Religious fanatics

[selector]

Actually, dharmon, the author of the 'original' was C.C. Parry. Words and music.

[edblysard]

True,
But this might be an example of a troll's effort backfiring.

After reading all the postings, it is rather satisfying to see that not only is religious tolerance an almost universal trait among the members, but the ability to poke fun at ones self, as well as each other, is alive and well also.

And I noted that we all were quite quick to defend CWs right to believe however she wants too, and her right to express that belief here, and just as quick to defend the right of some to not believe in a eternal being, and their right to express such beliefs.

Makes me feel a lot more secure in knowing that at least that part of the American experience is still alive and well.

So, for once, a trolls posting managed to bring out the good in all of us, and create a great platform for Deacon Gabe and Dan the man to exercise their truly god given talents!

Ed

[Mookie]

And just when I was thinking you all had gone and gotten boring, you have an all night 4 page party!

Sister Mookie laughs and shakes her head!

[Junctionfan]

1/ To Daveklepper: I must disagree respectfully with you. It has always been that way for ages. The Crusades started it and has raged on unofficially ever since. The U.S has just inherited the mess from the Europeans and has fanned the flames of hatred for awhile now stemming from international interfering with countries that don't want the "outsiders sticking their nose where it doesn't belong". The terrorist groups being the opportune politcian like scum that they are, adds the logs to the fires of hatred and nurses it to health even after hundreds of years and despite an apology from Pope John Paul II.

2/To Fuzzybroken: Good response sir, I couldn't agree more.

[tree68]

Terrorists will be terrorists. Religion just gives them a platform from which to launch their violence. The terrorists in this country seem to come out when their team wins a championship. They may not be setting off car bombs, but they are spreading terror and violence nonetheless, however briefly.

[cherokee woman]

Ed, you are so right. Each of us have our personal beliefs. None of us are
ever going to totally agree with each other. What a dull world we'd live in, if
that were the case! I don't care if someone agrees with the way I believe, or
not. But I sure don't want anybody telling me what I can or cannot believe in,
or that I can't express my beliefs or my thoughts. And I TRY not to impose my
beliefs on anyone else.

Sister Paula

[gabe]

To all:

Thank you for the kind words. It is nice to see that my efforts to brighten up a thread that will otherwise be overrun by zealots not go unnoticed.

I really don't have an opinion on "In God we Trust." Without saying my religious beliefs, something on the head of a coin isn't going to change them. But, I always understood the phrase not to be one of “religious expression” but one of "we don't trust anyone else"--an ode to the libertarian "government that governs less governs best" belief of American democracy if you will. Oh well . . .

Junctionfan:

This really isn't a place for me to talk religion, so I am not going to get into it with you on the merits, but I fail to see how your zealotry is not the most extreme expression of a religious view that I have yet seen on this forum. Also, you take the most extreme examples of a 3000+ year old institution. That is hardly fair. I don't judge all Canadians on the basis of Margret Trudeau . . .

Gabe

[dharmon]

And now let us pray...

OMMMMMMMMM.......

EMD, GE, ALCO, Baldwin, ad inifinituuuummm.....
Stop at crossing gates don't try to beat theeeemmm.........

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I don't judge all Canadians on the basis of Margret Trudeau . . .

Well that's just great!!!

I was planning on going to the freaky deaky swinging singles weekend in Canada this summer....

Guess I'll take the kids to Disney instead.....maybe I can hook up with Jessica Rabbit....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

And now let us pray...

OMMMMMMMMM.......

EMD, GE, ALCO, Baldwin, ad inifinituuuummm.....
Stop at crossing gates don't try to beat theeeemmm.........

OW, sides splitting... laughing to hard.... total collapse imminent[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[techguy57]

Dan- Thanks as always for the great laughs! No better way than to start my day of with some quality laughs[:D]

Gabe-Perhaps one of the best responses I have read on this forum. I think I'm going to print it out and put it on my wall.[8D]

Ed- Couldn't agree more with everything you've said (as usual). I've been a believer for some time that if you can't laugh at yourself then you are way too serious.[:)]

Mike

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I don't judge all Canadians on the basis of Margret Trudeau . . .

Well that's just great!!!

I was planning on going to the freaky deaky swinging singles weekend in Canada this summer....

Guess I'll take the kids to Disney instead.....maybe I can hook up with Jessica Rabbit....

<Gabe bows his head, as he knows that he has been beat>

There is no way I can top that.

[CShaveRR]

Andy?

I always thought it was Art or Harold.

("Art in Heaven" or "Harold by thy name")

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

True,
But this might be an example of a troll's effort backfiring.

After reading all the postings, it is rather satisfying to see that not only is religious tolerance an almost universal trait among the members, but the ability to poke fun at ones self, as well as each other, is alive and well also.

And I noted that we all were quite quick to defend CWs right to believe however she wants too, and her right to express that belief here, and just as quick to defend the right of some to not believe in a eternal being, and their right to express such beliefs.

Makes me feel a lot more secure in knowing that at least that part of the American experience is still alive and well.

So, for once, a trolls posting managed to bring out the good in all of us, and create a great platform for Deacon Gabe and Dan the man to exercise their truly god given talents!

Ed

Heh, well....the best way to get a troll out from under his bridge is with the use of fire,.....yes?[8D] Flame the little sucker out of there?

While the following is not intended as a reflection on CW, because all I know of her is the positive that I read from her posts, but as it pertains strictly to the solicitous religious pandering that the more proactive evangelicals are know for,...well I would tend to side with the complainer in that case, because it can get nauseating.

The ones I h8 the worst are the flowery "OH, god bless you, I'll be praying for your soul" types, where the implication is that they will, since I don't have the sense to, etc........(which I don't think CW is that way, so the guys complaint, in this case, is probably not well founded)

I don't think it is a matter of the beliefs that is the problem, it is the evangelical nature of a portion who make all the rest look bad...

As far as "In God we trust", and the "one nation under god" bit in the pledge,... well I think both have no place in a government professing to be equal to all.

Michael Newdow has it right, IMHO http://www.restorethepledge.com/ .


As someone who was born a Catholic, but at one point decided "enough is enough", it is degrading to have to carry currency with someone elses emotional baggage emblazoned across the front of it.. So, I pay by check, whenever possible [:D]

[Anonymous]

PS, I still think the complainer is likely a "sock puppet" created by another member expressly for the putpose of causing this clash.

Look hard at his style of prose and punctuation, and you will probably pick out glaring similarities with some other trouble maker. A mans writing style is like a set of finger prints.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

I don't judge all Canadians on the basis of Margret Trudeau . . .

Well that's just great!!!

I was planning on going to the freaky deaky swinging singles weekend in Canada this summer....

Guess I'll take the kids to Disney instead.....maybe I can hook up with Jessica Rabbit....

<Gabe bows his head, as he knows that he has been beat>

There is no way I can top that.

au contrair my frer......

we're peers in peerage....

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

PS, I still think the complainer is likely a "sock puppet" created by another member expressly for the putpose of causing this clash.

Look hard at his style of prose and punctuation, and you will probably pick out glaring similarities with some other trouble maker. A mans writing style is like a set of finger prints.

Agreed.....but this is happening so often now, that it's hard to keep track.

[Anonymous]

Well, this has been one of the most civilized debates concerning religion I have ever witnessed.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

To all:

Thank you for the kind words. It is nice to see that my efforts to brighten up a thread that will otherwise be overrun by zealots not go unnoticed.

I really don't have an opinion on "In God we Trust." Without saying my religious beliefs, something on the head of a coin isn't going to change them. But, I always understood the phrase not to be one of “religious expression” but one of "we don't trust anyone else"--an ode to the libertarian "government that governs less governs best" belief of American democracy if you will. Oh well . . .

Junctionfan:

This really isn't a place for me to talk religion, so I am not going to get into it with you on the merits, but I fail to see how your zealotry is not the most extreme expression of a religious view that I have yet seen on this forum. Also, you take the most extreme examples of a 3000+ year old institution. That is hardly fair. I don't judge all Canadians on the basis of Margret Trudeau . . .

Gabe

Zealotry? Nothing could be furthur from the truth. I like religion despite those who would spoil it for the rest of us. I am simply pointing out that the extreme blind following without question way is outdated and simply an instrument of control of the few.

All religion is like this since the ages before Christianity. Adramalech was worshipped in ancient Assyria and at his temples, children were supposedly burned at his alter; Baal by the Canaanites; in ancient Egypt, the worship of Set was made illegal. All civilizations at one point have made sacrifices to their gods as the tradition of polytheism dictated. With the exception of ancient druid which celebrates the earth, most believe that failure to "obey the ruler was to disobey the god and risk wrath".

Then it went out of fashion and the birth of monotheism emerged. Supposedly the light to bring peace. The bibles and Kuran all say the share the same values: peace. What do thease scum do, they twist it and use it for their own political purposes-control. Majority of thease crusaders I would say, do it to maintain order or stay in power. Long has religion now been nothing more then a tool or control rather then its intended purpose-bring about a peaceful way of life.

Yes I am ranting but I say that most not all people have forgotten what religion is and is trully intended for.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Zealotry? Nothing could be furthur from the truth. I like religion despite those who would spoil it for the rest of us. I am simply pointing out that the extreme blind following without question way is outdated and simply an instrument of control of the few.

All religion is like this since the ages before Christianity. Adramalech was worshipped in ancient Assyria and at his temples, children were supposedly burned at his alter; Baal by the Canaanites; in ancient Egypt, the worship of Set was made illegal. All civilizations at one point have made sacrifices to their gods as the tradition of polytheism dictated. With the exception of ancient druid which celebrates the earth, most believe that failure to "obey the ruler was to disobey the god and risk wrath".

Then it went out of fashion and the birth of monotheism emerged. Supposedly the light to bring peace. The bibles and Kuran all say the share the same values: peace. What do thease scum do, they twist it and use it for their own political purposes-control. Majority of thease crusaders I would say, do it to maintain order or stay in power. Long has religion now been nothing more then a tool or control rather then its intended purpose-bring about a peaceful way of life.

Yes I am ranting but I say that most not all people have forgotten what religion is and is trully intended for.

You forgot the most murderous religion - Communism -

[chad thomas]

My religion is not about controll. It's about accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior. It's about obeying GODs commandments, not what man said.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

You forgot the most murderous religion - Communism -

No kidding....'cause unless you keep getting back in line, you'd starve to death trying to live on a cracker and a sip of wine.

[daveklepper]

Junctionfan: I don't judge all Germans on the basis of what the *** did, and indeed on my visits to Germany I encountered less anti-Semitism than in some other European countries that were supposedly on our side in WWII. There are good and bad people of all types. Including atheists!

However, when the British colonialists decided the way to get cheap oil was to give Mecca and the oil to the Wahabee tribe and make them the Saudi Kings, they set back an enlightened Muslim population to the days even preceding the Crusades. This is a separate issue. This is the only religion in the world where its center is off limits to all other religions. Where its home country bans other religions. That is why it is a breeding ground for terrorism. And the reason it has continued for so long is only because of the completely unfair and predatory practices of the highway-auto-oil lobby. Again, the 15 terrorist from Saudi Arabia got into the USA without consular review or security check. Saudi people were treated as special guests by the State Department and could keep the domestic servants in real slavery IN THE UNITED STATES without prosecution, as discussed in a National Review article about 1-1/2 years ago. The Saudis make a big show of fighting terrorism today, but continue to export the theology that breeds terrrorism, that says that "killing and infidal gets one into heaven and an infidal is anyone not a Muslim." Saudi money still is funding schools and mosques in the USA that preach that line. But this is not the Islam of the KORAN. There is plenty in the Koran to provide respect for both Jews and Christians. When Muhammed became a military leader later in his life he wrote some nasty things about Jews and Christians, and these are the writings that the Saudis have emphasized. ---along with the Nazi distributed Protocols of the Elders of Zion among other hate literature that they have published in Arabic and widely distributed --even at an Islamic Frankfort, Germany book fair. You can imagine my reaction when I read about President Bsuh asking for Saudis to lower oil prices. But possibly Bush did all the right things behind the scenes and it just was not discussed. Maybe we will see my dream of an American military base in Saudi Arabia and all Saudi school children at one time or another getting a lecture with slides or movies from the Post Chaplain (American Catholic, Protestan, or Jew) talking about religious freedom and its benefits to America. But this solution won't happen just by panning all religion.

But I am for free speech and I recognize the right of Junctionfan for his opinions. I hope he recognizes the rights to mine and all of yours!

[Anonymous]

So, quertion to the religiously inclined,...what are you gonna do when life is discovered on some other planet??

The book of genesis is pretty specific about earth being the sole gig in the heavens,...so how wiill you explain that away? [}:)]

[gabe]

The best efforts of mice and men done away by those who insist on talking religion again . . . . and I tried so hard.

Can't we have a nice civil debate about Amtrak, remote control switching operations, open access, or public funds used to aid freight railroads?

Gabe

P.S. Junctionfan, thanks for not getting into on the merits. You know how to take a cheap shot when others aren't going to respond.

[daveklepper]

For most religious people, the Genisis creation story has moral messages and is to be interpreted in manners that meet at least half way with modern science. Remember that modern science still includes various opinions about the original creation, big bang or whatever, about mutliple universes, etc. Similarly, each of the three religions have gobs of interpretive books that add lots of additional views and information to the basic creation story. As I sometimes point out to those who criticise my own Orthodoxy, the greatest Jewish Biblical commetator is often considered to be Miamonedies, the RAMBA"M, who lived about 900 years ago, born in Spain when ruled by the Muslims, and ended his life and career in Egypt, where he was the court physician to the Egyptian Calyph and his financial advisor. He did not use the medical methods proscrived in Leviticus, and you can read Leviticus to see just what the Bible says to do! He used the best medical information available at that time.

I am sure a good Catholic can come up with similar comments about Thomas Aquainis and others.

And Muslim science was way ahead of Europe some 600 years ago, and they wrote about the Earth being round long before Copernicus and Galilleo.

I'll come up with a better answer when that life is discovered. Meanwhile, concerning the six days of creation, Maimonodies showed that time could be variable before Einstein did, and then postulated that time for the Eternal, as reflected in the Bible, is not the same as time for human beings' daily affairs.

Finally, to be Orthodox does mean to be a Fundamentalist. The Eternal commanded Moses to make the new two tablets of the Ten Commandments and also to build an Ark to put them in. Moses was good engineer and built the Ark first, the opposite of the order in which these commandments come in the Bible.

[daveklepper]

Correction, should read "doesn't mean to be a Fundamentalist"

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

Andy?

I always thought it was Art or Harold.

("Art in Heaven" or "Harold by thy name")

Art, Harold and Andy - the trinity

[Junctionfan]

I hope you all are not miscontruing my points into some kind of sympathising of any particular religion.

I am saying that the religious fanatics are nothing more then politicians bringing partisanship into something that should never be brought into religion of love and peace. Any religion that professes on being that of peace and tolerance, has no business in commiting violence in the name of God by whatever name.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

For most religious people, the Genisis creation story has moral messages and is to be interpreted in manners that meet at least half way with modern science. Remember that modern science still includes various opinions about the original creation, big bang or whatever, about mutliple universes, etc.

OK, so you are Jewish? I read not all that long ago that it is the generally held opinion of most jewish scholars that Genesis is fiction, based upon some fact.

"Moral messages" as you put it, clearly have good value. But there are those who insist they are good christians, insist that the entire bible is the inspired word of god, and who refuse to recognize that mortal man has had a significant hand in muddling up the "official version" to suit particular agendas.

Those same people are quick to point out that I am headed to hell for not believing as they do.

Your very sensible observation of "is to be interpreted in manners that meet at least half way with modern science. " is based upon good common sense, but does NOT conform to the popular beliefs of those devoutely insistant that the entire bible is the word of God. They (when confronted with realities revealed by advances in science) usually try and climb through some conveniant wormhole, reinterpreting what they have claimed the bible to have meant for centuries, into something new that is in lesser defiance if the new truth revealed by progression of science.

They cop out, in other words, to the least possible level that still permits them to cling to shreds of their original concept(s).

And, the purpose of my original inquiry was simply in trying to anticipate what that next sell out (in context with genesis' story regarding our singulat significance) is likely to be..

My bet is that they will have to try and claim that god didn't think it was any of our business to disclose his OTHER creations to us, or that his instructions were intened to be specific only to earth, and the very contemplation of trying to apply them beyond the confines of earth is somehow flawed and invalid. That the mistake is in those who try too hard to apply the meaning where it was never intended, etc.

A "Copernicus" event, in other words, all over again...just of a different scale....

Speaking of Leviticus, why aren't we adhering strictly to it's teaching? It is part of the bible, so what gives us the right to decide that adultry is a sin, yet leviticus 20:13 can be ignored with impunity?