pocovalleyI could not disagree more. My wife and I have travelled Amtrak in sleepers for many years, and have always eaten in the dining car. I always order the steak on the first night and have gotten great meals.
Tell me about the salad....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I could not disagree more. My wife and I have travelled Amtrak in sleepers for many years, and have always eaten in the dining car. I always order the steak on the first night and have gotten great meals. My only complaint is that all of the trains in the country have the same menu. After going from New York to the west coast, one can get tired of the same menu every night. The desserts have always been great. Ice cream does melt you know. If it is hard now, wait five minutes.
Poco Valley
ecoliI flew Lufthansa in coach last month, and the meal I remember centered on a dish full of gravy. From beneath the waves of gravy I fished out a white mass of chicken or pork (it was advertised as chicken, so I'll assume that was true) and a handful of green beans. In one corner was another mass, the color of the chicken but the consistency of the gravy, which I decided must be mashed potatoes. The dessert was a microscopic square of some sort of cobbler, and although the identity of the fruit was ambiguous, it might have been tasty had it only contained some trace of sugar.
Sounds like the meal I had on British Air. The Lufthansa meal was a cut above. Could be the source of meal varies from hub to hub.
ecoliBy contrast, on the Coast Starlight a year and a half ago I had a steak indistinguishable in quality (to me) from one I would get at a shopping-mall-chain steak restaurant, plus some artisanal dessert pastries to die for.
I've never had a steak on Amtrak as good as the small filet from Outback or Longhorn. The dinner salad Amtrak serves is pretty poor - not even up to fast food quality.
The point is, if the food on Amtrak isn't quite up to mass market restaurant quality, why not just get the food from them? They are everywhere!
It's is quite easy to find out what differences there are between sleeper and coach class travelers on Auto Train. Go to Amtrak's site, go to Meals and Dining under Rider's Guide, then to Meal Choices and Menus at a Glance under Meal Offerings and Menus, and you will find a dinner menu for coach class and a dinner menu for sleeping car class. The traveler in each class pays for his meal when he buys his ticket. I do not know what difference there may be in the breakfasts offered.
Johnny
oltmannd blue streak 1 Do the coach passengers pay for meals on Auto train ? I don't think so, but they don't get the "free" wine and cheese after boarding! Autotrain typically runs three diners. Two for coach and one for first class. But, I think I see your point. Since food is "required" on Autotrain, they probably have high productivity of the labor force in the diners.
blue streak 1 Do the coach passengers pay for meals on Auto train ?
But, I think I see your point. Since food is "required" on Autotrain, they probably have high productivity of the labor force in the diners.
oltmannd I'd be hard pressed to say that the meals I've had on the CZ, Autotrain and Crescent were much better than the ones I've had on Lufthansa.
I'd be hard pressed to say that the meals I've had on the CZ, Autotrain and Crescent were much better than the ones I've had on Lufthansa.
I flew Lufthansa in coach last month, and the meal I remember centered on a dish full of gravy. From beneath the waves of gravy I fished out a white mass of chicken or pork (it was advertised as chicken, so I'll assume that was true) and a handful of green beans. In one corner was another mass, the color of the chicken but the consistency of the gravy, which I decided must be mashed potatoes. The dessert was a microscopic square of some sort of cobbler, and although the identity of the fruit was ambiguous, it might have been tasty had it only contained some trace of sugar.
By contrast, on the Coast Starlight a year and a half ago I had a steak indistinguishable in quality (to me) from one I would get at a shopping-mall-chain steak restaurant, plus some artisanal dessert pastries to die for.
I don't mean to say that Amtrak shouldn't be trying a lot harder to operate efficiently, or that there isn't a clever solution out there to be found for trains outside the NEC. But I think you're overselling the idea of how trivial it is to find that solution. In particular, I don't think the airlines offer proof that it's easy. Consider that almost all US carriers except Southwest have been through bankruptcy in the past decade or two, and have mostly eliminated meals on routes where they don't compete with foreign carriers. Why are we assuming they didn't lose as much money on food as Amtrak does?
Does anybody have info about the food on Amtrak California? The menus (http://www.amtrakcalifornia.com/index.cfm/travel-info/food-and-beverages/) look only a little less attractive then the ones for the Acela cafe, but I haven't had the opportunity to try them out myself. I'd be curious to know whether California contracts for food service independently of Amtrak, and what the profit/loss is.
oltmannd But, if the passenger experience is equal or better and the cost is less, how can it not help rather than hurt? There HAVE been many suggestions by many people of plausible ways to improve both the cost and quality of the food and service. For starters, don't cook on the train! It reduces the throughput in the diner as people have to sit and wait for their meal to be cooked, instead of being served. The meals aren't any better than what you get at Applebees, and I've had food served to me on the train that's been tepid. I'd be hard pressed to say that the meals I've had on the CZ, Autotrain and Crescent were much better than the ones I've had on Lufthansa. Go to self-serve as much as possible. I don't need an attendant to get me a can of soda, a bag of chips, a pack of M&Ms and a pre-packaged deli sandwich. I can do that myself. Let the attendant do higher value work. Automating the sales and inventory system is one think Amtrak is trying. That will allow sal4th es to start before the train departs and continue right to when it stops....without a leaky cash drawer!
But, if the passenger experience is equal or better and the cost is less, how can it not help rather than hurt?
There HAVE been many suggestions by many people of plausible ways to improve both the cost and quality of the food and service.
For starters, don't cook on the train! It reduces the throughput in the diner as people have to sit and wait for their meal to be cooked, instead of being served. The meals aren't any better than what you get at Applebees, and I've had food served to me on the train that's been tepid. I'd be hard pressed to say that the meals I've had on the CZ, Autotrain and Crescent were much better than the ones I've had on Lufthansa.
Go to self-serve as much as possible. I don't need an attendant to get me a can of soda, a bag of chips, a pack of M&Ms and a pre-packaged deli sandwich. I can do that myself. Let the attendant do higher value work.
Automating the sales and inventory system is one think Amtrak is trying. That will allow sal4th es to start before the train departs and continue right to when it stops....without a leaky cash drawer!
All very good points. But just isolating the food losses without knowing what increased passengers loads will do is a 4th level study. None of us know what the food looses if any are on auto train ? Since auto train almost meets all operating costs that might be a place to study ? Do the coach passengers pay for meals on Auto train ?
"Hello Chilli's of Annsiton? This Amtrak train 19. We'd like to order 10 Chicken Caesar Salads, 25 Chicken Fajitas, 15 Beef Fajitas, 17 Shrimp Fajitas, 10 bacon cheeseburgers (etc. etc.) . We'll be in Anniston at 10:00 AM. Roger, that! Yes, we're on time today. Invoice Amtrak as usual. Bring the food in the usual racks. We have three from last night's dinner to leave with you. Tell the Meridian Chilli's we'll be giving them a call about 3 PM. Thanks. See you at the station! Amtrak train 19 out! What? Yes, I know this is a cell phone - old habits die hard."
Yes, Paul, perhaps we should all go back to the original post and re-read it, for it does not posit a change in what is served, though, as some have mentioned, there could be improvement there.
I am looking forward to a trip I have planned for early next year--up to Canada, and ride the Canadian from Vancouver to Edmonton to Jasper and back to Vancouver, with a side trip to Prince Rupert. VIA used to post the Canadian menus (a different one for each day) on its website; now it only tells us that we can enjoy good food on this train.
blue streak 1 There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain passengers ? That includes the NEC ? What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed to cover those losses ? SAM1 ?
There has not been a single post IMHO that can show that a change in the food service to a no loss position would not cause an increase in the total loss of a route by the loss of certain passengers ? That includes the NEC ? What is needed is a cost analysis of each route of food cost losses that then are translated into number of passenger or more accurate RPMs needed to cover those losses ?
SAM1 ?
There's not been a single post that shows it will, either!
Automating the sales and inventory system is one think Amtrak is trying. That will allow sales to start before the train departs and continue right to when it stops....without a leaky cash drawer!
The original post was simply remarking that whereas Amtrak wasn't changing their food service over to vending machines, stuff-in-a-sack box meals, MRE's, K-rations, letting the passenger out and having them forage in the forest and eat bugs and snakes, or microwaving pre-plated meals and serving them on plastic plates, or anymore than they are already doing, that Amtrak was going to simply "manage" their food service a little more carefully, dunno, see that employees don't "take" (gasp!) stuff or whatever.
How this has everyone upset. This is caving in to the terrorist tactics of Rep. Mica! This will end Amtrak as we know it! Amtrak passengers will starve! Amtrak passenger will be forced to ride the bus where they will have to eat hot dogs from one of those Mini-Mart sausage warmers in contravention with international treaties against War Crimes.
Oh, the Humanity! Someone (Amtrak) wants to run their food service more efficiently. People will burst into flames and have to leap from upper windows of Superliner cars!
OK, don't run Amtrak efficiently. Just spend whatever (public) money it takes to provide a Civilized Transportation Option (actually, airlines offer First Class, it costs more money yes, but the few times I have been upgraded, it is quite thoroughly pleasant.)
Let's bring back 10-6 sleepers, 50-seat "chair cars", proper Vista Domes rather than the Superliner Lounges that don't let you see out front, proper E-units for the Art Deco Streamliner look rather than those goofy Vergara Genesis Diesels. Let's bring back steam heat and axle-powered A/C units (or steam ejector in the desert Southwest, and we have to be careful about interchanging train cars).
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Sam1 Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.
Five years to eliminate the losses on its food and beverage services? Wow! It is a good thing Amtrak does not have to play in a competitive market. Can you image McDonald's or Chili's saying that it will eliminate the losses on its restaurants in five years? A business, especially a so-called established business, does not get that much time to turn around its losses.
I thought I'd check the veracity of the last sentence of that paragraph. The financial press releases from American Airlines are available at http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=quarterlyearnings. They show annual losses for 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012, at which point American declared bankruptcy and (probably thanks to the ability to apply cramdowns to its vendors, creditors, and employees courtesy of the bankruptcy laws) started showing a profit. (For one of those years, the press release trumpets an annual "net profit" excluding "special items" but a loss overall. I'm going to be a curmudgeon and say that a loss is a loss.)
Yet American Airlines is still around, and is still considered valuable enough that US Airways is fighting the US Justice department in court to be allowed to merge with American. So I would say that contrary to the assertion above, an established business does get 5 years to turn around its losses.
I don't contend this should make us happy that Amtrak's timeline is so long, just that there's a disconnect between reality and slogans about the invariable wonderfulness of private corporations.
CMStPnPLets not fool ourselves that Amtrak uses the European Model but disguises it via assembly on the first level out of sight of passengers. Very little of what you eat on Amtrak is prepared on board from scratch. It is all loaded in reheatable packaging. disassembled from that packaging and then reassembled back onto various pieces of serving plates.
The method for getting the food is not the problem. It is, as you say, inferior food prepared at an uncompetive high cost in those numerous, overstaffed commissaries, and prepared in overstaffed galleys, coupled with a totally out of date method of inventory. And to make matters worse, we are expected to pay taxes to subsidize this mess. It is not the amount of money. It is the principle.
As far as overseas goes, the food on the DB Bord Restaurants is much tastier than the stuff on Amtrak.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnP This is an Amtrak bastardization of the dining car experience. It really does need to be cleaned up and brought into the 21st Century before Amtrak can hope to stop losing money on it. I would prefer it's replacement to be better than what they have now. Which I think is doable at the break even or better level. I'm not going to fling my hands in the air and make ridiculous statements at how it has never been done before, it will never break even, etc, etc. Because it is my taxes being poured into this monstrosity that we have now.
This is an Amtrak bastardization of the dining car experience. It really does need to be cleaned up and brought into the 21st Century before Amtrak can hope to stop losing money on it. I would prefer it's replacement to be better than what they have now. Which I think is doable at the break even or better level.
I'm not going to fling my hands in the air and make ridiculous statements at how it has never been done before, it will never break even, etc, etc. Because it is my taxes being poured into this monstrosity that we have now.
NKP guy Are some contributors here interested in better service for patrons, or just "saving money?" These arguments remind me of the ones used to justify slashing social security or medicare: We have to savage it now so that we might not have to savage it later. Dumb. And by the way, add B&O-C&O to the list of railroads that tried vending machines on their trains (Washington Night Express/Chicago Night Express) with a resounding thud. Why not ask cruise ships to try vending machines or microwave ovens? Think how much money they'd save! After all, people just want to get from point A to point B real cheaply, right? Let the attacks and obfuscations from the same few people begin!
Are some contributors here interested in better service for patrons, or just "saving money?" These arguments remind me of the ones used to justify slashing social security or medicare: We have to savage it now so that we might not have to savage it later. Dumb.
And by the way, add B&O-C&O to the list of railroads that tried vending machines on their trains (Washington Night Express/Chicago Night Express) with a resounding thud.
Why not ask cruise ships to try vending machines or microwave ovens? Think how much money they'd save! After all, people just want to get from point A to point B real cheaply, right?
Let the attacks and obfuscations from the same few people begin!
I am interested in a 21st Century eating experience vs a taxpayer subsidized nostalgia that is losing money despite the subsidy. Again I am not sure why we are looking overseas for the example. We have a decent example right here on this continent with the Rocky Mountaineer Food Service Model. They don't seem to have a problem BUT they do not attempt to prepare from scratch either. Most of their dining is prepackaged food prepared off the train and delivered in reheatable portions. They do very little on board preparation other than assembly.
They manage to deliver a food service experience superior to that of Amtrak.
Amtrak which inherited it's model from the private railroads has not made a whole lot of changes to it since 1972. Why we still have 12 open and union staffed commissaries is beyond any rational explanation. I could see the 12 commissaries if the Amtrak long distance network was thousands of trains a day but alas, it is only........what? 10-15? That's almost a one to one relationship.
Lets not fool ourselves that Amtrak uses the European Model but disguises it via assembly on the first level out of sight of passengers. Very little of what you eat on Amtrak is prepared on board from scratch. It is all loaded in reheatable packaging. disassembled from that packaging and then reassembled back onto various pieces of serving plates. Somewhat like Rocky Mountaineer execept that Amtrak starts with an inferior reheatable packaged product to begin with, makes matters worse with overstaffing the diner car. Then tops it all off by some really out of date ordering system that uses paper and carbon copies............never to be data entry into a service computer anywhere. Then at the end of the meal they collect all the paper and carbons and sort by protein source (fish, beef, poultry, etc) and try to make sense of what was consumed at the last meal in a vain attempt to project for the next meal. Who runs a restaurant service that way? What privately run railway ran their dining car service that way? This is an Amtrak bastardization of the dining car experience. It really does need to be cleaned up and brought into the 21st Century before Amtrak can hope to stop losing money on it. I would prefer it's replacement to be better than what they have now. Which I think is doable at the break even or better level.
daveklepper I asked about overseas for information. But Amtrak can look to its own Acela experience to both reduce costs and still provide a "happy experience."
I asked about overseas for information. But Amtrak can look to its own Acela experience to both reduce costs and still provide a "happy experience."
NKP guyIf the bord-ellos are the way several contributors here think is the way of the future, then I tremble for Amtrak. Frankly, getting rid of dining cars is the dumbest idea I've read here. Raise the prices, tax me more, but give patrons a decent, civilized way to refresh themselves as we travel. Do you really think that further aping of airline practices will result in a happier travel experience for the public?
We have a $900 billion dollar deficit and you want a subsidized "happy experience" for Amtrak passengers? Let's go all the way, then. How about five star, seven course meals for all LD train riders for free! After all, it would only be a penny or two more per taxpayer per day.
Why not ask cruise ship to use vending machines? Because they cover their costs! (and they do feed most of their patrons via buffet - not table service) Remember when Silver Service had buffet-diners? (but still required a server to carry your tray for you?)
Do dinner trains cook food on board? Why should Amtrak?
P.S. snarky is as snarky does. It's only fair.
NKP guy I rode several fine trains in France, Germany, and Poland in May. I'm sorry, but the food experience (one can hardly say dining) is very disappointing. In Germany's Bord-ello food cars the food is prepackaged and heated by micro-wave ovens. It is, in my opinion, not "very good" at all. In fact, it bears a distinct relationship to Amtrak's cafe cars on the east coast. You have to take your little cardboard box of burning hot food and your beverage back to your seat a few cars away, not a very happy experience. And, sorry, sitting in your seat to eat is also a less-than-ideal way to eat, very akin to the airlines. In fact, the entire experience is too similar to the airline food experience. If this is some guys' idea of a great way to offer food service to all-day passengers, then I couldn't disagree more. Poland still offers dining cars with tables, waiters, etc and some fresh foods prepared on board. I will mention that one can chat at these tables and not eat in the silence that accompanies taking the microwaved food back to one's seats. If the bord-ellos are the way several contributors here think is the way of the future, then I tremble for Amtrak. Frankly, getting rid of dining cars is the dumbest idea I've read here. Raise the prices, tax me more, but give patrons a decent, civilized way to refresh themselves as we travel. Do you really think that further aping of airline practices will result in a happier travel experience for the public? Are some contributors here interested in better service for patrons, or just "saving money?" These arguments remind me of the ones used to justify slashing social security or medicare: We have to savage it now so that we might not have to savage it later. Dumb. And by the way, add B&O-C&O to the list of railroads that tried vending machines on their trains (Washington Night Express/Chicago Night Express) with a resounding thud. Why not ask cruise ships to try vending machines or microwave ovens? Think how much money they'd save! After all, people just want to get from point A to point B real cheaply, right? Let the attacks and obfuscations from the same few people begin!
I rode several fine trains in France, Germany, and Poland in May.
I'm sorry, but the food experience (one can hardly say dining) is very disappointing. In Germany's Bord-ello food cars the food is prepackaged and heated by micro-wave ovens. It is, in my opinion, not "very good" at all. In fact, it bears a distinct relationship to Amtrak's cafe cars on the east coast. You have to take your little cardboard box of burning hot food and your beverage back to your seat a few cars away, not a very happy experience. And, sorry, sitting in your seat to eat is also a less-than-ideal way to eat, very akin to the airlines. In fact, the entire experience is too similar to the airline food experience.
If this is some guys' idea of a great way to offer food service to all-day passengers, then I couldn't disagree more. Poland still offers dining cars with tables, waiters, etc and some fresh foods prepared on board. I will mention that one can chat at these tables and not eat in the silence that accompanies taking the microwaved food back to one's seats.
If the bord-ellos are the way several contributors here think is the way of the future, then I tremble for Amtrak. Frankly, getting rid of dining cars is the dumbest idea I've read here. Raise the prices, tax me more, but give patrons a decent, civilized way to refresh themselves as we travel. Do you really think that further aping of airline practices will result in a happier travel experience for the public?
Your snide, negative remarks are out of place. In a Bordrestaurant (NOT Bord-ello) car on an ICE train on DB in Germany, there are tables seating various numbers of patrons (up to 24) with table cloth. If you are in first class, you have the option of service at your seat. Sounds like you got your food in the Bordbistro. I ride German, Italian and other European trains every year and have done so for over 40 years.
You want to save dining cars on Amtrak? Fine. Then raise the prices and have sleeper patrons pay for their food. Some of us believe the function of Amtrak is primarily to provide good transportation where passenger rail service is rational. Subsidizing infrastructure, and operating costs while new services are developed makes sense. Subsidized meals does not. Your remarks on cruise ships are self-condemning.
schlimm Dave: DB uses an updated concept on its intercity trains, with either Bord-Bistro or Bord-restaurant cars (or both). Service is faster than the traditional dining car. I think they cover their costs. They offer a wide range, including food served at your seat in 1st class. Link which shows menus, etc. as PDF's. https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml?dbkanal_007=L01_S01_D001_KIN0001_service-flyout-bistro_LZ01 it is in German, but i think you are reasonably fluent? Here are the Bord-restaurant offerings: https://db-bordgastronomie.de/dbgastro/downloads/DB_BR-Speisekarte_13-09.pdf The menus are bilingual.
Dave: DB uses an updated concept on its intercity trains, with either Bord-Bistro or Bord-restaurant cars (or both). Service is faster than the traditional dining car. I think they cover their costs. They offer a wide range, including food served at your seat in 1st class. Link which shows menus, etc. as PDF's. https://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/zug/bordgastronomie/monatsaktion.shtml?dbkanal_007=L01_S01_D001_KIN0001_service-flyout-bistro_LZ01
it is in German, but i think you are reasonably fluent? Here are the Bord-restaurant offerings:
https://db-bordgastronomie.de/dbgastro/downloads/DB_BR-Speisekarte_13-09.pdf
The menus are bilingual.
V.PayneBut if the new Route Director position is not allowed to order new/additional revenue equipment can they really be accountable for the full profit and loss? They are not allowed to vary the most important variable in the transportation profitability question, operational scale.
Two thoughts on this:
1. If consists are fixed, that doesn't preclude working on other areas to improve revenue and reduce costs. Amtrak is fertile ground for all sorts of initiatives. Optimize schedules, reduce servicing costs, provide more "self serve" services, charge for reserved/premium seats, etc.
2. If they can show that additional equipment will provide incremental revenue in excess of incremental costs by enough to finance equipment, Amtrak should be able to get outside financing. Also, improving equipment availability can "create" more equipment. Could Amtrak get to 95% availabiltiy? Probably.
On German trains, centrally prepared and heated on board by a variety of methods. Mostly pretty good.
Sam: Is their meal service provided in a manner similar to most of Amtrak's long distance trains?
Schlimm: Mouth watering! But do these trains have full kitchens with food cooked from scratch on board or is it more like aircraft and Acela preparation?
daveklepper Getting back to food service, and the possibiltiy of switching to a Sky-Chefs approach, where elsewhere in the world are fast regular (not nostalgia, museum or deluxe tourist trains) trains operated with the historic dining car approach used on most Amtrak long-distance trains and on the Canadian? Anywhere?
Getting back to food service, and the possibiltiy of switching to a Sky-Chefs approach, where elsewhere in the world are fast regular (not nostalgia, museum or deluxe tourist trains) trains operated with the historic dining car approach used on most Amtrak long-distance trains and on the Canadian? Anywhere?
The Great Southern Railway in Australia has three trains (Indian Pacific, Ghan, and Overland) that offer sit-down dining cars.
The Indian Pacific and the Ghan run one or two days a week depending on the season. The Overland runs two days per week.
I have ridden all three trains. They attract a significant number of foreign and domestic tourists, but they also get riders from the intermediate stops, especially those in the Outback. Whether they are tourist trains depends on the definition of a tourist train.
If the coaches and sleepers have load factors under 60%, adding more revenue cars will only increase the operating expenses, to say nothing of misallocated resources, which could be added to expanding srvices on more promising routes. Or adding a day train on the Crescent route (ATL-DC only), as Don Oltmann has suggested.
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