The Chessie was a proposed streamliner for a daylight Washington-Cincinnati run on C&O. It also included a Newport News-Charlottesville connecting train. Motive power would have been a steam-turbine-electric locomotive.
At the first indication of this proposal, B&O streamstyled some heavyweight equipment to be operated as the Cincinnatian on B&O's own Washington-Cincinnati route. The lack of patronage on B&O showed that there was no real market for Washington-Cincinnati day train.
Deggesty The first part should be easy; the second part may call for some thought. What was the Chessie? What was the B&O's role in the decision not to operate the train?
The first part should be easy; the second part may call for some thought.
What was the Chessie? What was the B&O's role in the decision not to operate the train?
Budd built 46 passenger cars for the stillborn Chessie that was scheduled to go into service in September 1948 but it came to be known as the train that never was. All of the cars were sold except for four which were operated by the C&O. The rest went to the ACL, Seaboard, D&RGW, C&EI and some even went to Argentina.
The B&O introduced the Cincinnatians January 13, 1947 between Baltimore and Cincinnati and when it was found it was not making money on that route it was switched to a Cincinnati - Detroit route. The C&O had already ordered the new equipment and rather than open a service that would have not been successful they sold the equipment.
Al - in - Stockton
CSSHEGEWISCH The Chessie was a proposed streamliner for a daylight Washington-Cincinnati run on C&O. It also included a Newport News-Charlottesville connecting train. Motive power would have been a steam-turbine-electric locomotive. At the first indication of this proposal, B&O streamstyled some heavyweight equipment to be operated as the Cincinnatian on B&O's own Washington-Cincinnati route. The lack of patronage on B&O showed that there was no real market for Washington-Cincinnati day train.
Actually, Phoebus was then the eastern terminus in the Hampton Roads area. By 1952, service was cut back to originate in Newport News instead of Phoebus. I rather doubt that many people rode east of the transfer point to/from Norfolk. There was also a plan to have a connecting train for Louisville, with the transfer being made in Ashland.
Neither one of you mentioned the fish tanks in the lounge cars. This was an unsuccessful idea, for the fish died. Seasick, perhaps?
So, Paul give us a question, please.
Johnny
Amtrak currently provides management services for several commuter operations. What was the only commuter operation to be directly operated under the Amtrak banner with Amtrak equipment?
CSSHEGEWISCH Amtrak currently provides management services for several commuter operations. What was the only commuter operation to be directly operated under the Amtrak banner with Amtrak equipment?
Only service I can think of is the "Valpo Locals," which ran CUS to Valparaiso and return. They were gallery-style bilevel cars, but operated by Amtrak, and I think the bi-levs even belonged to Amtrak (Would they have been exx-PRR? Not sure).
Amtrak, of course, is supposed to be all about intercity, not commuter. IIRC Congress cut their budget in the Eighties and it they became non-trains and a non-issue.
History, but not 50 year old history. - a.s.
Chicago to Valparaiso
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167273 PRR
http://www.bcoolidge.com/PC%20Pix/E-Units-and-P70-Coaches-Valparaiso-Train_4_72.jpg
http://www.railpixs.com/conrail/Ch-Valpo_consist_atChicago_Dec76a.jpg
Al-in-Chicago is the winner. The bi-levels were the former C&NW 700-series that operated on the Peninsula 400 and Flambeau 400.
Your question, Al.
CSSHEGEWISCH Al-in-Chicago is the winner. The bi-levels were the former C&NW 700-series that operated on the Peninsula 400 and Flambeau 400. Your question, Al.
Okay, um....what well-known passenger train of the past featured as its most expensive dining-car item the "King's Dinner"; and what souvenir was given to those who ordered and ate the whole thing?
Should be relatively easy for this crowd! - a.s.
al-in-chgo Okay, um....what well-known passenger train of the past featured as its most expensive dining-car item the "King's Dinner"; and what souvenir was given to those who ordered and ate the whole thing? Should be relatively easy for this crowd! - a.s.
passengerfan al-in-chgo Okay, um....what well-known passenger train of the past featured as its most expensive dining-car item the "King's Dinner"; and what souvenir was given to those who ordered and ate the whole thing? Should be relatively easy for this crowd! - a.s. Gee Al I think the "Kings Dinner" was featured on the Panama Limited and the gift you got me on was it Alka Seltzer. I have always considered myself a pretty good eater and hate to waste food but if I had eaten that dinner Alka Seltzer would have followed dessert. Al - in - Stockton
West Coast Al, you are on board with the name of the train. But the "souvenir" -- more of a trinket, really -- was a kind of symbol of achievement (hint).
al-in-chgo But the "souvenir" -- more of a trinket, really -- was a kind of symbol of achievement (hint).
Perfect! IIRC it was shaped like a "Crown Royal" crown, not the Hallmark coronet.
You get the next question - al s.
The railroad that eventually became the Santa Fe that we knew from the 1960s through 1995 was the result of many mergers acquisitions and other subsidiaries. All but three of these were included and/or excluded from the final system more than 50 years ago.
The question is to name as many of the predecessors of the Santa Fe as possible. These names can be those of subsidiaries, purchases, affiliates, mergers, and ownerships. Bonus points for including the significant date(s) for the various railroads. At least try to get a few from your brain before going "a searching" the resources.
I'll start by saying that while researching for this question I was surprised that the Gulf Colorado & Santa Fe was not fully merged into the Santa Fe until August 1, 1965! (not more than 50 years ago). That means even though the Santa Fe gained control in 1886 it was, at least on paper, still a separate railroad for 79 more years. GC&SF was originally founded in 1873 and was at that time no relation to the Atchison road.
I'll start the ball rolling with the obvious candidates:
Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe
Panhandle & Santa Fe
Both existed on paper for as long as they did because of the longstanding requirement that railroads which operated in Texas had to be incorporated in Texas.
This should keep the ball rolling with the following AT&SF subsidiaries.
Arizona & Utah Railway
Atlantic & Pacific Railroad
California Arizona & Eastern
California & Southern
New Mexicao & Arizona Railroad
New Mexico & Southern Pacific Railroad
Santa Fe & Grand Canyon Railroad
Santa Fe Pacific
Santa Fe Prescott & Phoenix
Sonora Railway
Verde Valley Railway
Western Arizona Railway
Thats all I came up with.
Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe - Yes, talked about above.Panhandle & Santa Fe - Yes, March 1, 1899
user="passengerfan"
Arizona & Utah Railway - Yes, unknown dates Atlantic & Pacific Railroad - The BIG one 50% of stock January 31, 1880California Arizona & EasternCalifornia & Southern - Yes, October 16, 1880New Mexicao & Arizona Railroad - Yes, October 15, 1882New Mexico & Southern Pacific Railroad - Yes, April 15, 1880Santa Fe & Grand Canyon Railroad - Yes, August 15, 1901Santa Fe Pacific - Yes don't have a date - successor to the Atlantic & PacificSanta Fe Prescott & Phoenix - Yes, March 14, 1895Sonora Railway - Yes, October 14, 1880Verde Valley Railway - Yes, chartered as non-operating subsidiary 1911, deeded December 31, 1942. Western Arizona Railway - Yes, subsidiary, 1906
I don't have the CA&E...
This is about 1/3 of them.
Wichita Southwestern, 1872
Kansas City, Topeka & Western, 1875
Kansas City, Lawrence & Southern Kansas, 1880
Chicago, Santa Fe & California, 1886
Chicago & St. Louis, 1886
Los Angeles & San Gabriel Valley, 1887
St. Louis, Kansas City & Colorado, 1887
St. Louis County Railroad, 1887
Denver Circle Railroad,1888
Eastern Oklahoma, 1899
Denver, Enid & Gulf, 1907
Colorado Midland, 1890
San Francisco & San Joaquin Valley, 1898
Pecos Valley & Northeastern, 1901
Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, 1901
Arizona & California Railway, early 1900s
Central California Traction, with SP and WP, 1928
Kansas City, Mexico & Orient, 1928
Elkhart & Santa Fe, 1930s
Fort Worth & Rio Grande, 1937
user="wanswheel" Wichita Southwestern, 1872 Yes, affiliate from Newton to Wichita and then on to PrattKansas City, Topeka & Western, 1875 Yes, Leased connections east.Kansas City, Lawrence & Southern Kansas, 1880 Yes, but what 3 railroads merged to form this one?Chicago, Santa Fe & California, 1886 Yes, December 3Chicago & St. Louis, 1886 Yes, aquired by the Chicago Santa Fe & California. Most confusing name because of the "New York Chicago & St. Louis" and the "Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis."Los Angeles & San Gabriel Valley, 1887 Yes, September 11St. Louis, Kansas City & Colorado, 1887 Santa Fe purchased Dec 16, 1899. Turned over the Frisco. Was operated by the Frisco, until the SF SLSF receivership. Ended up going to the Rock Island. I believe it was eventually known as the "St. Louis Branch" of the RI.St. Louis County Railroad, 1887 Santa Fe purchased in Feb 16, 1899 and changed the name to St. Louis Kansas City & Colorado in December 16, 1899.Denver Circle Railroad,1888 Yes, I would have said 1887Eastern Oklahoma, 1899 Yes, but I question the dateDenver, Enid & Gulf, 1907 Yes, came through the Eastern Oklahoma (above)Colorado Midland, 1890 Yes, which class 1 railroad did not own the Midland at one point or another?San Francisco & San Joaquin Valley, 1898 Yes, July 22Pecos Valley & Northeastern, 1901 YesSanta Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, 1901 - already listedArizona & California Railway, early 1900s - Yes July 10, 1910Central California Traction, with SP and WP, 1928 - hmmm I don't have this one.Kansas City, Mexico & Orient, 1928 - Yes October 19Elkhart & Santa Fe, 1930s - Yes, November 15, 1931Fort Worth & Rio Grande, 1937 - Yes March I have about 15 more in my list. There are a couple of significant ones missing - maybe they are too obvious because after they were owned they were split back out. Then there is the one that had an engineering marvel. The others are pretty obscure. Then another significant one shared with another major railroad.
Wichita Southwestern, 1872 Yes, affiliate from Newton to Wichita and then on to PrattKansas City, Topeka & Western, 1875 Yes, Leased connections east.Kansas City, Lawrence & Southern Kansas, 1880 Yes, but what 3 railroads merged to form this one?Chicago, Santa Fe & California, 1886 Yes, December 3Chicago & St. Louis, 1886 Yes, aquired by the Chicago Santa Fe & California. Most confusing name because of the "New York Chicago & St. Louis" and the "Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis."Los Angeles & San Gabriel Valley, 1887 Yes, September 11St. Louis, Kansas City & Colorado, 1887 Santa Fe purchased Dec 16, 1899. Turned over the Frisco. Was operated by the Frisco, until the SF SLSF receivership. Ended up going to the Rock Island. I believe it was eventually known as the "St. Louis Branch" of the RI.St. Louis County Railroad, 1887 Santa Fe purchased in Feb 16, 1899 and changed the name to St. Louis Kansas City & Colorado in December 16, 1899.Denver Circle Railroad,1888 Yes, I would have said 1887Eastern Oklahoma, 1899 Yes, but I question the dateDenver, Enid & Gulf, 1907 Yes, came through the Eastern Oklahoma (above)Colorado Midland, 1890 Yes, which class 1 railroad did not own the Midland at one point or another?San Francisco & San Joaquin Valley, 1898 Yes, July 22Pecos Valley & Northeastern, 1901 YesSanta Fe, Prescott & Phoenix, 1901 - already listedArizona & California Railway, early 1900s - Yes July 10, 1910Central California Traction, with SP and WP, 1928 - hmmm I don't have this one.Kansas City, Mexico & Orient, 1928 - Yes October 19Elkhart & Santa Fe, 1930s - Yes, November 15, 1931Fort Worth & Rio Grande, 1937 - Yes March
I have about 15 more in my list. There are a couple of significant ones missing - maybe they are too obvious because after they were owned they were split back out. Then there is the one that had an engineering marvel. The others are pretty obscure. Then another significant one shared with another major railroad.
Pueblo & Arkansas Valley, 1875
Denver & Rio Grande, 1878
Oklahoma Central, 1900s (EO)
Texas, Louisiana & Eastern, 1900s
Gulf, Beaumont & Kansas City, 1900s
Eel River & Eureka, 1900s
California & Northern, 1900s
California & Nevada, 1904
Northwestern Pacific, with SP, 1907
Illinois Northern, 51% with CB&Q, NYC & PRR, 1947
Toledo, Peoria & Western, with PRR, 1957
Oklahoma City-Ada-Otoka, 1962
Re: Kansas City, Lawrence & Southern Kansas.
Leavenworth, Lawrence & Galveston?
Ottawa & Burlington?
Kansas City & Olathe?
Re: St.Lou, KC & Colorado. Book says bought 1887, sold 1899.
Re: Eastern Oklahoma. Book says chartered July 24, 1899.
wanswheel"
Pueblo & Arkansas Valley, 1875 <<-- This is the one I was looking for. This is the railroad that built the famous hanging bridge over the Arkansas that the D&RGW is often credited with.Denver & Rio Grande, 1878 <<-- Yes Another one of the Big Ones I was looking for.Northwestern Pacific, with SP, 1907 <<-- This is the joint owned one I was looking for.
>> What railroads comprised the Kansas City, Lawrence & Southern Kansas.
Leavenworth, Lawrence & Galveston?Ottawa & Burlington?Kansas City & Olathe?
This is basically correct. However re-reading that section I see I wasn't correct. The LL&G became the KCL&SK. The other two combined with it to form the "Southern Kansas".
Re: St.Lou, KC & Colorado. Book says bought 1887, sold 1899.Yes, Confusing and convoluted. I am not certain any of the books are correct. I believe it was sold to the Santa Fe 1899. One reference agrees - http://www.atsfry.com/easternarchive/meades/stlouisk.htm It seems like somewhere sometime I saw the actual legal document making this transaction. However, it was also confusing and right now I am unable to relocate it.
Re: Eastern Oklahoma. Book says chartered July 24, 1899.Yes, but was it the Santa Fe chartering it as a subsidiary or affiliate? I think it was totally independent for a while. It did own the Guthrie, Crescent and Enid Railway before the Santa Fe got it.
The other BIG one I was looking for was FRISCO! When I was growing up in Kansas I wondered why the Frisco had so much parallel track with the Santa Fe.
Wanswheel definitely got the largest number - so his turn for the next question.
Two paragraphs from History of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway
"When Gould disrupted Colorado traffic arrangements for the Atchison, Strong moved to destroy Gould's "monopoly" in St. Louis. On January 26, 1887, The New York Times announced the purchase by the Atchison of the St. Louis, Kansas City and Colorado Railroad, a fifty-mile line from St. Louis to Union, Missouri. Further, reported The Times, the Atchison planned to extend the StLKC&C from Union to the new Kansas City-Chicago "airline," giving the ATSF entrance into St. Louis; the residents of St. Louis were "tickled." Gould then discovered in April that Robinson's surveyors were in the field between Pekin and St. Louis with unannounced plans to build to St. Louis from Chicago. Strong gave an additional indication that the Atchison meant business when he bought the St. Louis County Railroad that summer. The St. Louis County operated a five-mile long switching and terminal line in the city. Gould became convinced that Strong would counter every new piece of construction, and an unwritten truce soon prevailed; both men brought their construction programs to a halt. The Atchison's orphan line in St. Louis remained isolated until it was sold in December 1899. Years later the Santa Fe would again seek entrance into St. Louis; but in the late 1880s the battle shifted from construction to the rate structure."
"In 1899 the Santa Fe operated two lines through the "Twin Territories": the main line from Arkansas City, Kansas south through Guthrie and Purcell to Gainsville, Texas; and the panhandle route across the northwestern corner of Oklahoma Territory. Ripley decided that the greatest immediate need was to tap the farm areas on either side of the main line. He chartered the Eastern Oklahoma Railway on July 24, 1899, with $2.2 million in capital; and for the next five years this subsidiary constructed branches of great importance. A new line began at Newkirk in Oklahoma Territory and went east and then south paralleling the main line, which was about forty to fifty miles to the west, passing through Shawnee before regaining the main at Pauls Valley. The new line was designed to carry heavy freight traffic, and Dun ordered culverts to be constructed of stone and masonry with a maximum grade of .6 percent. The Eastern Oklahoma also built a line from the territorial capital at Guthrie east to Stillwater. In 1904 the Eastern Oklahoma bought a line from Pauls Valley west to Maysville and Lindsey, and later acquired the Oklahoma Central, which operated 128 miles of road west from the coal center of Lehigh through Ada to Purcell and Chicasha. Another purchase gave the Atchison a valuable feeder west of the main line and north into Kansas; the Eastern Oklahoma bought the Denver, Enid and Gulf Railroad in 1907, and thus acquired 161 miles of track from Guthrie through Enid to Kiowa in southwestern Kansas. When President Theodore Roosevelt signed the act merging the "Twin Territorries" into the state of Oklahoma in 1907, the Santa Fe had a firm hold on rail traffic through the middle third of the new state."
[Copyright 1974 Keith L. Bryant, Jr.]
What city was the first west of the Mississippi to have train service to the east? Trains pulled by locomotives on a bridge across the river.
Bonus question: What railroad + classic train contains a word that is a genre of music, and repeats it twice as a syllable? Hint: It goes (went) through the city in the unbonus question.
Mike
wanswheelWhat city was the first west of the Mississippi to have train service to the east? Trains pulled by locomotives on a bridge across the river. Bonus question: What railroad + classic train contains a word that is a genre of music, and repeats it twice as a syllable? Hint: It goes (went) through the city in the unbonus question. Mike
Davenport, IA - in 1856
Rock Island - Rocky Mountain Rocket
wanswheel What city was the first west of the Mississippi to have train service to the east? Trains pulled by locomotives on a bridge across the river. Bonus question: What railroad + classic train contains a word that is a genre of music, and repeats it twice as a syllable? Hint: It goes (went) through the city in the unbonus question. Mike
Davenport, IA with the completion of the CRI&P bridge over the Mississippi from Rock Island, IL.
Mark
Some more pics including Milw 261 and the Hiawatha observation car.
http://joelemay.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=33598
ZephyrOverland posted first and of course the Rocky Mountain Rocket.
What passenger train was named after a train station?
ZephyrOverland What passenger train was named after a train station?
DeggestyZephyrOverland What passenger train was named after a train station? Was this an NYC train that was named for Grand Central Terminal? I have a vague, vague memory of such, but cannot remember an exact name. Johnny
That's right - the train was called the Grand Central and ran around 1940. Your turn to ask a question.
Here's one that may not be so easy. Back in 1893, the eastern and southern railroads had many different sleeper lines to Chicago for people who wanted to go to the World's Fair that was held there that year. One line went from Mobile to Chicago, and the passengers could get off at the World's Fair grounds or at the station "directly in front of the Auditorium, Victoria, Richelieu and Leland hotels...." if they wanted to. This line did not go through Birmingham or Atlanta or through western Tennessee. It could still have been used even in the sixties, but it is now broken. What roads handled the car, and what were the junctions? You can give the names of the roads as they were in the sixties, or as they were in 1893.
There was a Chicago-Mobile sleeper that operated on the Georgian-Humming Bird into the 1960's on the following route: Chicago-C&EI-Evansville-L&N-Mobile.
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