PRR/L&N/NCStL/ACL/FEC - Chicago-Miami
ZephyrOverland, you're 200% right. Add only the Washingtonian, indirectly named for George, because my grandfather drove it on the CV in the steam era.
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