al-in-chgo L&N's Humming Bird?? - a.s.
L&N's Humming Bird?? - a.s.
Al - in - Stockton
You may want to check that. According to several sources that I have, the original 7-car consists of the Humming Bird and Georgian were built by American Car and Foundary, not the St. Louis Car Company.
ZephyrOverland You may want to check that. According to several sources that I have, the original 7-car consists of the Humming Bird and Georgian were built by American Car and Foundary, not the St. Louis Car Company.
A number of railroads discovered the marketing and branding power of naming their trains by fleets: the ATSF with the Chiefs, the Milwaukee Road with the Hiawathas and so on. The Pennsylvania Railroad, on the other hand, preferred to brand their top trains as the "Blue Ribbon" fleet. Despite this, the PRR had an "accidental" fleet, in that they had a number of trains incorporating this name but they made no effort to tie them in as a group for marketing purposes - it wouldn't have made sense to.
Name the 7 PRR trains of the Arrow "fleet".
From prior posts: ZephyrOverland:
"You may want to check that. According to several sources that I have, the original 7-car consists of the Humming Bird and Georgian were built by American Car and Foundary, not the St. Louis Car Company."
from passengerfan: "You are absolutely right my sincere apology I don't know what I was thinking. That makes it your question. Sorry Al in Chicago."
'Sawright, Al, I was swinging wild anyway. - a.s.
I have been thinking on this one for most of the day and can only come up with two PRR trains with Arrow in there names The Red Arrow and The Northern Arrow.
passengerfan I have been thinking on this one for most of the day and can only come up with two PRR trains with Arrow in there names The Red Arrow and The Northern Arrow. Al - in - Stockton
Thats two out of seven. Of the remaining 5, 3 of them were operated with other railroads.
Off hand, one of the three operated with other railroads was the Florida Arrow, which the L&N, the ACL, and the FEC operated.
Johnny
Deggesty Off hand, one of the three operated with other railroads was the Florida Arrow, which the L&N, the ACL, and the FEC operated.
Thats another one - 4 more to go.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/14322_4_001.jpg
http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T30/T3093/T3093-med.jpeg
wanswheel http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/14322_4_001.jpg http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T30/T3093/T3093-med.jpeg
Yep - another one.
It's the Chicago-New York Golden Arrow.
At this point, four Arrows have been discovered -
Florida Arrow
Golden Arrow
Red Arrow
Northern Arrow
3 more to go......
I tried to get this in before, but maybe it didn't take: N&W's Powhatan Arrow? - a.s.
I think I have figured out the last two The Boardwalk Arrow and the Detroit Arrow.
Al - in Stockton
al-in-chgoI tried to get this in before, but maybe it didn't take: N&W's Powhatan Arrow? - a.s.
Nope - remember, we are looking for Pennsylvania Railroad Arrows only.....
passengerfanI think I have figured out the last two The Boardwalk Arrow and the Detroit Arrow. Al - in Stockton
A qualified yes and yes....
For the Boardwalk Arrow - I assume you're referring to the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Philadelphia-Atlantic City train. I didn't include the Boardwalk Arrow in my list of seven Arrows since I was looking for trains that were directly operated by the PRR. The PRSL was a joint PRR-Reading operation BUT the train would have used PRR trackage leaving Philadelphia 30th St station to reach PRSL tracks. So I'm going to allow the Boardwalk Arrow to be part of the list of now eight trains.
Were down to two Arrows....
Red Arrow - Sept. 27, 1925
http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1925%20Jul%2004.wd.pdf
Golden Arrow - Sept. 29, 1929
http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1929%20Jul%2004.wd.pdf
Florida Arrow - Jan. 2, 1935
Detroit Arrow - Apr. 28, 1935
Northern Arrow - June 21, 1935
http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1935%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf
Chicago Arrow - Apr. 27, 1941
http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1941%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf
Advance Golden Arrow - Nov. 14, 1944
http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1944%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf
wanswheel Red Arrow, Sept. 27, 1925 http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1925%20Jul%2004.wd.pdf Golden Arrow, Sept. 29, 1929 http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1929%20Jul%2004.wd.pdf Florida Arrow, Jan. 2, 1935 Detroit Arrow, Apr. 28, 1935 Northern Arrow, June 21, 1935 http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1935%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf Chicago Arrow, Apr. 27, 1941 http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1941%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf Advance Golden Arrow, Nov. 14, 1944 http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1944%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf
Red Arrow, Sept. 27, 1925
Golden Arrow, Sept. 29, 1929
Florida Arrow, Jan. 2, 1935
Detroit Arrow, Apr. 28, 1935
Northern Arrow, June 21, 1935
Chicago Arrow, Apr. 27, 1941
Advance Golden Arrow, Nov. 14, 1944
From previous posts we have:
Detroit Arrow
Boardwalk Arrow
Newly discovered - Chicago Arrow - the westbound counterpart of the Detroit Arrow jointly operated with the Wabash.
As for the Advance Golden Arrow, I have seen the noted documentation previously. The only problem I have with this is in looking through the PRR section of several issues of the Official Guide for the late 1944 - early 1945 time period, the timetables and consist listings show this train as the Golden Arrow, not the Advance Golden Arrow. There are two sections of the Golden Arrow listed, but the regular section is number "79" and the advance section is numbered "Advance 79". I have yet to see printed confirmation, as in an actual timetable or advertisement, of the Advance Golden Arrow. I even did a Google newspaper archive search to see of there was any mention of the "Advance Golden Arrow". There are no mentions of the Advance Golden Arrow but there are some mentions of the Golden Arrow. As a result, I'm not counting this as one of the eight Arrows. If someone could show me otherwise I will be glad to make adjustments.
There is one Arrow left....
Jersey Arrow?
wanswheel Jersey Arrow?
Nope - Jersey Arrow is a commuter car type used by Penn Central and New Jersey Transit.
Only Arrows I can still think of are Broken Arrow (Hollywood Movie) and Pierce Arrow (Automobile) and I am quitwe sure the PRR would not have named a train after either of those.
passengerfan Only Arrows I can still think of are Broken Arrow (Hollywood Movie) and Pierce Arrow (Automobile) and I am quitwe sure the PRR would not have named a train after either of those. Al - in - Stockton
OK...twist my arm its time to finish this off. To review - PRR's Arrow "fleet" consists of:
Chicago Arrow
and the final Arrow......
Indiana Arrow - This train ran between Chicago and Richmond, Indiana with through cars going to Louisville.
Passengerfan - who will have the honor of asking the next question? You, Deggesty and Wanswheel all contributed answers.....
During the 1950s there were a number of roads that carried streamlinwed through sleeping cars name them the routes and the trains. I came up with close to twenty ffive.
passengerfan During the 1950s there were a number of roads that carried streamlinwed through sleeping cars name them the routes and the trains. I came up with close to twenty ffive. Al - in - Stockton
To clarify the question I don't want the names of the sleeping cars only the routes that through lightweight streamlined sleeping cars operated on, the trainnames that carried the sleeping cars and the RRs? It should not be as difficult as it seems.
Al,
That's a tall order but I'll try my hand at naming some of them.
PRR - Broadway Ltd. - NY-Chi; Spirit of St. Louis - NY-StL
PRR/L&N/ACL/FEC - South Wind - Chi-Tampa-Mia
NYC - 20th Century Ltd - NY-Chi
ACL - Champion - NY-Tampa-St.Pete-Mia
SAL - Silver Meteor - NY-Tampa-St.Pete-Mia; Silver Comet - NY-Birmingham
SAL/L&N - Gulf Wind - Jax-NO
Southern - Crescent - NY-NO; Tennessean - NY-Mem; Royal Palm - Cincy-Jax
C&EI/L&N - Hummingbird - Chi-NO
IC - Panama Ltd - Chi-NO
IC/CofG/ACL/FEC - City of Miami - Chi-Tampa-Mia
KCS - Southern Belle - KC-NO; Flying Crow - KC-Sport
MP - Colorado Eagle - StL-Denver
MP/T&P - Texas Eagle - StL-Hou-SanAntonio-El Paso
Frisco/MKT - Texas Spcl - StL-Dal
RI - Rocky Mtn Rocket - Chi-Den-Colo Spgs; Corn Belt Rocket - Chi-Omaha
RI/SP - Golden State Ltd - Chi-LA
RI/CB&Q - Zephyr Rocket - StL-MInn; Twin Star Rocket - Minn-Hou
CB&Q - Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr - Chi-Omaha; American Royal Zephyr - Chi-KC; Silver Streak Zephyr - KC- Omaha; Texas Zephyr - Den-Dal
CB&Q/Rio Grande/WP - California Zephyr - Chi-Oklnd
CB&Q/NP/SP&S - North Coast Ltd - Chi-Stle-Ptlnd
CB&Q/GN/SP&S - Empire Builder - Chi-Stle-Ptld; Mainstreeter - Chi-Stle
Milw - Olympian Hiawatha - Chi-Stle-Tacoma
CNW-UP - City of Los Angeles - Chi-LA; City of Portland -Chi-Ptld-Stle; City of Denver - Chi-Den; Challenger - Chi-LA
CNW/UP/SP - San Francisco Overland - Chi-SF
UP/SP - City of San Francisco - Chi-SF
Wab/UP/SP - City of St Louis - StL-LA-SF
AT&SF - Super Chief - Chi-LA; Chief - Chi-LA; San Francisco Chief - Chi-Oklnd; Texas Chief - Chi- Galv; Chicogan/Kansas Cityan - KC-Dal
SP - Sunset Ltd - LA-NO; Cascade - SF-Ptld-Stle; Lark - LA-SF
If I've counted right that's 48 trains streamlined trains that carried sleepers.
Mark
These trains were advertised as running through sleepers.
NYC 20th Century Limited - ATSF Chief
NYC Lake Shore Limited - CNW-UP-SP Overland Limited
NYC Commodore Vanderbilt - CNW-UP Transcontinental Limited
NYC Commodore Vanderbilt - CB&Q-D&RG-WP Exposition Flyer
NYC Advance Commodore Vanderbilt - CNW-UP Los Angeles Limited
NYC Iroquois - RI-SP Golden State Limited
NYC Chicagoan - CNW-UP City of Los Angeles
PRR Broadway Limited - ATSF Chief (and eastbound)
PRR Broadway Limited - RI-SP Golden State Limited (and eastbound)
PRR General - CNW-UP Los Angeles Limited
PRR Pennsylvania Limited - CNW-UP City of Los Angeles
PRR American - Frisco Meteor
PRR General - CN-UP Transcontinental Limited (and eastbound)
PRR Golden Arrow - RI-SP Golden State Limited
PRR Manhattan Limited - CNW-UP-SP Overland Limited
PRR The General - CB&Q-D&RG-WP Exposition Flyer (and eastbound)
SP-UP-CNW Overland Limited - PRR Pennsylvanian
B&O Capitol Limited - ATSF Chief
B&O Diplomat - Frisco Meteor
Frisco Meteor - B&O National Limited
B&O Diplomat - Frisco-M-K-T Texas Special
M-K-T- Frisco Texas Special - B&O National Limited
PRR American - Frisco-M-K-T Texas Special (through to Mexico City)
After spending nearly an hour composing a list of 48 trains and their routes I got the following message when I attempted to post a reply to your question:
You have posted to a forum that requires a moderator to approve posts before they are publicly available."
Needless to say I had not saved my reply and it now appears to be lost. Hopefully it will be seen by whoever is our moderator and approved so it appears sometime in the future.
In any event I forgot the following which need to be added to my list:
B&O - Capitol Ltd - Wash-Chi: National Ltd - Wash-StL
al-in-chgo wanswheel wrote: Name That Tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHe0YSciQao Why, isn't that George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue? You guys are great! I wish we had you on the History Quiz during this empty time. My question: what company built the Pioneer Zephyr, and in so doing made a name for itself?
wanswheel wrote: Name That Tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHe0YSciQao
Name That Tune
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHe0YSciQao
Why, isn't that George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue?
You guys are great! I wish we had you on the History Quiz during this empty time.
My question: what company built the Pioneer Zephyr, and in so doing made a name for itself?
Al, you're absolutely correct! But it seems quite out of place with this film clip. When I hear that magnificent piece of orchestration, the image of New York City comes immediately to mind. More specificly, Manhatten. Although Chicago does make a pretty good substitute.Lol.
Dick
Texas Chief
KCSfan passengerfan During the 1950s there were a number of roads that carried streamlinwed through sleeping cars name them the routes and the trains. I came up with close to twenty ffive. Al - in - Stockton Al, After spending nearly an hour composing a list of 48 trains and their routes I got the following message when I attempted to post a reply to your question: "Post Pending Moderation You have posted to a forum that requires a moderator to approve posts before they are publicly available." Needless to say I had not saved my reply and it now appears to be lost. Hopefully it will be seen by whoever is our moderator and approved so it appears sometime in the future. In any event I forgot the following which need to be added to my list: B&O - Capitol Ltd - Wash-Chi: National Ltd - Wash-StL Mark
I have recompiled as much of my "lost" list as I can remember and added a few more trains that I had overlooked earlier. I think the total is 55 trains. The cities listed are the principal sleeping car routes. Please make any corrections that you feel are appropriate.
Passengerfan,
I have recompiled my "lost" list of trains and added a few more that I had overlooked previously. I think the total is 56 trains. The cities listed are the principal sleeping car routes. Please make any corrections you deem necessary.
I have a few questions. The Zephyr Rocket was never assigned lightweight streamlined sleeping cars, The Silver Streak Zephyr was a day train never assigned lightweight streamlined sleeping cars. The Olympian Hiawatha never operated any through sleepers the entire consist operated Chicago - Seattle/Portland. Although the GN Empire Builder and NP North Coast Limited operated over the CB&Q between Chicago - St. Paul the CB&Q was a subsidiary of the two parent roads. The same on the west end with the SP&S who operated the Portland Sections of the premier trains of the NP and GN. The secondary Western Star of the GN operated summers with off line streamlined sleepers both from the east coast and west coast destined to Glacier National Park. These were travel groups who in some cases stayed aboard the sleeping cars for the Glacier Park visits, I can find no record of the Nebraska Zephyr carrying a through sleeping car to Great Falls and the sleeping cars to Great Falls and Butte that originated in Omaha and Lincoln were all heavyweights. The Twin Star Rocket sleeping cars were owned by the CRI&P and were not forwarded by any other road. The only sleeping cars on the Denver Zephyr that were forwarded by another road were the four daily cars to Colorado Springs that operated on the rear of the Royal Gorge both to and from Denver. The IC carried no off line sleeping cars in the Panama Limited except for one winter when leased NP dome sleeping cars operated and the same was true for the City of Miami for several winters. The KCS Southern Belle operated only there own sleeping cars in that particular train.
Its early for me late night last night and I need some coffee.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter