Here's another utterly idiotic idea.
Stupid is as stupid does
BaltACD Euclid Some news has come to light which boggles my mind. We have long been hearing about the possibility of the virus originating from the P4 biological lab in Wuhan. But the original explanation was that it originated from bats sold at the wet market. Now that origin seems to be dismissed because it is said that the wet market has never sold bats, and the overall conclusion now is that the wet market is not the source of the virus. So the focus is now on the lab as being the source of the virus. All along, the lab has been referred to in oblique and faraway terms as though we don’t know much about it. But now comes the story that the U.S. was there funding the lab to some extent and working in it with the Chinese on coronavirus from bats. We were there along with an international consortium of scientists, and were experimenting with coronavirus from bats. This astounding news is at least a couple weeks old and probably was available right from the start. Yet I have not heard a peep about it until yesterday. This news is stunning and it raises a lot questions since we must know a lot about that lab and the chances of the virus originating there. Since we are getting into 'science fiction' or 'fictional science' why not throw Fort Detrick and their research into chemical and biological warfare into the mix. I wouldn't discount the Russian chemical and biological warfare units either.
Euclid Some news has come to light which boggles my mind. We have long been hearing about the possibility of the virus originating from the P4 biological lab in Wuhan. But the original explanation was that it originated from bats sold at the wet market. Now that origin seems to be dismissed because it is said that the wet market has never sold bats, and the overall conclusion now is that the wet market is not the source of the virus. So the focus is now on the lab as being the source of the virus. All along, the lab has been referred to in oblique and faraway terms as though we don’t know much about it. But now comes the story that the U.S. was there funding the lab to some extent and working in it with the Chinese on coronavirus from bats. We were there along with an international consortium of scientists, and were experimenting with coronavirus from bats. This astounding news is at least a couple weeks old and probably was available right from the start. Yet I have not heard a peep about it until yesterday. This news is stunning and it raises a lot questions since we must know a lot about that lab and the chances of the virus originating there.
All along, the lab has been referred to in oblique and faraway terms as though we don’t know much about it. But now comes the story that the U.S. was there funding the lab to some extent and working in it with the Chinese on coronavirus from bats. We were there along with an international consortium of scientists, and were experimenting with coronavirus from bats.
This astounding news is at least a couple weeks old and probably was available right from the start. Yet I have not heard a peep about it until yesterday. This news is stunning and it raises a lot questions since we must know a lot about that lab and the chances of the virus originating there.
Since we are getting into 'science fiction' or 'fictional science' why not throw Fort Detrick and their research into chemical and biological warfare into the mix. I wouldn't discount the Russian chemical and biological warfare units either.
There is nothing science fiction about if you care to read the news. We help fund that P4 Lab in Wuhan. Trump made the news a couple days ago by pulling our funding from the lab. Just because you have not heard about it does not mean it is just a conspriacy theory.
Just because Trump and Faux News clowns like Hannity have been pushing this story, along with hydroxychlroquine, doesn't make it factual.
Factions? You mean scientists Vs hucksters?
From Jewishwebsite.com:
Israel’s coronavirus death toll currently stands at 191, the country’s Health Ministry reported on Thursday, with 14,592 confirmed cases of infection since the start of the pandemic.
There are currently 136 COVID-19 patients in critical condition (a three-person drop since Wednesday), of which 107 on ventilators (compared to 113 on Wednesday), according to the ministry. At least 112 patients are in moderate condition, while 8,819 have mild symptoms.
As of Thursday morning, 5,334 Israelis have recovered from the virus, with the recovery rate having exceeded the infection rate for the eighth day in a row.
charlie hebdoHere's another utterly idiotic idea. Stupid is as stupid does
It does have to be said that there is something of a parallel in some of the hematoporphyrin approaches for, say, hemangioma treatment; if you've ever held your thumb over a flashlight you'll be surprised at how well some wavelengths penetrate tissue...
Of course our First Virologist/Epidemiologist had to brainstorm about mass quantities of UV ... something that even a little reflection for someone of his complexion would have shown up as more a burning question than a technical answer...
Did he actually progress to injections of chemical disinfectant? I didn't have the heart to read past the 'do you want to know more' fadeout.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid Some news has come to light which boggles my mind. We have long been hearing about the possibility of the virus originating from the P4 biological lab in Wuhan. But the original explanation was that it originated from bats sold at the wet market. Now that origin seems to be dismissed because it is said that the wet market has never sold bats, and the overall conclusion now is that the wet market is not the source of the virus. So the focus is now on the lab as being the source of the virus. All along, the lab has been referred to in oblique and faraway terms as though we don’t know much about it. But now comes the story that the U.S. was there funding the lab to some extent and working in it with the Chinese on coronavirus from bats. We were there along with an international consortium of scientists, and were experimenting with coronavirus from bats. This astounding news is at least a couple weeks old and probably was available right from the start. Yet I have not heard a peep about it until yesterday. This news is stunning and it raises a lot questions since we must know a lot about that lab and the chances of the virus originating there. Since we are getting into 'science fiction' or 'fictional science' why not throw Fort Detrick and their research into chemical and biological warfare into the mix. I wouldn't discount the Russian chemical and biological warfare units either. There is nothing science fiction about if you care to read the news. We help fund that P4 Lab in Wuhan. Trump made the news a couple days ago by pulling our funding from the lab. Just because you have not heard about it does not mean it is just a conspriacy theory.
I get my conspiracy theories the same place the President does - the flatulance that exits my body. Both theories have the same foundation in facts.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
So Balt, are you a stable genius too? Do you like covfefe on your hamburders?
Here we aare just about 120 miles from the worse infection rate per population in the USA. What happens in Albany ga in the next three weeks is going to be very interesting. If it is bad we know that our governor has just commited political suicide. As well as any of his supporters ?
EDIT" We need to hope that this covid-19 event will wake up the political establishment to the need to rebuild the CDC and FDA. Also the restocking and expansion of the needed medical equipment including PSE . That will only partially help our medical personel to meet the possible effects of a bio weapon attack on the world.
What is changing the spread of the infection metric the most is the finding of earlier victims than the original patient 1 in Washington state. Probably will require some exumations
54light15So Balt, are you a stable genius too? Do you like covfefe on your hamburders?
I don't claim to be a genius, stable or otherwise. Like bacon, lettuce, tomato & grilled onions on my 5 Guys burgers and prefer ice tea as my drink of preference.
I just pull s*** out my ass!
blue streak 1 Here we aare just about 120 miles from the worse infection rate per population in the USA. What happens in Albany ga in the next three weeks is going to be very interesting. If it is bad we know that our governor has just commited political suicide. As well as any of his supporters ? EDIT" We need to hope that this covid-19 event will wake up the political establishment to the need to rebuild the CDC and FDA. Also the restocking and expansion of the needed medical equipment including PSE . That will only partially help our medical personel to meet the possible effects of a bio weapon attack on the world. What is changing the spread of the infection metric the most is the finding of earlier victims than the original patient 1 in Washington state. Probably will require some exumations
+1. Well said! My memory of Albany is from 35 years ago. Any clue as to why such a high infection rate?
Perhaps inject some Lysol, "what do you have to lose"?
charlie hebdo Here's another utterly idiotic idea. Stupid is as stupid does
Euclid There are probably 100,000 experts right now looking at all ideas about going directly into the lungs and killing the virus with either chemicals or U.V. light.
Personally, I think this avenue holds great promise.
Not self administered doses of household cleaners, but rather something administered in a controlled, supervised environment to make the host's body inhospitable to the proliferation of the virus.
Oddly enough I am aware of a considerable body of anecdotal evidence suggesting that massive IV doses of methamphetamine over a couple days rids the body of even the nastiest flu.
Whether the authorities would be willing to "turn on" broad swaths of the population for the sake of a cure remains doubtful. But absent any more promising opportunities I'd hope they might at least give it consideration.
What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger, etc.
Convicted OnePersonally, I think this avenue holds great promise. Not self administered doses of household cleaners, but rather something administered in a controlled, supervised environment to make the host's body inhospitable to the proliferation of the virus.
The first is that agents administered in the actual bronchial tract are 'historically' things to affect tissues there (as in bronchodilators or other asthma meds) or preferentially get into circulation through gas exchange in the alveolae (as nicotine is in smoking). I suspect if you snaked a UV source down there to zap the virus particles that were in process of confirming to ACE2, you'd cause all sorts of other damage to tissues, stimulation of nerve endings, etc. for the 'value received' of viral inactivation ... then have to do it all over again at intervals to clean out subsequent contamination.
Likewise, chemicals that can actually penetrate the envelope and capsid to denature the viral genome directly are likely to be harsh on the tissues in the respiratory tract, or toxic to cellular activity, or both. Many's the attractive parasite treatment that founders on this problem...
Note that a great many of the 'inhibitors' with promise act specifically on what the viral genome dies after infection -- GS441524 or T-705 for example impede specific RNA polymerase and 3CLpro inhibitors preventcleaving of the synthesized RNA into active units. Of course if part of "COVID-19" involves damage via the ACE2 site, either by binding irreversibly to it or triggering something by doing so, you either need to administer something that preferentially binds to the site 'first' (which can screw up part of the RAAS system that the ACE2 is part of) or that selectively degrades the viral attachment (which is what the hydroxychloroquine was supposed to be helping to do) but this is not stuff you want to mess around with as an exogenous treatment. There was some thinking that artificially augmenting expression of ACE2 on elks was a Good Thing for people with conditions like congestive heart failure... we should probably be grateful THAT didn't get through clinical trials and done to sufferers,as they would be at leveraged risk both for infection and developing any complications tied to ACE2...
You won't see that research, of course, because amphetamines are officially demonized now and, as with Neurosine, can't have any legitimate medical effects...
A problem with lots of 'heroic' or special treatment is that the effects of the cure can be worse than the disease. Many chemotherapeutic cocktails weren't worth the suffering they put patients through for the little effect in vivo they turned out to have. IMHO ventilating patients with ARDS is in this category for over 4 if every 5 patients.
Euclid charlie hebdo Here's another utterly idiotic idea. Stupid is as stupid does How do you know it is idiotic? What he actually said is being intentionally distorted by NBC. Big surprise. What was the reaction we were suppose to see in Dr. Birx? There are probably 100,000 experts right now looking at all ideas about going directly into the lungs and killing the virus with either chemicals or U.V. light.
How do you know it is idiotic? What he actually said is being intentionally distorted by NBC. Big surprise. What was the reaction we were suppose to see in Dr. Birx? There are probably 100,000 experts right now looking at all ideas about going directly into the lungs and killing the virus with either chemicals or U.V. light.
What he actually said below. If you don't think this is idiotic and irresponsible as POTUS, then I encourage you to try it at home on yourself.
Donald Trump, Coronavirus Press Conference, 4/23/2020 at 29:46 minutes: "A question that probably some of you are thinking of [he was looking far to his right, at Dr. Birx or other professionals] if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right? And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful. Steve, please."
OvermodA problem with lots of 'heroic' or special treatment is that the effects of the cure can be worse than the disease
True......but if they are going to die anyway, they might as well go with a smile on their face.
The biggest hurdle I would anticipate would be those at biggest risk from the virus (therefore an "extreme" cure might be indicated) are those over 60 yrs of age. I doubt their hearts could handle the ride.
Mind you, I wasn't talking about the amphetamines in saying 'heroic'. I consider reasonable doses of l-amphetamine to be wonder drugs.
On the other hand, large bolus doses of meth are something of a waste. Probably better metabolic 'excitation' for flu recovery would be relatively low-level but sustained release for the course of 4-5 days -- of course you'd need a Russian sleep-inducer plate or the equivalent to keep them from too much 'being wired' ...
At least some of the cardiac stuff depends on the chemistry you pick... and, again, not overdoing the dose at any point. Could be a useful application for the time-release that put Adderall back in patent protection with XR...
Methamphetamine was once the medicine of choice in the University of Utah studies of treatment of adult ADD. I recall hearing its proponent (Paul Wender?) speak at Harvard in the late 90s.
As to injecting bleach, Trump got the idea from a "pal"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR2j4RJtAbTUddA1XB4uhWG3AcUoDJikE5lYbloiwLKvIPQJDNRdV_ValXc
charlie hebdoMethamphetamine was once the medicine of choice in the University of Utah studies of treatment of adult ADD. I recall hearing its proponent speak at Harvard in the late 90s. As to injecting bleach, Trump got the idea from a "pal" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR2j4RJtAbTUddA1XB4uhWG3AcUoDJikE5lYbloiwLKvIPQJDNRdV_ValXc
charlie hebdoAs to injecting bleach, Trump got the idea from a "pal" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR2j4RJtAbTUddA1XB4uhWG3AcUoDJikE5lYbloiwLKvIPQJDNRdV_ValXc
Trust the Guardian to miss the real story while trying to make Trump look stupider.
Remember that in the previous link Trump left the 'disinfectant' carefully unspecified? Well, it seems the material ... carefully characterized as 'industrial bleach' by the Brits ... is our old friend from the anthrax-letter days.
Chlorine bleach, the 'household' stuff, is some form of hypochlorite.
The 'disinfectant' in question turns out to be chlorine dioxide.
You guessed right, kid; let's see what happens when we fool a halogen into thinking it's valence 4+ electropositive and ... unleash it where did you say? Sorry, when I stop screaming I might hear you better.
As John Clark put it about a somewhat less electropositive chlorine compound: "For situations of this kind, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes".
Or, if you have spores of something resistant to most known disinfecting agents, and you can't immerse the thing you need cleaned in, oh, say, basic piranha, ClO2 will git 'r dun nicely.
Admittedly, it's not quite in Florox country. But you could see it from there...
At least Trump was probably right in thinking it would introduce a certain amount of 'light' into 'the inside of the patient (although perhaps for not very long and not at disinfectant UV wavelength)
I'm waiting for Trump to start pitching actual snake oil. Just a penny ante huckster.
"Does a tremendous number on the lungs." Doesn't he mean a bigly number? With excellent brains like his you would think he would use proper Trumpanese.
charlie hebdo I'm waiting for Trump to start pitching actual snake oil.
I'm waiting for Trump to start pitching actual snake oil.
As opposed to adding a half cup of chlorine bleach to bathwater?
While he does have a well deserved reputation for engaging mouth before getting brain in gear, he does have a fair grasp on logistics.
OvermodTrust the Guardian to miss the real story while trying to make Trump look stupider.
That is not possible.
Erik_MagAs opposed to adding a half cup of chlorine bleach to bathwater?
It does have to be said that using bleach in the bathwater has some sanitizing value. Of course it displays much the same knowledge of chemistry as that Romany girl who whitened her teeth with Clorox because 'it's bleach' and 3%H2O2 was not. I continue to see relatively witless advice even from 'experts' who have not made the very fundamental distinction between 'disinfecting' something via antibiotics and 'sanitizing' (or other appropriate term of art) against viruses. (This turns up wholesale with the mask issue as well, when you look for instance at effective filtration required for viral particles or droplets containing them.)
I'm not sure how much of the actual chlorine-dioxide "bleach" scam is actually Trump believing that the stuff can be topically employed somehow, or how much he trusted that guy Grenon in the Guardian story as an 'expert' more reliable than the wibbly collection of experts he seems to have employed so far. This would be an opportunity to do some actual investigative journalism, but that's more work than it appears the newsworkers involved care to do during lockdown.
Well of course we know that the response to this virus is more than just fighting it. It also includes hope that the economy will be in dire condition at the time of the election. This is based on the widely recognized premise that presidents sink or swim on the condition of the economy. Obviously, this ulterior motive is distorting all the safety advice and procedures that are being thrust upon us.
But I would not count on an executive sinking in this case because the economy is not merely headed for trouble due to economic decisions and policies. Instead, this is a national emergency with the bad economy just being part of the damage. In times like these, people tend to rally around their president for leadership. They are very likely to view the president as the one guy that can fix the problem economy rather than the guy who caused the problem.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/most-important-number-trumps-re-election-chances/609376/
From the link:
“Another complicating factor: What the country faces is not just a recession, but a natural disaster and a public-health cataclysm and a government-mobilizing battle, together in extremis. Voters tend to punish presidents for recessions. But they tend to reward them for their leadership during wars and other dangerous calamities: Horrors such as Pearl Harbor and 9/11 caused spikes in presidents’ approval ratings, and in some cases smoothed their way to electoral victory. This is known as the “rally ’round the flag” effect, and Trump seems to be benefiting from it: His approval rating has tracked up to 49 percent, the highest of his presidency.”
I no longer think particularly hard about the 'conspiracy' aspect that solutions to the various virus problems are being artificially suppressed until 'after the election'. When the official vaccine rollout was extended past 2 years, the most significant circumstantial 'driver' for such a belief ceased to have much value.
I think a large part of the ongoing efforts to belittle Trump's 'scientific' or 'medical' knowledge are still related to election-related matters, and it remains to be seen if the 'rally-round-the-President-as-he-works-through-this' approach is stronger than the sort of 'Cheeto-Hazelwood's-at-the-wheel' defectively-coordinated efforts that get shoveled out ... some objectively justified, some less so.
It would, as before, be delightful if Trump's style included less of the crazy-like-a-fox intentional-misdirection and tweeting-himself-in-the-foot stuff. It would be delightful if he put together a correct expert advisory board -- which could inherently compensate for the Dunning-Kruger-in-specialists effects that have so often and so dramatically screwed up practical response to the COVID-19 crisis in so many senses. As I suspect little of that is likely to 'resolve itself' in ways that actually facilitate either response to the medical concerns or a prompt and effective economic recovery ... we either have to concentrate on what actually works, or on figuring out how to assess where the best (ideally Pareto-optimal) tradeoffs or compromises are going to be made. (And then figure out, which is much harder, how to get them implemented, perhaps using techniques from 'child psychology'...)
(I might add that, in my opinion, if the economy is not either substantially 'on predictable road to recovery' or clearly established to be 'resolvable' long before the election ... perhaps long before the organized campaign action and debates and negative spin ads ramp up ... I think it will be unrecoverable 'as it was', and possibly only recoverable through a singularity. I fear that won't be good with any putative executive leadership up to that point.)
[quote user="Overmod"]I think a large part of the ongoing efforts to belittle Trump's 'scientific' or 'medical' knowledge are still related to election-related matters, and it remains to be seen if the 'rally-round-the-President-as-he-works-through-this' approach is stronger than the sort of 'Cheeto-Hazelwood's-at-the-wheel' defectively-coordinated efforts that get shoveled out ... some objectively justified, some less so.[/quote]
ongoing efforts to belittle Trump's 'scientific' or 'medical' knowledge
Donald Trump LIES. Plain and simple, he LIES. He is a snake oil salesman who lies to pitch what he wants. The "ongoing efforts to belittle his knowledge is just the amazement that many have as to the gulibility of his backers to accept what he is pitching. That what he does is "Perfect" and "TREMENDUS" and many other of the repetiticious phrases he spouts. There have been more than 33,000 deaths in the USA so far and he poo-pood the virus issue as it festered, blamed it all on China, the WHO, and anyone he could but when asked about responsibility, he refused to accept any, while having disbanded the pandemic staff the government. And Stating many times in February and March that this would all be over quickly. Meanwhile the virus multiplied. Now he wants to reopen the country and his "base" wants to ignore the SIP rules. So now he encurages them. Gives encuragement to the Gov of Georgia and then when the Gov. of Georgia opens his state, Trump thinks that is not so good. He wants to be able to claim victory while the fire is still expanding. Impatient little boy.
OM: Reading through your last word salad, it's hard to know what you actually think. Trump is incapable of doing an even adequate job. It's simply not in his personality or cognitive realm.
charlie hebdo Trump is incapable of doing an even adequate job. It's simply not in his personality or cognitive realm
I happen to agree with you, and that's before I acknowledge your specific distinctive competence to assess those sort of things.
The point I would make is that Trump is far from the only one to blame here, and a wide range of interests have manipulated the situation for their perceived benefit, including managing the feat of blasting Biden's prospective candidacy and Trump at the same time while apparently thinking we wouldn't notice ... I won't go into the subsequent politics except to note there are at least equal-grade lulus both in figures like DiBlasio and Newsom and that moron in New Orleans on the one hand, and the emergent-political-administrator folks who seem to have risen to prominence in 'gevernnent' science and health 'advisory' positions (where pseudo leaders like Trump will mistake their position for a credential of competence in something other than expedient career advancement, and as corporate management-without-a-clue so often does run a version of corporate reorganization with a 'magic bullet' solution du semaine ... added to in this case by Trump's penchant for taking credit for the idea just a bit too soon) on the other.
(And no, I'm not saying some variant of 'throw all those bums out and listen to ME because I have all the Super-Genius answers, either. I have to do Dunning-Kruger review every day on what I think I know, and be prepared to change when I am, as happens so often, wrong. But that's why it's good to point to why something might work, rather than just why I believe it, and get consensus on what to do subsequent to that with 'consent of the affected' and not just because it's expedient.)
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