CMStPnPYour bringing up an example of the cheapest fare on Lufhansa in which your not paying for the meal but it is given to you for free..............how is this even on the same level as the rest of the discussion here?
I am not at all sure the report from "ecoli" is factual. I fly Lufthansa usually 3-4 RT's annually, on coach and i have never been served a meal remotely like the one he referenced.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ecoliI flew Lufthansa in coach last month, and the meal I remember centered on a dish full of gravy. From beneath the waves of gravy I fished out a white mass of chicken or pork (it was advertised as chicken, so I'll assume that was true) and a handful of green beans. In one corner was another mass, the color of the chicken but the consistency of the gravy, which I decided must be mashed potatoes. The dessert was a microscopic square of some sort of cobbler, and although the identity of the fruit was ambiguous, it might have been tasty had it only contained some trace of sugar.
Yeah you know you have to make a fair comparison here. Schlim referenced meals he paid for in a DB restaurant car. We are all talking about meals in an Amtrak diner for sale to coach passengers but included in First Class fare.
Your bringing up an example of the cheapest fare on Lufhansa in which your not paying for the meal but it is given to you for free..............how is this even on the same level as the rest of the discussion here? Why not discuss the quality of food you got in a homeless shelter somewhere to Amtrak.....that would be a close analogy of what your doing comparing cut-rate Lufthansa Coach complimentary meals to what is served by Amtrak and CHARGED to coach passengers. Apples and Oranges.
Now if you flew Business Class or First Class then maybe you might have had a point. Still until you do a First Class to First Class comparison OR you actually pay for the meal. Your not comparing on the same level.
Also, I don't think we could get away with selling alcoholic beverages via vending machines. I'm not much of a drinker myself, but I recognize the plain fact that a lot of people want to drink when they travel. I don't even want to think about what wine goes best with a tuna salad sandwich from the vending machine.
Sent my last one before I saw yours.
My experience with Metroliners and airlines is pretty limited. I haven't flown in years, and it's been a long time since I've been in electrified territory. I suspect the purchase price of a really high quality pre-prepared meal may not be a lot higher than the price of a lousy one. Let's pull some numbers out of thin air for an illustration, since I don't know what the real numbers are. Let's say the cost of amortization, maintenance, and operation of the diner is 50% of what we have to charge to break even. The cost of the food is 25%, and the cost of labor is 25%. I'm certain that these figures are wrong, but they will serve to illustrate the issue. Maybe Amtrak could buy a cheaper product and reduce the food cost to 23 or 24%. Or they could buy a superior product and increase the percentage to 26 or 27%. Would that provide enough savings to solve the problem? Probably not.
However, long distance trains need some kind of food service, and some of these costs are unavoidable.
Somebody mentioned vending machines. That feels to me a lot like Greyhound's Burger King solution. I can imagine serious problems with operation of vending machines that are subject to the constant jostling on the train. Back in the days when the Auto Train used Heritage cars, we had electric pianos in the ex-GN Great Dome lounge cars. There were three cars in the pool: one southbound, one northbound, and one in reserve. One car had a terrific piano; one had a piano with several keys that didn't work; and one had a piano that didn't work at all. The contract piano repair man never seemed to be able to be available when the car was. So that situation persisted until we got the Superliners. I suspect we would have the same problem with vending machines. Imagine a car full of hungry passengers who can see the food in the machine, but can't get to it because the machine is out of order. And the repair man is 500 miles away.
I'm no guru. I don't have all the answers.
Boy, Dave, you sure get up early in the morning! I do too when I'm working, but not on my days off. Currently I'm taking some personal business days. Otherwise I'd be on the road now.
I haven't ever been on Acela, and haven't been on any trains in the electrified territory in a long time, so I can't give any up to date info on those services. I agree that it would be good to hear from somebody who has done that work, but I'm hesitant to discuss what I don't know.
I don't remember the name of our Kosher provider. As to cost, I don't have the numbers available right now, but I seem to recall that the price of the Kosher meals that Amtrak provides is not much cheaper (if at all) than the meals prepared by the chef. This is according to the paperwork that the LSAD (Lead Service Attendant - Diner) works with. Now, these are the figures that the accountants work with. They include amortization, operation, and maintenance of the equipment, in addition to the cost of labor and the cost of the food itself. Remember, we are talking about the amortization of cars that cost a couple million to build, plus maintenance. And the newest Superliners are about 20 years old, so maintenance costs must be pretty significant. If you ignore these expenditures, then you can't run the diner at all. Somewhere along the line, somebody mentioned the combining of lounge and diner service on the Capitol Limited. It was suggested that crew size remained the same, so the elimination of one car didn't save any money. I was under the impression that at least one job was eliminated, although I'm not sure. In any event, it saves money if you're hauling one less 100-ton car from Washington to Chicago and back.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Kosher meals, but I don't think I've ever heard any passenger rave about how good a Kosher meal was. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever heard a really serious complaint about them either. I have frequently been told to thank the chef for grilling a (non-Kosher) steak just right. Occasionally a passenger will receive the Kosher meal that he ordered, and decide that the steak being served to the guy across the aisle looks better. So he decides he'd rather have the steak (or chicken, or fish, or whatever). The cynic in me sometimes asks if I've just witnessed a religious conversion, but that's not for me to judge. You have to find humor where you can if you want to stay sane.
For anybody who doesn't know, Amtrak can provide Kosher meals and some other special meals WITH ADVANCE NOTICE. We usually have only enough of those supplies aboard to cover the needs of those who have pre-ordered them.
Oh --- I should add that my previous comment about sound & fury & signifying nothing applies mostly to the bloviation we get from Congress. I won't name names.
Tom
More questions for you. If you never experienced Acela (I have not either, just relying on others' reports) perhaps you, like I did, experience Metroliner 1st Class? I considered the food very good, but the portions a bit small.
Have you ever taken long international flights? I have not for the last 17-1/2 years, but before that a lot. With the exception of a flight to and one returning from South America, Caracas, I thought the food served me ranged from good to excellent. My very first international flight was on an Air France jet to Paris in 1960. The longest was 15 hours South African Airways to Johannasburg. (A seatmate on one SAA flight was Alexander Hamilton III, and some readers may have known Alex, one of the founders of the Seashore Trolley Museum, among other railfan activities, including involvement in the Mt. Washington Cog at one point. On another flight a famous black jazz performer.) I will admit that I always investigated the food reputation of the airline before deciding, but the experiences did show me that prepackaged meals can be better than the "TV dinners" you mention.
I began riding trains solo at age 10, 1942, and dining car meals were always a highlight of the trip. My memories are too many to even be summarized here. But around 1970, age 28, I began a path to become an Orthodox Jew. At first this meant avoiding pork and shellfish, then, from about 1980 to moving to Jerusalem in 1996, avoiding meat altogether. I insisted, for example, on continuing to enjoy the Rocky Mountain Trout on the RGZ. But much of the time I preordered Kosher meals, for dinner Kosher-fish-vegetarian, which Amtrak had (has?) as an option. I believe from personal experience that Amtrak used and may still use Wilton Caterers, who did and may still supply El Al, including first class on their planes. I found Amtrak's Kosher meals up to the then high standard of regular dining car meals, which at times I still enjoyed, because not all trips could be planned sufficiently in advance and because there were last-minute changes. Even when there was nothing vegetarian on the menue, the dining car staff was always able to improvise something good. I have nothing but good to say about any of the dining cars I used, regarding both food and service. (Obviously the period of Amtrak's "cafateria service" on the Florida trains was a mercifully-short low-point, but not really bad, only substandard compared to before and after.) My only bad experiences were with New York Central and Penn Central snack cars, which I learned to avoid.
Based on my experiences with prepackaged Kosher meals, and good reports, both on this website and corresponance from friends, about the food on Acela, I think it should be possible to have equivalent quality with prepackaged meals. No reason the menue cannot be varied.
When you were on the job, did you get complaints about any of the Kosher meals or other prepackaged special diet meals? How often and as compared with regular meals?
Have you sampled what Acela provides, especially in first class?
Your further comments will be appreciated and should be valuable.
DAVEKLEPPER:
I was careful to disassociate myself from Amtrak policy because I'm not a policy maker and I'm not an official spokesman, and I don't claim to know all I would need to know in order to be those things. My relatively brief experience working on the NE Corridor was over 20 years ago, way before Acela was even thought of. I see no reason that quality should be a problem for a well-trained, experienced dining car crew, provided they are given the proper food to prepare and the proper equipment to use. That being said, no chef can do much with a pre-prepared meal that is packaged in such a way that the chef isn't allowed to do anything except follow the directions printed on the label. For example, Kosher meals are set up that way. They are placed, unopened, in a convection oven (NO, NOT A MICROWAVE) and taken out at the designated time. The chef is absolutely forbidden to deviate from the printed instructions. If the passenger doesn't like it, then blaming the chef is like shooting the messenger (Our diner's microwave oven is mostly used for thawing, by the way).
Pre-prepared meals might eliminate some of the work. I don't know whether it would make the chef's work easier because the Company would cut a job if they could, and the chef would probably have to do more tasks that were previously done by others. I'm also not so sure about saving money. Think of it this way: You could go to the store and buy a bunch of TV dinners and live on them for an indefinite time. On the other hand, you could go to the same store and buy some beef, some chicken, some turkey, some seafood, some pork, plus bread, vegetables, etc. Then you could prepare your meals one at a time. The second option probably gives you better meals, better balance and nutrition, and better economies. The difference is in whether it's worth paying for the labor to do it the second way. Also, is it cheaper for Amtrak to wash dishes every evening after serving 200 sleeper passengers, or is it cheaper to replace 200 place settings IN EACH DIRECTION with disposable plastic every day, 365 days a year? (Coach passengers already eat on plastic). I don't know the answer.
For passengers travelling short distances, abbreviated meal service makes sense. On an overnight train (17-1/2 hrs. on the Auto Train), people are not going to be satisfied with a simple sandwich. On "two night" trains to the West Coast (which I have not worked), passengers will not want to eat the same thing tonight that they had last night. Many years ago I had the misfortune to travel by Greyhound from the S.F. bay area to New York City by Greyhound. Greyhound had recently shut down a lot of the old Post Houses and contracted with Burger King to provide enroute meal stops. After that trip, it was several years before I could stand to pass by a Burger King, much less eat there. I don't think we want to do that to our passengers.
Many of our passengers have special dietary needs. If they have sensitivities to milk, wheat, etc., then we can prepare their meal without sauce, or make some other appropriate adjustment. Your options are more limited when you're serving pre-prepared meals.
One of the reasons for the Auto Train's success, I think, is simply volume. We carry four Superliner coaches and six Superliner sleepers. At this time of the year, the southbound train tends to run full. That's over 400 passengers and over 200 automobiles that aren't contributing to the crowding on I-95. In the spring, those snowbirds will be going back north. Of course, we have some empty seats in the reverse direction. During the summer, northern families are going round trip to see Mickey Mouse in Florida, and Florida families are taking round trips to DC, NYC, etc. College students go back and forth to schools between terms and for holidays. Many of our older folks are of an advanced age, and many can't fly for medical reasons. I say this to emphasize the fact that what works on the Auto Train won't NECESSARILY work on all other long distance trains.
I can think of some ways we can economize, and have shared these ideas with my supervisors, and will continue to do so as long as I work there. So have a lot of my coworkers. Whether these ideas will be (or should be) implemented is out of our control.
These are complicated issues, and deserve serious consideration. I don't claim to have all the answers, but some of the comments have reminded me of the Bard, who said "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." (Maybe that's too strong, but I couldn't resist).
ACY, I respect your opinion, and agree with what you wrote. However, I still have to ask the question:
Would not a change to the kinds of service provided on Acxela preserve quality, make work easier, and resullt in less of a monitary loss?
...........and Dakotafred, THANKS.
Well, I finally got through the whole thing, although I have to admit I skimmed some of it. After all, it's 12 pages of postings now, and seems to be growing. I did think it was curious that it took 11 pages before anybody brought up the Auto train model. For the record, ALL Auto Train passengers get dinner and breakfast as a matter of course. There are no short-hauls. Everybody is going the entire 850+ miles overnight, so they have to eat. The breakfast is nearly the same for coach passengers and sleeper passengers. It's an Amtrak version of a Continental breakfast, with a selection of cold cereals, warmed bagels and corn muffins, juice, fruit, and coffee, tea, or decaf. Considering our 9:30 a.m. scheduled arrival (we are often earlier), and our passenger load of 400 passengers, it's a practical thing. If we gave passengers a cooked, sit-down breakfast, we might get half of the passengers served before arrival. What would we say to the rest?
For dinner, the sleeper diner features the passenger's choice of steak, one seafood entrée, one poultry entrée, one vegetarian entrée, or a children's meal of chicken tenders, followed by dessert. The coach menu is similar, except that the entrees tend to be of a slightly lower grade. For example, sleeper passengers are offered a steak, while coach passengers may be offered short ribs of beef. Salads are provided in the sleeper diner, but not in the coach diner because there is nobody available to prepare them in the coach section. Coach attendants board their cars, then serve as wait staff in the coach diner. Wine is available on a complimentary basis in both coach and sleeper diners, although the quality and selection is commensurate with the fare differential. Other differences, such as vinyl or linen table cloths reflect the higher prices paid by sleeping car passengers.
The Lead Service Attendant (LSA) in each diner has to account for everything, and must report all food used. While there are dollar figures attached to the paperwork, I don't really know how this breaks down because I'm not the LSA. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that economies could be realized just by simplifying the paperwork. This has been discussed for the entire 26+ years that I have worked for Amtrak. Hopefully it will become a reality some day.
As for an Amtrak exception that frees it from local health codes, the fact is that Amtrak, as an Interstate carrier, is not regulated by any State or local health agency. It is regulated directly by the Food & Drug Administration. I have discussed this with a retired State restaurant inspector, and I understand that the standards of the FDA are far more stringent than those of any State agency. This might present legal problems for a restaurant that puts food aboard in Texas, to be consumed in New Mexico.
I think I know ways that our service could be delivered at lower cost, but I'm not in a policy-making position, so it's not for me to say. In any case, I am not writing as a representative of Amtrak, but as a private individual. My opinions are my own and should not be construed to represent Amtrak policy.
I do believe that the idea of eliminating the Union is a major factor in certain politicians' positions on this issue. However, it should be remembered that onboard service personnel do a lot more than the job you see them doing. Our training is heavily focused on safety in the onboard environment, and it involves extensive knowledge of the equipment. In another forum, I recently mentioned a medical emergency that occurred aboard the Auto Train. Without going into detail, I will say that o.b.s. employees were the first responders in that case, and I think the passenger has reason to be grateful that he was not at the mercy of a teenaged burger-flipper at a fast food joint.
Maybe I'm thin skinned about this, but a few posters have implied a disdain for o.b.s. employees, particularly dining car staff. Some have stated it openly. Well, I don't apologize for my job, and I don't apologize for earning a decent wage for it. I'm 67 years old and getting ready to retire, and after all these years I think I deserve to retire with a pension, modest though that pension may be.
Good to hear from one of the soldiers, ACY.
In my recent 5,245-mile Amtrak trip, I ran into one poor dining-car crew. All the others were super stars ... and in personality, besides in the performance of their duties.
Virtue will prevail! Keep up the good work.
Thank you, NKP Guy. I've been off line for some time due to technical problems and the demands of my Amtrak work schedule. I'm now trying to catch up by reading through this whole thing, and my reactions have sent me through more emotional ups and downs than I'd experience in a month of Shakespearean dramas. I've noticed that privatization has been cited as a sure-fire solution, even though privatization is what we had before Amtrak was established to replace it. I've heard that "professionals in the food industry" will know more about food service IN THE ONBOARD ENVIRONMENT than will those of us who provide such service every day. I've heard that Amtrak chefs only know how to operate microwave ovens. Tell that to one of our chefs who is busy cleaning his grill at eleven p.m., anticipating a five o'clock wakeup time so that he can be ready to open the diner for breakfast at 6 a.m. I've also read how lazy dining car servers are. Good thing I read it here, because I was too tired to notice when I finished my most recent round trip.
The fact is, the work is about as difficult as the work of any restaurant employee EXCEPT for the fact that you're constantly on your feet, working your muscles against the motion of the train, and EXCEPT for the long hours with minimal layover time and minimal time for sleep enroute at night.
If it weren't for the protection we get from the union, and the higher wages and security that union membership provides, there aren't many of us who would stay.
Now I'll go back to reading this stuff. Some of it is pretty good, but there's a lot of fiction.
oltmannd Is the current schedule optimum for today's population and potential ridership? Or, is it still an historical vestige from the 1950s?
Is the current schedule optimum for today's population and potential ridership? Or, is it still an historical vestige from the 1950s?
Unfortunately I think we have to go back much earlier than the 1950s to find a time when the Sunset route was optimum. I realize it's less of a handicap for freight, some of which doesn't mind detouring and backing up and wasting time to get where it wants to go, but it's still got to be a negative factor that our rail routes favor the places that made sense in 1910 and reach only awkwardly many places that make sense today. As I thread my way through the semis on I-10 between Tucson and Phoenix, I console myself that the parallel UP tracks are reasonably busy, and it never pays to argue with Warren Buffett when he talks about things like the bright future of railroading.
oltmannd ecoliWhile I'm unfamiliar with Texas, it looks like the Chili's/Applebee's strategy is even more problematic earlier in the day on the westbound Sunset Limited. El Paso arrival is 1:22pm mountain time, which is a bit late for lunch, considering that the train might be running late, and also considering that the passenger stomachs have recently made the transition from central time, so they're growling like it's 2:22pm. The previous stop is Alpine at 10:38am central, but Google says no Chili's/Applebee's category restaurants there. Prior to that is Sanderson at 8:24am, where Google lists only 2 obscure restaurants, though one of them does have a review recommending it during mule deer season. Prior to that is Del Rio at 5:49am, where we do have both Chili's and Applebee's, but they don't open till 10:45am and 11am respectively. Is the current schedule optimum for today's population and potential ridership? Or, is it still an historical vestige from the 1950s?
ecoliWhile I'm unfamiliar with Texas, it looks like the Chili's/Applebee's strategy is even more problematic earlier in the day on the westbound Sunset Limited. El Paso arrival is 1:22pm mountain time, which is a bit late for lunch, considering that the train might be running late, and also considering that the passenger stomachs have recently made the transition from central time, so they're growling like it's 2:22pm. The previous stop is Alpine at 10:38am central, but Google says no Chili's/Applebee's category restaurants there. Prior to that is Sanderson at 8:24am, where Google lists only 2 obscure restaurants, though one of them does have a review recommending it during mule deer season. Prior to that is Del Rio at 5:49am, where we do have both Chili's and Applebee's, but they don't open till 10:45am and 11am respectively.
I just looked it up. It's roughly the same schedule EB, but the WB is flipped. This train serves three purposes, generally. One is the corridor from NOL to San Antonio. The other is Tuscon to LA. The third purpose would be people going between these populated ends.
So, best schedule would be daylight on the ends and overnight between. A couple of problems with this. One is that the tri-weekly schedule means it's pretty useless for day travel at the ends. You just have to happen to have trip timing that fits the train's schedule. Another is that, at current speeds (which are pretty close to 1957 speeds) you have to choose one end or the other - the timing just doesn't work for both. On the eastern end, the route looks good in terms of population centers, but the train's avg speed boarders on "why even bother".
I have to agree, if you are looking for anything - food included, between San Antonio and Tuscon, it's slim pickings. You certainly don't want to optimize the schedule to fit your food service scheme and you'll likely have the same issues, perhaps to a lesser extent, with the other western LD trains. So, you may need different strategies for eastern vs. western LD trains. Perhaps the new route managers will have some freedom in this regard.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
ecoli Sam1 Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses. Sam1 You have taken one example and generalized it. Bad logic. Food service is an ancillary line. It is not a core competency for Amtrak or the airlines. Comparing food service to the corporation as a whole is not a good match. Bankruptcy has nothing to do with food service on Amtrak. First you compared Amtrak's food service operation to a pair of corporations whose entire business is food service ("Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years?") Now you say "Comparing [Amtrak] food service to the corporation as a whole is not a good match." I think you have it right the second time. If you like, we can discuss more examples of surviving corporations that have taken more than 5 years to turn around their businesses. Next up: GM. After that, some more airlines. Some corporations are subsidized by the government directly, others by being allowed to stiff their creditors and stockholders in bankruptcy court.
Sam1 Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.
Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.
Sam1 You have taken one example and generalized it. Bad logic. Food service is an ancillary line. It is not a core competency for Amtrak or the airlines. Comparing food service to the corporation as a whole is not a good match. Bankruptcy has nothing to do with food service on Amtrak.
You have taken one example and generalized it. Bad logic.
Food service is an ancillary line. It is not a core competency for Amtrak or the airlines. Comparing food service to the corporation as a whole is not a good match. Bankruptcy has nothing to do with food service on Amtrak.
First you compared Amtrak's food service operation to a pair of corporations whose entire business is food service ("Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years?") Now you say "Comparing [Amtrak] food service to the corporation as a whole is not a good match." I think you have it right the second time.
If you like, we can discuss more examples of surviving corporations that have taken more than 5 years to turn around their businesses. Next up: GM. After that, some more airlines. Some corporations are subsidized by the government directly, others by being allowed to stiff their creditors and stockholders in bankruptcy court.
A food service line, which is an ancillary service, and a corporation workout are not comparable. They are not even close.
While I'm unfamiliar with Texas, it looks like the Chili's/Applebee's strategy is even more problematic earlier in the day on the westbound Sunset Limited. El Paso arrival is 1:22pm mountain time, which is a bit late for lunch, considering that the train might be running late, and also considering that the passenger stomachs have recently made the transition from central time, so they're growling like it's 2:22pm. The previous stop is Alpine at 10:38am central, but Google says no Chili's/Applebee's category restaurants there. Prior to that is Sanderson at 8:24am, where Google lists only 2 obscure restaurants, though one of them does have a review recommending it during mule deer season. Prior to that is Del Rio at 5:49am, where we do have both Chili's and Applebee's, but they don't open till 10:45am and 11am respectively.
Maybe lunch has to come from Pizza Hut or Subway in Alpine--or, of course, McDonald's.
Next I was going to explore breakfast, but I'm thinking it requires a different strategy anyway, because it's not served at the class of chain restaurants we're looking at. San Antonio at 2:45am has a 24-hour Denny's, but I'm not sure I would want to confront at 6am the eggs-over-easy portion of a Grand Slam that was cooked at 2:30am. Maybe breakfast has to be a buffet a la Best Western or Fairfield. Let's forget the make-your-own waffle machine, though; the combination of batter, hot iron, and UP roadbed quality isn't a pretty picture.
The appeal of the Chili's/Applebee's strategy is that the price/performance is attractive in the restaurants, so maybe it would be only a little less so on the train. But the odds seem to be against it: in the west, anyway, the rail routes are too remote, and there's a good chance the restaurants won't be willing to change their fine-tuned food-prep operations to facilitate delayed serving, or that the changes will ruin the price/performance.
That leads us back to SkyChef, or Xanterra. While physical plant may account for some of the problems with NPS outsourcing, it doesn't explain why the coffee machines in the convenience store in Yosemite (DNC is the concessionaire) were all out of service, or why there was only one kind of sandwich stocked in the cooler whose shelf tags showed it was meant for a half dozen, or why the veggie meals at the Grand Canyon had run out a year in advance. My belief is that advocates of the free market get confused about what makes it work well (when it does.) The magic isn't in "private" vs "public"; the magic is in "choice" vs "no choice". If I ran the NPS, I would make sure that the hotels and restaurants at the Grand Canyon were split among at least two different concessioners.
If I were asked to outsource Amtrak food service, I would at least make sure the lounge food and the diner food came from different vendors, and that the lounge vendor was encouraged to offer some menu items that could plausibly compete with the simpler diner offerings. Then I'd hope to get bids from somebody who never operated in a national park. :-)
ecoli Sam1 Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses. I thought I'd check the veracity of the last sentence of that paragraph. The financial press releases from American Airlines are available at http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=quarterlyearnings. They show annual losses for 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012, at which point American declared bankruptcy and (probably thanks to the ability to apply cramdowns to its vendors, creditors, and employees courtesy of the bankruptcy laws) started showing a profit. (For one of those years, the press release trumpets an annual "net profit" excluding "special items" but a loss overall. I'm going to be a curmudgeon and say that a loss is a loss.) Yet American Airlines is still around, and is still considered valuable enough that US Airways is fighting the US Justice department in court to be allowed to merge with American. So I would say that contrary to the assertion above, an established business does get 5 years to turn around its losses. I don't contend this should make us happy that Amtrak's timeline is so long, just that there's a disconnect between reality and slogans about the invariable wonderfulness of private corporations.
I thought I'd check the veracity of the last sentence of that paragraph. The financial press releases from American Airlines are available at http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=quarterlyearnings. They show annual losses for 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012, at which point American declared bankruptcy and (probably thanks to the ability to apply cramdowns to its vendors, creditors, and employees courtesy of the bankruptcy laws) started showing a profit. (For one of those years, the press release trumpets an annual "net profit" excluding "special items" but a loss overall. I'm going to be a curmudgeon and say that a loss is a loss.)
Yet American Airlines is still around, and is still considered valuable enough that US Airways is fighting the US Justice department in court to be allowed to merge with American. So I would say that contrary to the assertion above, an established business does get 5 years to turn around its losses.
I don't contend this should make us happy that Amtrak's timeline is so long, just that there's a disconnect between reality and slogans about the invariable wonderfulness of private corporations.
The beauty of the competitive market place lies in the reality that businesses that continually stuff it up go belly up, and society stops wasting resources on them. It is what Joseph Schumpeter called creative destruction. The business graveyard is full of examples, including Eastern Airlines, Northeastern Airlines, People Air Express, etc. The list goes on and on. On the other hand, once a government agency or activity is locked in to place, getting rid of it is nearly impossible. It continually drains taxpayer dollars.
blue streak 1 There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain passengers ? That includes the NEC ? What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed to cover those losses ? SAM1 ?
There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain passengers ? That includes the NEC ? What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed to cover those losses ?
SAM1 ?
Without access to Amtrak's books, as well as its incremental pricing and costing models, which probably came from a consultant, it is impossible to know what impact pricing on-board meals to cover their full cost would have on passengers.
Some people might not travel by train if the price of on-board food is perceived to be too high. However, a significant percentage of the dining car patrons appear to be from the sleepers. The cost of their meal is baked into their first class ticket. They don't know how much meals are costing them and, therefore, as long as the price (cost) of the meals is included in the first class ticket, increasing it may have little if any impact on them.
ecoli"this is so straightforward and obviously superior that those guys at Amtrak must be idiots for not having done it years ago".
They are not idiots. But, what they are doing isn't working well - and they have little incentive to do anything different. But, why should that be an excuse for us to not demand better...in every way.
I'm not saying I have all the answers and every detail nailed. Far from it. But, it's not my job to do their job. It's their job. We just need to demand that they do it! (or our trains might finish vanishing)
Deggesty Nice pictures that show the differences in the salads, Don. The Amtrak picture reminded that even if you do not get a large salad, you should have quite of variety of Paul Newman's salad dressings to choose from. Does any other eatery provide such a variety?
Nice pictures that show the differences in the salads, Don. The Amtrak picture reminded that even if you do not get a large salad, you should have quite of variety of Paul Newman's salad dressings to choose from. Does any other eatery provide such a variety?
Most fast food joints have 6 or more varieties on the menu. If memory serves, Amtrak has some variety - pretty much the standards...
ecoliEverywhere?
El Paso would work.
ecoliMaybe you can pay Applebee's to package everything specially so the hot stuff goes into the fridge on the train and gets reheated later, and the dinners get reassembled by Amtrak.
Sure, why not? Why not leave it to the provider to figure it out?
ecoliSome time ago, you were offering us visions of sleeper service by Hilton or Cunard if Amtrak would simply outsource it.
For what the fares are, it should be close, no? Is Amtrak providing that? You don't paint a very rosy picture with your own remarks. In fact, you make is seem that Amtrak is failing the food service game - they are doing you the favor serving you. I always wondered where the PC charm school graduates went.
Is any of this simple. Heck no. What Amtrak does every day is not simple. So, "not simple" is a good excuse for "lousy product"? Building automobiles is not simple. Anyone want a Yugo? (BTW, I have it first hand we got the "good" ones!)
If you give the provider some incentive to "do good", you might just get good.
The Xanterra analogy is interesting. I have had mixed experience. The campground they ran at the Grand Canyon was run-down, but functional - that in 2004. I don't know if they would or even could improve it or if they were just the operator. I wonder if most of the ills of NP lodging are the result of budget woes - lack of capital. Xanterra doesn't own them.
The Gift Shop and Cafeteria they ran in RNMP was first rate, however.
Johnny
oltmannd The point is, if the food on Amtrak isn't quite up to mass market restaurant quality, why not just get the food from them? They are everywhere!
The point is, if the food on Amtrak isn't quite up to mass market restaurant quality, why not just get the food from them? They are everywhere!
Sam1 Muralist0221 In 45 years of flying, have had one good meal on airlines, even during the "golden age" of flight (old Frontier). Feel Amtrak foor is 6-7 on a scales of 10. Then. of course, there's the great Southwest with its offering of 30 peanuts. Southwest figured it out. Most people don't want an airplane meal; they want low fares and frequent service. Peanuts will do just fine. Southwest has turned a profit nearly every year since its inception. Amtrak offers meals of dubious quality served up by a wait staff that in too many instances has an attitude problem. Since its inception, which was around the time that Southwest lifted off, it has lost more than $40 billion when adjusted for constant dollars.
Muralist0221 In 45 years of flying, have had one good meal on airlines, even during the "golden age" of flight (old Frontier). Feel Amtrak foor is 6-7 on a scales of 10. Then. of course, there's the great Southwest with its offering of 30 peanuts.
In 45 years of flying, have had one good meal on airlines, even during the "golden age" of flight (old Frontier). Feel Amtrak foor is 6-7 on a scales of 10. Then. of course, there's the great Southwest with its offering of 30 peanuts.
Southwest figured it out. Most people don't want an airplane meal; they want low fares and frequent service. Peanuts will do just fine. Southwest has turned a profit nearly every year since its inception.
Amtrak offers meals of dubious quality served up by a wait staff that in too many instances has an attitude problem. Since its inception, which was around the time that Southwest lifted off, it has lost more than $40 billion when adjusted for constant dollars.
I dare you to go via Amtrak from LA to Chicago on 30 peanuts
Have fun with your trains
oltmanndTell me about the salad....
Amtrak:
Chic-fil-A
McDonalds
Amtrak has a nicer bowl....that's it.
McDonald's is on their dollar menu - and also serves "Newman's Own" salad dressing in the same packets.
The issue should revolve more around the kind of food service that the market demands. Many in the advocacy community demand no less than a full-service dining car with white linen tablecloths, attentive and obsequious waiters and a fully-equipped kitchen. This kind of operation appears to always have been a red-ink entry, even in the pre-Amtrak era. After years of the type of food service that used to be provided by the airlines, the market no longer expects a dining experience comparable to a two or three star restaurant. Amtrak needs to address the needs of the market in terms of what it wants and expects, which is probably not a full-service dining car. Snack bars and cafeteria-type arrangements may be better attuned to current needs for food service.
More to the point, how would you compair your great steak with whatever you ate first class on Acela?
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