York1 Convicted One So you are copying stories from behind a paywall, and pasting them here? I think what he is saying is that he doesn't like reading someone's post with just a link to an article, and then trying to access the link, can't get the article. I think he wants to avoid that.
Convicted One So you are copying stories from behind a paywall, and pasting them here?
I think what he is saying is that he doesn't like reading someone's post with just a link to an article, and then trying to access the link, can't get the article. I think he wants to avoid that.
I don't think he means that. If I understood him correctly, his problem came when he was done reading the post and wanted to see the 'source reference'.
Surely there is a sensible medium between long, probably technically illegal pasting of copyrighted and paywalled content on the one hand, and pasting little more than cryptic links to inaccessible or potentially reader-hostile and ad-infested sites on the other. One very useful part of that is use of the URL tags to substitute highlighted plaintext with some sort of descriptive language in place of the plain hotlinked URL code -- I see this is working this morning. Another is to use the quote tool or tags 'correctly' to take FAIR USE REFERENCES from the article text(s) and paste them in correctly (perhaps with their own inline references still 'live') and then intersperse a few comments, even if they are only a few words each, on the importance of what the 'quote' contains.
One very, very significant (at least to me) thing this helps with is getting rid of the great mass of objectionable or manipulative politics in many of these newsworker or propagandized accounts, stuff that does not belong in any discussions here as it's a repeatedly-mentioned violation of TOS. Some of us are 'trained' to read critically in the presence of active 'disinformation' or trolling attempts to rile up emotions, which are often a considerable part of such articles. But very few of us do that for 'pleasure'...
I appreciated the review and critique of the first half of the Washington Post article, which made me review and modifiy my immediate approval of it.
My current practise is and will be to do the kind of editing that resulted in my posting the Satuday tally on the state of the illness in Israel. One reason I overcame my first thoughts not to post anymore is that Israel is giving statistics, that I believe reliable, on those recovered. Who else is?
And my reading of McFarlain's post was that I should not post on the website period. His condemnation did not appear to me to be restricted to this thread.
So my answer should simply be: So don't read my posts.
daveklepper So my answer should simply be: So don't read my posts.
Yep. That all that is needed here.
An "expensive model collector"
Euclid Dave, I read the first part of the article you posted. You had chosen to omit that first part when you quoted the article. I find that omitted content to be quite interesting and do not see a problem if you do choose to post it. The following are my thoughts about that first part of the link: The first part of the article proposes a suggestion for addressing and solving the virus problem by the use of universal testing and contact tracing, apparently on continuing basis of monitoring everyone in the country. This suggested solution has not been implemented or tried by those suggesting it, but they imply that the current Administration is negligent for not implementing it. Yet there is no indication that the Administration has ruled it out. That implication in the article is that the Administration is not doing the right thing and is doing the wrong thing by wanting to restart the economy. But the suggestion of widespread testing and contact tracing does not preclude the option of restarting the economy. They are not mutually exclusive as the article implies. Certainly we cannot move ahead and complete the system for national testing and contact tracing prior to restarting the economy. That would leave the economy shut down for years while massive work of developing the new system of testing and tracing is implemented. I would like to see the price tag for the suggested new system of testing/tracing. It may be that our economy is simply incapable of servicing the debt on the funding needed for such a revolutionary and comprehensive federal system. The link to the article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/10/contact-tracing-coronavirus-strategy/
Dave,
I read the first part of the article you posted. You had chosen to omit that first part when you quoted the article. I find that omitted content to be quite interesting and do not see a problem if you do choose to post it. The following are my thoughts about that first part of the link:
The first part of the article proposes a suggestion for addressing and solving the virus problem by the use of universal testing and contact tracing, apparently on continuing basis of monitoring everyone in the country.
This suggested solution has not been implemented or tried by those suggesting it, but they imply that the current Administration is negligent for not implementing it. Yet there is no indication that the Administration has ruled it out. That implication in the article is that the Administration is not doing the right thing and is doing the wrong thing by wanting to restart the economy.
But the suggestion of widespread testing and contact tracing does not preclude the option of restarting the economy. They are not mutually exclusive as the article implies. Certainly we cannot move ahead and complete the system for national testing and contact tracing prior to restarting the economy. That would leave the economy shut down for years while massive work of developing the new system of testing and tracing is implemented. I would like to see the price tag for the suggested new system of testing/tracing. It may be that our economy is simply incapable of servicing the debt on the funding needed for such a revolutionary and comprehensive federal system.
The link to the article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/10/contact-tracing-coronavirus-strategy/
I don't quite understand what you are saying about my review of the first part of the Washington Post article. Above is what I said after you had said you omitted the first part because you considered it to be political. When you red my review, how did your opinion about the article change?
My email address is daveklepper@yahoo.com
Edited for conciseness from Jerusalem Post, website www.jpost.com
Israeli company Pluristem created a placenta-based cell-therapy that helps patients survive and improves respiratory parameters. After trials on animals, patients suffering from acute respiratory failure and inflammatory complications were treated at three different Israeli medical centers for one week under the country’s compassionate use program and all survived. Four of the patients had demonstrated failure of other organ systems, including cardiovascular and kidney failure. Four showed improvement in respiratory parameters with three in the advanced stages of weaning from ventilators, and two with preexisting medical conditions showing clinical recovery in addition to the respiratory improvement.
Pluristem CEO and president Yaky Yanay: “Pluristem is dedicated to using its competitive advantages in large-scale manufacturing to potentially deliver PLX cells to a large number of patients in significant need.”
The company will apply to multiple nations to begin clinical trials, including the FDA in the United States with whon Pluristem is already talking to “define our clinical strategy for COVID-19.”
The PLX cells are “allogeneic mesenchymal-like cells having immunomodulatory properties.” They harness our own immune system’s regulatory T cells and M2 macrophages to prevent overactivation of the immune system, helping to avoid the symptoms of pneumonia and pneumonitis from becoming fatal.
The previous abreviated article is timely because of the following, also edited for brevity:
The coronavirus survival rate on ventilators is disturbingly low, perhaps as low as 20%, according to Dr. Mehmet Oz.
"Ventilators have become a big concern," Dr. Oz told Sunday's "The Cats Roundtable" on 970 AM-N.Y., saying it is not about a shortage as much as a medical debate they might be endangering COVID-19 patients who need them. "When we use them — as we've used them for pneumonia — it might not be the best service for patients. "One of the things the COVID-19 does is that it hurts our ability to carry oxygen in our blood," he added to host John Catsimatidis. "That same process damages the lining of our lungs. What we really want is oxygen, not pressure, blasting through the lungs, which sometimes can hurt the lungs. That is perhaps one of the reasons why the survival rate in intubated patients, people with breathing tubes and ventilators, has been so poor."
80% of COVID-19 patients who go on ventilators do not survive, according to findingss quoted by New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo. "In my hospital, New York Presbyterian, we're getting about a 50% survival rate, which is significantly better than what Gov. [Cuomo] had quoted as a 20% survival rate," Dr. Oz said.
I don't believe that I am being political by stating that most of us agree neither Netenyahuh here in Israel nor Trump in the USA handled this problem 100% right from the start regardless of one's opinion of current actions. Be glad you are in the USA or Canada and not in France. The hospital train scheme is a reat necessity there. I received a message that originated at Gatestone, seems truthfull, wish to share it but not post it and traced to the URL:
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15880/coronavirus-france-disaster
Your comments are welcome.
daveklepper I don't believe that I am being political by stating that most of us agree neither Netenyahuh here in Israel nor Trump in the USA handled this problem 100% right from the start regardless of one's opinion of current actions.
I don't believe that I am being political by stating that most of us agree neither Netenyahuh here in Israel nor Trump in the USA handled this problem 100% right from the start regardless of one's opinion of current actions.
What would handling the problem 100% correctly consist of?
Listening to the advice of the best experts who have demonstrated competence and doing the best possible to follow their recommendations.
And thank you for asking the question.
EuclidWhat would handling the problem 100% correctly consist of?
Setting up the complex of 'standing' pandemic-response teams and organizations that should have been in place decades ago.
Now, with rapid sequencing, near-pervasive electronic communication, and vast cloud-based computational and storage resources, much of what used to require months and months of carefully-coordinated work can now be done effectively in... well, in the three days it took the Chinese to sequence the virus, and the subsequent 9 to 10 days it took the CDC to design and DFM the initial viral-particle test modality.
Unfortunately, all the science and technological capability in the world can't make up for shortsightedness, political and other expediency, and to a lesser extent overspecialization coupled with the wrong sort of appeals to authority. We're now seeing chapter 17 or so of the fribbling with the current discussion of masks and what they are 'supposed' to do, which even a cursory understanding of mechanical filtration will substantially expose.
Fortunately, this can be like the lifeboat 'controversy' concerning Titanic, which worked out by far for the best ... when your Britannic goes down much harder and faster later. Bill Gates and others are correct, I think, in expecting far greater catastrophe perhaps sooner than later, and it is ridiculous to think even that the economy can be crashed over a wretched lack of foresight ... let alone the suffering and death that is being 'tolerated' because a wide range of the experts in effective control of the situation are dropping their respective balls. The folks in basic and applied science appear to have been doing many, if not all, the 'necessary' jobs quite competently.
daveklepper I don't believe that I am being political by stating that most of us agree neither Netenyahuh here in Israel nor Trump in the USA handled this problem 100% right from the start regardless of one's opinion of current actions. Be glad you are in the USA or Canada and not in France. The hospital train scheme is a reat necessity there. I received a message that originated at Gatestone, seems truthfull, wish to share it but not post it and traced to the URL: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15880/coronavirus-france-disaster Your comments are welcome.
Any article that refers to this pandemic as the "Chinese Communist Party virus" is an example of ignorance and/or political propaganda at its worst.
You should stop posting such stuff.
Additionally, many more than 2-3 members have asked you to stop already with the logorrhea. If you don't know how to summarize, just post the link as long as it is not to a paywalled or advertisement-loaded article. If you want a personal blog, start one. There are many apps to do so. Google it.
Never mind.....
daveklepper Listening to the advice of the best experts who have demonstrated competence and doing the best possible to follow their recommendations. And thank you for asking the question.
How do you find the best experts, and how do you know they are best? Are the best experts in perfect agreement about the approach to the problem? What will the best experts say is the proper time to lift the stay home orders? Would it be defying the best experts to lift the orders on 5/1/20?
Euclid, both leaders made statements that contradicted warnings from medical experts. The Washington Post article made that clear in the case of Trump. Did you get a different impression from the article than I did? Or are you challenging the statements made in the article?
On another thread, it was suggested that if all New Yorkers had been required to wear face masks much ealier, the problelm would not be so severe there. Others have suggested that "social distanfing" should have been practsed earlier.
Anyway, if you have facts that indicate that either Trump or Netenyahu consulted with medical experts having experience in controling viruses, before making their first statements concerning the virus, tell us about it, and we can all learn from you. My memory is that Trump first dismissed the virus as unimportant and that Netenyahu indicated that normal medical procedures with nothing like face-masks or social distancing would have things under control. Am I wrong?
Expert, Dr. Fauci is today saying that if expert advice had been followed, we would see fewer deaths today from the virus. Yet in January, he was dismissing the threat as being nothing to worry about. Shortly after that, Trump restricted travel as Fauci downplayed the risk.
The Washington Post article is definitely blaming Trump for not doing enough to fight the virus. But I think their argument is bogus becasue the reason we do not have their recommented national program of testing/contatct tracing is not because Trump refused to create that system. Yet that is the impression the article conveys.
It was impossible to create and operate the test/trace system without years of development and eye popping cost. Our society has never seen such a system to be justified, and so the collective wisdon has never embraced it as an objective.
So when this virus came calling, we had no national system because our society never thought we needed one. Only now, with the virus here, do we suddenly see the national test/trace system as being essential. But it is still years off in development, and is bound to face fierce resistance from the people who will be constantly scrutinized. In no way is the lack of this system due to any decision by the President.
MiningmanOur ex-spurts sold out manufacturing and the middle class and a lot of blue collar employment to MADE IN CHINA all for the benefit of the .1%, but golly gee all that defective crap sure is cheap. In the truest sense of the word.
But just think about all the high paying logistics jobs that were created, not to mention construction jobs raising bridges, deepening harbors, and daylighting tunnels..
Israel has diverted military and police to the fight against the virus. If resiurces available had immediately been put to use to develop the program, would it not already stated to reduce the impact of the virus?
And as proven by France, Trump could have done a lot worse than he did.
Miningman daveklepper Listening to the advice of the best experts who have demonstrated competence and doing the best possible to follow their recommendations. And thank you for asking the question. What a load of garbage that statement is. There are any number of ex-spurts on numerous networks all blathering on with their own view. Cripes first it's no masks, then masks, then make your own masks. There is so much political noise mucking up the picture it's impossible to tell one ex-spurt from another ex-spurt. Back in the 80's we find Fauci yet again, blathering on about the AIDS epidemic and that everyone needs to carry paper showing they are free of the thing and renewed every 3 months. That AIDS was transmitted by kissing, scared the beejeezuz out of everyone. If you listened to ex-spurts in France you'd be dead, and if you're not they will assist with euthanasia. Our ex-spurts sold out manufacturing and the middle class and a lot of blue collar employment to MADE IN CHINA all for the benefit of the .1%, but golly gee all that defective crap sure is cheap. In the truest sense of the word. They say this is a war. Yeah with China, and guess what? They already won. You mean to actual accept that after 911 and Anthrax that we learned nothing, that a surge of 4,000 hospitalizations 'overwhelmed the system' ... in New York City! China is one move away from Checkmate. Replacing the US dollar as the worlds currency reserve is next. They actually think ahead. The Murderous Barbarian Chinese Communist Wuhan Coronavirus , ( or the MBCCWC, as we are fond of doing) ( Hebdo is in orbit, calm down) finds us in a suddenly un- churched world and a flattened one at that. As for up here in the GWN ( great white North, which it sure is this year) Trudeau's government of submissive boot licking of communism combined with cluelessness, pathological lies and imbecility has left us with very few tools left to fix the economy. There are your ex-spurts.
And you claim to be a professor?
Not a technical report .. it's opinion. In addition I am a Mining Guy, from industry , not a teaching academic grad, Certainly do not claim to be a Professor. Just your friendly neighborhood Exploration Geologist and Undeground Grade and Ground Control Fella.
Over a period of 12 years now I have graduated well over a hundred Mining Technologists , 99% of them Aboriginal , all successful and all keep in touch with me.
I'm tired of all the endless speculation about everything. Especially from most of the US press which seems to be doing its best to install FEAR in everyone. First, that everyone was going to be sick and so many die. Second, that the economy is going to tank forever and the only way to avoid that is have Federal Government control so much of it we'll be a full socialist country.
As for the blame game, as far as I'm concerned the legitimate targets are communist China and WHO. (The more I read in depth about China's influence with the WHO and particularly with its current leader, the more I'm concerned it has been too compromised to be trusted in the future.) China because they've been having problems with their "wet" markets for years but haven't done anything about it as well as their ongoing attempt to deceive the world as to what was actually happening to the point of outright lying.
I look throughout US and much of the world and I don't see any leader who wasn't caught offguard by the serverity of this outbreak. [Korea was lucky. Due to the internal pandemic they had several years ago they were still stocked up with the needed supplies. With that very recent experience were able to rapidly get their emergency teams moving quickly. That also meant they were able to avoid the drastic lock-downs that so many other of the countries have.] Two of them did at least do something early--Trump and the Italian premier who both issued edicts concerning flights from communist China within hours of each other in late January. Of course, then all we heard for the next several weeks from almost all the US news media and every dem politican was how terrible and racist Trump was to do that. This is the same news media that coninues to ignore the mistakes so many politicians like Como and DeBlassio made throughout February and into March.
Dave, if you thing the Washington Post does not have a political agenda that drives them you are living in a dream world. It is a little better than the NY Times as it still has a fact checker who will call out the worst of the left's lies along with any garbage from the right. For example, he did call out the left for their claim that Trump said that coronavirus "was all a hoax" giving that a totally false rating. Of course, it still hasn't stopped the dems from claiming that in the dem black money TV ad that keeps running locally. The ad takes bits of various Trump's speeches and strings them together so as to give a false narative of what he actual was saying.
I have many acquaintants who are passionate democrat supporters who vote straight ticket. Since higher academia is now about 90% democrat in most areas of the US, that's to be expected given my many years working in it. But I am suprised at how many of the faculty openly have said that they hope that the economy crashes and the US goes into a 2nd Great Depression if that's what it takes to defeat Trump. What's even more troubling to me is how too many of them want a level of socialism in this country that's definitely to the left of European socialism--something that's close to communism. [Anyone who doesn't understand or doesn't want to believe that academics who have passionate political beliefs do communicate them to their students is naive.]
jeffhergert zugmann Overmod "...Yet not enough to suspend these completely rediculous and draconian attendance policies* that were shoved down our throats..." *policies that were not agreed to in any contract, I might add. Zug, does your company have the ability to include lesser holidays (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Halloween, etc) and other non-holiday days (Superbowl, day after Thanksgiving, etc) under the heading as 'peak days?' Here's ours, took effect March 1. https://www.bletstlhub.org/files/TE%26Y%20Attendance%20Policy%20V10.pdf "...Even if you have a doctor's excuse, they do not have to accept it. They can still terminate someone over attendence even if you have valid documentation for the absence..." Jeff
zugmann Overmod "...Yet not enough to suspend these completely rediculous and draconian attendance policies* that were shoved down our throats..." *policies that were not agreed to in any contract, I might add.
Overmod
"...Yet not enough to suspend these completely rediculous and draconian attendance policies* that were shoved down our throats..."
*policies that were not agreed to in any contract, I might add.
Zug, does your company have the ability to include lesser holidays (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Halloween, etc) and other non-holiday days (Superbowl, day after Thanksgiving, etc) under the heading as 'peak days?'
Here's ours, took effect March 1.
https://www.bletstlhub.org/files/TE%26Y%20Attendance%20Policy%20V10.pdf
"...Even if you have a doctor's excuse, they do not have to accept it. They can still terminate someone over attendence even if you have valid documentation for the absence..."
Jeff
Talk about DRACONIAN attendance policies for an employee force that is not bound by leg irons or handcuffs in their workspaces...
Maybe, with the 'blessings' of the various craft's buisiness agents; the railroads might, or maybe, should bring back attendance measures such as keel-hauling. or possibly, even flogging; fhey might be more appropriate to insure cooperative attendance in the work place?
After all, they worked for hundreds of years to discipline British royal navy sailors, and even, in the younger, Continental navy, at times.
daveklepper Israel has diverted military and police to the fight against the virus. If resiurces available had immediately been put to use to develop the program, would it not already stated to reduce the impact of the virus? And as proven by France, Trump could have done a lot worse than he did.
To your point I highlighed in red, I would say the answer is: "Not a chance."
A new system for mass testing and contact tracking would have had to be available as the first case of the virus reached this country. Prior to that, nobody anticipated the need. If the new system could have been designed and executed within say 2-4 weeks, It might have slowed down the spread somewhat. But I think the system would require at least a couple years to develop and be ready for any degree of application.
Regarding your comment in blue, you say Trump could have done worse. That seems to suggest he did not do as well as would have been possible. What is it that he did not do, but could have done to mitigate the danger?
Miningman- as far as there being no blue collar jobs anymore, that is wrong! I am in factories all day long in Southern Ontario for insurance purposes. The average household item is made in China, but do you want a forklift, a streetcar, an automobile, a skyjack lift, a jar of Hellman's mayonaisse, sausages, ravioli and other food items? All are made here. The landing gear for the 2-story Airbus aircraft was made in Oakville, the heat treating of the landing gear legs was done in Burlington. There's a Dupont plant in Kingston that does lost-wax castings. I've been in all these places and what is making mayonaisse but industry?
Didn't say there were none! Just a lot have gone, a lot of industry. Going to get worse with automation coming as well.
Whole towns have been reduced to welfare enclaves. Used to be this , used to be that.
Burlington is my home town, I'm well aware of what's going on, have 3 daughters, one in Burlington, one in Toronto and one in Owen Sound.
When all the hoopla about Ferguson Missouri was going on I saw a report of all the industry and business that had left town way prior to the problems. There were a lot. I was quite surprised by that and realized the economic devastation that left behind.
The only way that the corona virus could have been stopped was if action had been taken in Wuhan in December 2019 when it became apparent that this was a very contagious virus. Unfortunately any such effort was shut down by the local government. The only way that the virus could have prevented from entering the US was if the US sealed all of the borders before Jan 1, 2020 (or perhaps a few days before).
There is plenty of blame that can be passed around for the mistakes and lost opportunities in the US response, with the vast majority of the US news media included. Probably the best example of how to "do it right" was Taiwan, which shut down traffic from the PRC and implemented a crash program to make face masks and well as implementing a testing and tracking program - with this effort starting early January.
MiningmanWhole towns have been reduced to welfare enclaves. Used to be this , used to be that.
Not to overlook that as many companies off-shore their production, competition for the remaining jobs increases, with a downward pressure on pay where frequently the skilled workers are forced to take available jobs below their skill levels.
Perhaps morbid, but could this pandemic realign the job market back into a sellers market?
In great part in honor of this thread, I've decided to change my signature for the time being. Just replace the "...has a mind to do" with "...has a mind to believe." (I didn't want to alter Ben Franklin's words.)
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Convicted One Miningman Whole towns have been reduced to welfare enclaves. Used to be this , used to be that. Not to overlook that as many companies off-shore their production, competition for the remaining jobs increases, with a downward pressure on pay where frequently the skilled workers are forced to take available jobs below their skill levels. Perhaps morbid, but could this pandemic realign the job market back into a sellers market?
Miningman Whole towns have been reduced to welfare enclaves. Used to be this , used to be that.
Returning product manufacturing to this country from China will dramatically raise product prices. But that will be somewhat offset by better paying jobs and far better product quality. Also consider that cheap products from China has taught our U.S. marketing how much consumers are willing to sacrifice quality for a lower price. So I am sure that U.S. companies can take up the slack by manufacturing poor quality as well as the Chinese do.
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