OK Schlimm, how much time do you suggest?
Tom
The idea that you are allowing 2 hrs per meal seating sounds indefensible. It is a train, not the Ritz.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Dixie Flyer:
I can't address the dollar amounts you cite. Your guess is as good as mine.
You suggest 300-400 people in 5 seatings. Effectively, each Superliner diner has 64 usable seats. Sometimes we can get 100% use, but we often have parties of 3 with no single parties to match. Also, some passengers are large, and it's not reasonable to make somebody sit next to them. I'm not trying to be judgmental here. It's simply a fact. So we often have to live with a couple empty seats. That means a dinner seating of 60 people is reasonable, unless part of the car is being used for lounge service, in which case the capacity is less. Three hundred people can be crowded into one Superliner diner in 5 crowded seatings. Three hundred sixty can be handled in six crowded seatings. Four hundred would require a seventh seating. How long will each seating take? We have found that you have to allow 2 hours per seating on the Auto Train. Even then, a few people feel that we are rushing them. So we can theoretically get through the seven seatings in 14 hours, presuming the kitchen crew and the service crew don't take any breaks. Presumably, the seven dinner seatings would be scheduled 12 noon to 2 pm; 2 pm to 4 pm; 4pm to 6pm; 6pm to 8pm; 8 pm to 10 pm; 10 pm to 12 midnight; and 12 midnight to 2 am. Then when do we start breakfast and who has the energy to serve it? I doubt that the storage space would permit us to carry enough food to do this a second time, and I'm also sure the diner would run out of water long before the last seating was completed, especially if it is necessary to wash dishes, flatwear, and cooking utensils/pots/pans.
"So," as General Longstreet said of general Pickett's chances, "it is mathematical after all." (The Killer Angels, by Michael Shaara, July 3, part 2).
Maybe those who do use credit or debit cards could purchase an Amtrak gift card for diner and lounge services. Passengers like me who entrain at un-manned stations could maybe get their card by mail or by prepaying the conductor could issue the card.
I kind of like the cruise ship (auto-train) concept where your meals are included in your ticket price. The buffet is fine for everyone on the boat and if you want more in a private sit down dining room you can pay extra. A compromise is menu prices like a Denny's, Shoney's, IHOP etc so those that eat in the diner contribute more than those who don't eat or only have a sandwich from the lounge. Maybe coach passengers would get meal coupons only if their trip is over 3-4 hours. Amtrak carried 33 million passengers so if we all paid $3 each the dining defecit would be paid. Obviously that means most coach passengers would use the diner so the diner would need a larger crew which will increase costs. But think a superliner diner was designed to serve 3-400 people at 5 settings and my traveling observation is most coach passengers are driven away by the current high prices.
It seems to me coach fares should be 1 or 2 cents per mile higher than a Greyhound Bus fare to justify that a train offers more leg room, meal and lounge service on the go and baggage service. That's just how it is. The bus serves as the most economical base choice by free enterprise which is fine. The trains cost more for less spartan service. Finally you say to Congress the passengers will pay for these amenities and not the taxpayers.
So the corridor rider is the one who probally is not getting a very good deal on this I say:
If you ride a 100 miles and pay a $2.00 service charge you do get more leg room than a bus and there is a cafe-lounge care available. If you ride 300 miles I might take the $6.00 surcharge and give you a $4.00 discount in the cafe and funnel the rest in the service pool. The cafe balance is no worst than it was and you get a burger, chips and coke for $7.00 instead of $11.00 (what I paid a year ago).
Quoting ACY: "I'm kind of curious. If you and others didn't think we were responsible for taking on stock, stowing it away, and setting up our cars, who did you guys think did these things? I suspect you just never thought about it. That's not a real criticism; there are lots of things we all take for granted every day."
The same thought applies to the sleeping car attendants; some posters on another thread have thought that when a train reaches its terminal someone boards and gets the rooms ready for the next trip, not realizing that the attendant must have each room ready with the berths ready to be put into use. On my part, when getting off at a way station in the evening, I have invited the attendant to go ahead and change the linens and blankets so that this will not have to be done between my getting off and the next occupant's boarding.
As to a cashless system, it certainly would remove the possibility of theft--except for cash left as tips. When I order wine with my dinner, I add the tip for the meal to the credit card charge; I wonder how this will work out if no one may pay cash for a meal--will Amtrak add the amount of the charged tips to the paychecks? (Charging tips reduces, somewhat, the amount of cash I have to carry while traveling.)
I have yet to travel on Auto Train; since I live in Utah, I do not see myself driving east to ride it, though I would like to ride it. I could do what David P. Morgan did soon after the first Auto Train was inaugurated--he rented a car in Virginia, took it to Florida by train, and turned it in in Florida, to the amazement of the car rental agent at seeing so few miles on the odometer!
Johnny
Shortly after the Superliner II diners were delivered in the 1990's (note: about 20 years ago), table #9 was removed to make space for some kind of installation of a POS system. After table #9 was gone & replaced with cabinets, somebody decided the proposed POS system wouldn't work & the project was abandoned or put on hold. In the interim, we have found those cabinets very useful for storage, even though the shape and dimensions of the resulting storage space, and the cabinet doors, are a bit odd.
I'm sure an effective POS system would help, but would it be enough to offset the overhead costs I have described? Has any railroad ever really made a profit on dining car service? I've always understood it was traditionally considered an essential part of serving the needs of the customer and, as such, was not intended or expected to make a profit on its own. I'm sure we can find ways to save some money, but actually making a profit, or even covering all expenses through meal sales, may be "A Bridge Too Far".
It's quite possible that a fair number of Amtrak's passengers are not in the habit of putting everything on the plastic and prefer to pay cash. It may be viewed as an archaic and annoying habit but it's a good way of avoiding debt and outrageous interest rates.
ecoli Dakguy201 To simplify the task of selling foods and beverages, many airlines have gone to a policy of accepting credit cards exclusively -- no cash sales. This simplifies the task of charging the customer as well as eliminating the security/accounting/currency conversion problems inherent in having a cash change fund. Wouldn't Amtrak be better off by adopting such a system? They have promised to test a "cashless" system in 2014: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/196/210/Amtrak-Commits-End-Food-Beverage-Losses-ATK-13-115.pdf
Dakguy201 To simplify the task of selling foods and beverages, many airlines have gone to a policy of accepting credit cards exclusively -- no cash sales. This simplifies the task of charging the customer as well as eliminating the security/accounting/currency conversion problems inherent in having a cash change fund. Wouldn't Amtrak be better off by adopting such a system?
To simplify the task of selling foods and beverages, many airlines have gone to a policy of accepting credit cards exclusively -- no cash sales. This simplifies the task of charging the customer as well as eliminating the security/accounting/currency conversion problems inherent in having a cash change fund.
Wouldn't Amtrak be better off by adopting such a system?
They have promised to test a "cashless" system in 2014:
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/196/210/Amtrak-Commits-End-Food-Beverage-Losses-ATK-13-115.pdf
According to the announcement, Amtrak is using POS on Acela Express and some of the California trains. An interesting question, from my perspective, is why has it taken Amtrak so long to implement this proven payment technology?
This was one of the IG's recommendations in its report on food and beverage sales fraud. Whether Amtrak moves forward with it is problematic. But hey! They got five years to get their act together so saith Boardman! So what's the rush?
I understand from a subsequent post that Amtrak will test a POS payment system across the system in 2014. We'll see.
I can't address questions about the old Auto train under Mr. Garfield. But don't forget, they went bust. Whatever they did probably wasn't any more cost effective than what we do. I think they also had a lot of their meals catered (by Marriott, I think). I've been told we saved money because we assumed the responsibilities that Marriott had previously assumed, and Marriott's profits reverted to Amtrak. Several years later, Amtrak's commissary functions were contracted out, and they still are. I honestly have no idea which is the more cost effective model. All the old veterans of the private Auto Train are retired, I think, so there's nobody left that I can ask about that service. I started working on the Auto train in September, 1987, a couple years after Amtrak restarted the service. I'm sure Amtrak has always done it this way.
I'm kind of curious. If you and others didn't think we were responsible for taking on stock, stowing it away, and setting up our cars, who did you guys think did these things? I suspect you just never thought about it. That's not a real criticism; there are lots of things we all take for granted every day.
The responsibility of the LSAD (and his or her staff) to maintain a careful accounting is something a lot of folks seem not to understand. If there are shortages, they MUST be paid for. Guess who pays? Many years ago I was assigned to work the ex-GN "Great Dome" lounge. We were coming north. I was tired and got careless and left my cash unattended. Somebody swiped over 400 bucks and I had to make up the difference out of my own pocket. People who steal the attendant's money are not stealing from Amtrak. They are stealing from the attendant.
This being the case, you can probably forget about any scheme wherein an LSAD turns over stock to another LSAD without BOTH LSAD's being present to inventory whatever stock is being turned over. And don't forget, this takes some time to do. It can't be a quick "Hellohowareyouhaveanicetripgoodbye".
Now, if Amtrak institutes a whole new accounting system, it might be possible to do things differently. But who knows what form that new system will take? Who knows whether it will be better, or if it would allow some of the suggested changes? I have no idea what the chances are; I'm not a betting man.
Tom,
Thanks, I enjoyed hearing the Auto Train schedule from a operations standpoint and you clearly put a lot of time into composing a good explanation. I am on the infrastructure side of transportation but did a quick intern with rail freight operations. Has the schedule always been such where the OBS crew performs a lot of work before and after arrival even back into the days of Auto-Train Corp? Seems like a good use of employes that are already there.
As you pointed out the occasional Auto Train late arrivals and city-time mismatches would probably jinx any idea of making the end point crew base-hotel-return trip idea work.
Appart from the Auto Train, conceivably on trains like the Crescent say between Atlanta-Washington the through OBS staff might be supplemented with a crew base about five hours out from the arrival cities (maybe Lynchburg and Greenville), such that they started a day at 4:00 AM worked till 11 AM (schedule change to old pre-lunch arrival time into NYC) got off, rested, got back on, and then worked back to 11 PM. Those crew members are home every night, with a full day or two off between, and several sleeper spaces ($300-$400 a room a night) in the Viewliner are freed up for revenue generation. South of there crews would exchange in a short stop when the trains pass each other, having started from New Orleans and Anniston.
Tom, I was not thinking when I wrote of two days on; thanks for making it clear to all.
As to the IC train crews, the actual time spent working depended upon the assignment, with the Panama and the City having less time on board that the Louisiane-Creole assignment, and much less than the Southern Express-Louisiane assignment. And, the time spent in Canton or New Orleans varied quite a bit.
Johnny ---
I just wrote a pretty good explanation, then the computer ate it. It seems to have vanished in the ether. I'm your basic Luddite, it you didn't guess. Anyway, let's try again.
It's not a 4-day rotation. It's 5 days. Each crew has all the service people the train needs. The schedule is 3 days on; 2 off. We depart home on day 1; arrive Sanford and turn around on day 2, then start back for Lorton late on day 2, arriving in Lorton in the morning on day 3. Then we get 2 days off, then we do it again. A 5 day rotation means it takes 5 full crews to cover the schedule, plus an extra board to cover for sickness, vacations, etc. I'm a member of Crew 5 & I generally work with the same people all the time. This means the same sleeper attendants (Don't call them Porters!), coach attendants (who double as servers in the coach diner), lounge attendants, chefs, Lead Service Attendants, etc. All-night positions are covered by the coach attendants. Jobs are bid twice a year. We can bid on the job we want, with seniority being the coin of the realm. Many years ago I worked on the extra board, then worked up from the less desirable jobs (like the all-night jobs) and now I can pretty much get my first choice when we bid. Some of the younger folks have asked me, "Hey Tom, when are you going to retire so I can move up in seniority?" Subtle, eh? Over the years I've also worked the sleepers. You haven't lived till you've made 43 beds on a southbound Superliner, then made the same 43 beds northbound the next night. This is in addition to the meals you have to serve in the rooms for passengers who aren't able to make it to the diner. Remember, we serve A LOT of elderly snowbirds.
Day 3 may seem like light duty because there aren't as many hours worked, but remember that it follows a very busy Day 1, and a very busy day 2 (usually about 12 hours and 13 - 14 hours respectively), with no sleep/rest period longer than about 6 hours. My friends know not to call me when I get home on Day 3. If I feel like going out for a meal at Bob Evans', I'LL CALL THEM. Lead Service Attendants in the diners and lounges work more hours on Day 3 because they have to stay and go over the paper work and turn their remaining stock over to the person who is taking their place for the next southbound run. Assuming an on time train, each of us usually racks up a little under 30 hours for each round trip.
I can't address the work schedules of the folks who worked the trains you referenced because I don't know enough about the schedules, the work rules in operation at the time, etc. You mentioned Conductors' schedules, and that's a whole 'nother thing. T&E (Train & Engine) Crews are covered by the Federal Hours Of Service Law, so they can't work over 12 hours at a time no matter what. O.B.S. crews are not covered by that law because we don't have a direct role in operating the train over the rails. There is no legal limit to the number of hours we can be required to work continuously, and no legal minimum amount of rest between shifts. This gets interesting and extremely challenging when the train is extremely late. Thank goodness, that's not too frequent.
Maybe this seems like complaining. In the 1970's, I lived in Chicago and had the great privilege of seeing & hearing Steve Goodman perform many times. One of his songs was called THIS HOTEL ROOM. He would introduce it by saying it's not a complaint about being on the road and sleeping in a strange motel every night. He said it's a privilege to be able to travel and perform for appreciative audiences, and the hotel-hopping was just something that came along with that. That's the same thing I'm doing here. I dearly love my fellow crew members and I really enjoy most of the passengers. I always say 95% of the passengers are wonderful people. We see the same faces year after year. About 3 to 5% of the passengers have problems that I don't know anything about: divorces; death or illness in the family; financial or legal trouble; problem kids -- you name it. Those things affect the way they behave & I know better than to take it personally. Then there's the other group, generally less than 1%, who were put on earth because God has a peculiar sense of humor.
But the fact is, the schedule can be brutal, and I'm not so young any more. Soon I'll be leaving to turn it over to the next generation.
Thanks, Tom, for the summary of a work tour for the dining car staff. Are the car attendants on the same schedule as you are--two days on and two days off?
Certainly, few of us who are not directly involved in the work know all the requirements and the limitations of your work.
Incidentally, I was in Florence one evening last month, waiting for #98 when the southbound Auto Train came in. At first, I did not realize what it was, and did not note the arrival time, and I also did not note the departure time, which was before #98 came in, a few minutes late.
Your description of your schedule reminded me of the passenger train crews on the IC between Canton, Mississippi and New Orleans, when the IC had four trains each way. They changed in McComb, Mississippi, and each crew would be gone for twenty-four hours, and have one day off before going out again. Except for the City of New Orleans, the crews changed southbound, and all ran about 400 miles before getting home. Incidentally, the conductors on the Panama Limited were brothers, so unless one took a trip off, they saw one another only when relieving one another. The City crews worked that train only; the other assignments were Southern Express southbound and Louisiane northbound, and Louisiane southbound and Creole northbound. The engine crews always in changed in McComb, so each had a run of about 100 miles;. I never did learn their schedule.
V.Payne:
Another way to look at is to simply remember that an A-T diner crew's sleep period is roughly from Florence, SC to Nahunta GA southbound; but northbound it's from somewhere north of Charleston SC to about Rocky Mount or Weldon, NC. There's no location where we could get off, go to a hotel, and get on a return train in time to serve breakfast. And again, what happens if one train or the other is late? Under the current scheme, we're on board and available no matter whether the train is late late or not. Also, CSX doesn't want us to stop for anything at any location other than the service stop in Florence, unless the DS says so. They wouldn't want to add a scheduled stop or two to put the dining car crew on or off.
Hello, V.Payne:
I'll have to think about this one. At first thought, I think it would mean even less sleep than we currently get (and that's not much) or way too much time wasted at the rest location. Assuming 3 dinner seatings on a full southbound train, it would mean finishing the last seating at 11:00, getting off the train at Florence SC around 11:30 PM, then catching a van to a hotel, checking in, getting to the room, and getting to bed around 12:00, assuming I don't take the time for a shower. Then what would I do in the morning? I couldn't catch the northbound train because it passed Florence around 1:00-1:30 AM, while I was sleeping. What if the train is late? I'd sit around on the train from 11:00 PM till arrival at the rest point (for argument's sake, let's say 3:30 AM). In any case, who works breakfast on the northbound trip? And after I do the evening shift described, when do I work again? Also, there is no "very late evening arrival" on the Auto Train unless we are obscenely late. As a veteran of Hurricanes Fran, Hugo, Danny, and others, I can tell you that kind of lateness is no fun for us or the passengers.
Here's how it works: There are 5 onboard service (o.b.s.) crews, and each one spends 3 calendar days on the road, with 2 days off between trips. All are based at the north end. Shifts start at different times, depending on the job. In general, everybody reports between 11:00 AM and 1:00PM. Crew 1 picks up the train from Crew 4 at Lorton while the train is being serviced by the Mechanical & Cleaning crew. Crew 4 has done an inventory before they went off duty, and has ordered the supplies Crew 1 will need, based on ridership estimates. The Commissary truck arrives with the order and the crew takes on the stock and sets up the train: 3 dining cars with 2 working kitchens; 2 lounges; 4 coaches; and 6 sleepers, 2 of which are unique to the train (no economy rooms upstairs; ten bedrooms instead) The sleeper attendants have rooms in their own cars, but the chefs, food specialists, lounge attendants, wait staff, and coach attendants have rooms in the Crew car. It may be the only Amtrak train where the entire transition sleeper is needed for the o.b.s.crew. Set-up activity is interrupted at 1:00 for a general crew briefing to discuss safety and any necessary issues. This usually takes 30 minutes or so.
Setup of the train continues. Boarding of passengers begins at 2:30 and is usually concluded by about 3:00 - 3:15 or so when doors are secured. The train is assembled with auto carriers on the rear. Maximum length is 50 units (2 P40's; 16 passenger cars, and 32 auto carriers). We don't always have that many auto carriers, but we often approach that length.
Late afternoon, cooking begins in the diners. First dinner seating is at 5:00; second is at 7:00; and third is at 9:00. We can usually finish about 11:00 PM and go to the crew car for rest. That's 10 - 12 hours on duty. We eat whenever we get the chance.
Train arrives Florence around 11:30 and the Lorton - Florence T&E crew is replaced with a Florence - Sanford T&E crew. Hopefully, I'm asleep by then, but there are always SOME members of the crew available for passenger needs. Engines refueled; diner water tanks replenished; trash removed; service animals walked; smokers get to take a smoke break IF CSX puts us on a station track where it's safe (not always).
5:00 AM on Day 2: Get up & have the diner ready to begin breakfast service at 6:00. I'm often up before 5:00. Serve continuously until around 8:00 - 8:30, then prepare for arrival. Try to have everything put away before the cleaning crew boards. The train often arrives early. 8:00 isn't unusual. This can be a problem (we don't make passenger stops along the way, so we never have to hold at a station waiting for time).
Assuming an on time arrival (nominally 9:30) on Day 2, we can be released upon arrival UNLESS we have to cut out a car for routine (or unexpected) maintenance work. If that happens, the time needed to swap all contents of the car is taken out of our layover time. With all crew members pitching in, we can usually accomplish this in a half hour to 45 minutes.
We're free till 2:00 PM. Time for a shower, a shave, maybe a nap, and maybe a meal cooked by somebody else.
Then we report back at 2:00 and do the same thing on the return trip. We leave with a fresh T&E crew, but at Florence SC, there is a T&E crew change, and Crew 1 picks up the T&E crew they started out with, and arrives home on the morning of Day 3, after finishing breakfast service. Note that this schedule never has a full 8-hour uninterrupted rest period for o.b.s. personnel. That is legal because the Federal Hours OF Service Law applies only to operating employees, and not to the o.b.s. staff, who do not operate the train.
While Crew 1 is in Sanford, Crew 2 is picking the train up from Crew 5 in Lorton. Crew 1 makes out an order for Crew 3, who will pick up the consist and repeat the process. Crew 1 is off for 2 calendar days, and will pick up from Crew 4 when they get back from their next trip.
Since the diner crew is responsible for every bit of stock in their inventory, and since that stock must be inventoried each time there is a crew change, it is not practical to change diner crews enroute. We spend enough time checking inventory as it is.
So it's not as simple as it may seem. If you have a good idea, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure Amtrak would too. But there are a lot more factors at work than most casual observers realize.
Hope this was instructive. Sorry it took so much space, but anything less wouldn't have given a clear picture.
Just curious in relation to the Auto Train, or any overnight schedule that roughly mirrors itself in each direction, could you keep the crew bases or each end and have a point where the dinning crew got off very late at night to go to a hotel, to reboard very early in the morning? It would require a dedicated crew van or two, but one of the crew could be paid to drive it with a supplement. The savings from crew sleeper dorm space sold to passengers would offset the hotel bill quite substaintially.
The alternative would be to move the crew bases so that you got on very early in the morning, worked till arrival serving breakfast, took a break, helped clean and turn, took a break, started dinner preparations, and then worked back to a very late evening arrival back at the home base. It would also require a crew van so the crew could catch a late train at another station. The paid hours would pile up pretty quickly such that only three trips a week would be full employment.
Well, NKP Guy, I sure can't answer that one. Those decisions would probably be made by someone at the Amtrak test kitchen in Wilmington. I don't think we've ever had the Lobster Newburgh on my train. I'd probably remember if we had, because I'm allergic to Lobster. I could serve it, but you don't want to know the consequences if I ate it! It's a minor inconvenience. Better to be allergic to the expensive stuff. I really feel sorry for the folks who can't tolerate wheat or dairy products. They have it rough!
As for my coworkers, they're like everybody else. Not necessarily perfect, but mostly nice, down-to-earth folks who are just trying to do a good job, sometimes under difficult conditions. It's easy to respect people who deserve respect.
ACY: I like the way you are proud of your colleagues in the dining car, and I especially appreciate your kind words about the chefs cooking those mouth-watering steaks at 79 mph. Whenever I eat in The Lake Shore Limited's dining cars I go out of my way to say a kind word to the chefs as well as you waiters. I hope you know how much all your efforts and services are appreciated.
Now, when are those trains on the Water Level Route again going to serve Lobster Newburgh?
Terrific cookbook. But I see that in my transition period when I began by avoiding pork and shellfiish products but still ate non-Kosher meat, that I was fooled when I had chicken on PRR diners, even on the Senator between NY and Boston, because the stuffing and gravy they used did have ham or bacon elements. Didn't know that and enjoyed the chicken. Too late to worry now. (PRR dining car crew worked the Senator, NYNH&H the Colonial.)
Oltmannd:
Those railroad cookbooks are neat, & it's fun to try to replicate the recipes at home. Following a recipe may be a skill, but grilling Dave's steak to perfection at 70 mph or more is an art. I can't do it, but we've got Amtrak chefs who can.
...the PRR cookbook is on line, here: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/PRRDiningCarDept_CookingInstructions.pdf
It's fun to peruse.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
ecoliI thought it relevant to say that my experience of Lufthansa was different from his.
And your experiences on Amtrak different from mine....
Good memories, Dave. As for me, I'll never forget the baked apple dessert on the old B&O Capitol Limited.
I hope that when you retire and get experience in riding Amtrak trains, that you will "make the necessary noise" to try to get some of your better ideas implemented, without fear of "not using the chain of command." (Yes, all railroads have similarities to the military.)
Further comment on Lufthansa. My South African friends complained about the food and called it The Luftwhaff, but they continued to use it on their European trips because of a low fare.
Kosher cooking of meat is of course a fine art. I don't eat meat, but at the Yeshiva and as a guest in Rabbis' homes with their wives excellent cooks I see chicken and shnitzel and chopped liver with onions and turkey and kreplach, dough pastry with groung meat filling, etc. Steak is not the only way to prepare meat by a long shot.
In my long distance riding Amtrak days, I would vary the ordered Kosher meal: Kosher fish, Kosher strict vegetarian, Kosher eggs, Kosher dairy. Never went hungry and never was boared. All seemed good quality to me . But I always made an exception for the Rio Grande Zephyr and never asked Leonard Bernstein to have a Kosher meal on that train. That train was far too close to my heart to not sample its regular fine cuisine. I always had Rocky Mountain Trout for dinner, French Toast and cereal for breakfast, and I think either a pasta and tomato sauce or a Welsh Rarrebit lunch.
It was not tough giving up riding or driving on the Sabbath (Saturday). Or seeing movies on that day or handling money. What was really felt as a hardship was giving up the steak dinner on the Broadway Limited. That was the only real hardship.
schlimm CMStPnPYour bringing up an example of the cheapest fare on Lufhansa in which your not paying for the meal but it is given to you for free..............how is this even on the same level as the rest of the discussion here? I am not at all sure the report from "ecoli" is factual. I fly Lufthansa usually 3-4 RT's annually, on coach and i have never been served a meal remotely like the one he referenced.
CMStPnPYour bringing up an example of the cheapest fare on Lufhansa in which your not paying for the meal but it is given to you for free..............how is this even on the same level as the rest of the discussion here?
I am not at all sure the report from "ecoli" is factual. I fly Lufthansa usually 3-4 RT's annually, on coach and i have never been served a meal remotely like the one he referenced.
I could likewise say that I am not at all sure your statement is factual. But rather than question each other's integrity, wouldn't it be more civil to agree that our experiences have been different, and that we simply disagree?
As for the comparison between Amtrak and Lufthansa, I offered it as a response to a statement by oltmannd ("For starters, don't cook on the train! It reduces the throughput in the diner as people have to sit and wait for their meal to be cooked, instead of being served. The meals aren't any better than what you get at Applebees, and I've had food served to me on the train that's been tepid. I'd be hard pressed to say that the meals I've had on the CZ, Autotrain and Crescent were much better than the ones I've had on Lufthansa.") I thought it relevant to say that my experience of Lufthansa was different from his.
Dave ---
Absolutely! As I said, I'll be retiring in a few months, so I wouldn't be directly affected by the staff reductions implicit in many of these comments. But I hope to do more Amtrak traveling after I retire. Also, I have a lot of very hard working friends who would be affected.
But none of this is free. There are no free meals on airlines, buses, cruise ships, or anywhere else. Our Auto Train passengers may not pay a separate bill for their dinner, but the cost is included in the price of their ticket. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
If you know people who regularly fly or even just have flown once on El Al, which is the international carrier I used most often, I think you may hear complaints about crowding, not enough leg room for a very tall person, etc, noisy chidren, etc., but never about the food. It has always been delicious for me, regardless of which class i had. I would say the same about South African Airlines, and I also had good experiences with Air France and Delta's international flights, and Hungarian Airlines, and I would say reasonably good experience with old TWA, British Airways and its predicessor BOAC. I won't mention which carrier I used to and from Caracas, and I did not choose the airline, and it was not the "local national flag". I have heard that the differences between food services on Lufthansa in the different classes are greater than they are on most airlines, but I never have flown on Lufthansa. (My South African friends always called it the Luftwaff, and also complained about the meals they had when they flew on it, coach class.)
Regarding Kosher passengers opting at the last moment for a non-Kosher steak. I can say with certainty that a Kosher steak is less tastey than a non-Kosher one. The blood is drained from Kosher meat. That is a requirement, an Observant Jew is not allowed to drink blood of any type. But I am also a vegetarian. And Kosher fish is just as appatizing and tastey as non-Kosher fish. This is true of eggs and just about everything else. Indeed, one doesn't have to (or didn't have to) order in advance to be assured of Tropicana orange juice and Philadelphia bagels in Amtrak cafe cars, and those have the OU (Orthodox Union) label for Kosher certification. So, incidenally do a lot of Scotch wiskeys and Bourbons! (My health regimine at 81 prevents me from enjoying that fact, however..)
If traditional dining service can be kept on Long Distance trains, I am all for it. But I would not wish to see the end of LD service simply because food costs cannot be controled, or for that reason along with others.
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