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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:33 PM

Euclid
It seems to me there are three different distinctions within this topic:   1)   Biological research having nothing to do with military weapon applications.  In other words, bio labs researching medicines and vaccines for fighting disease.       2)   Biological research into dangerous pathogens and to explore how they may be used in biological weapons of war.  Here, the potential for such research could be to use it for either the creation of biological weapons, the defense against them, or both.       3)   The research and manufacture of biological weapons.     It seems to me that the actual verified facts are related to item #2.  If so, there may not be any illegality or controversy to this at all.  It would depend on the laws pertaining to such research.  #2 would also explain Victoria Nuland’s concern that the biological materials in the labs might end up in Russian hands, a concern that would be unlikely if the labs are related to item #1.  There is no evidence that these labs were actually manufacturing agent for use in chemical weapons.   However, it seems to me that the discovery of these labs in the context of a war would be at least highly significant.   Apparently, it was Russia that first broke the news of the labs, and they did so under the, at least, the implied premise that the U.S. was conducting research to develop agents for use in chemical weapons, or even manufacturing them.   I perceive a lot of the response to this news to be denial that any of the three items above are true.  And out of this denial has come the allegation that Russia made up the whole story to use as a false flag to cover up their plans to actually use chemical weapons to win the war in Ukraine.  In other words, Russia will attack with chemical weapons and claim that that the Ukrainians did it.  So, under this theory, the Ukrainian labs, allegedly found, will be the source of the weapons Ukraine will use against Russia in Ukraine.  Therefore the allegations for the existence of these labs will set the stage for making it believable that Ukraine used chemical weapons, when it will actually be the Russians who will have used them. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lUt6DMfrBg

It was crystal clear it was the first instance labs related to civilian pathogens and it was made even clearer if you listened to Senator Warners remarks     How you got this all messed up in your head is anyones guess  no matter because some on FOX News are confused as well recommend you review the CSPAN coverage

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:21 PM

Psychot
One of the more fascinating developments in U.S. politics in recent years is the emergence of Putin sympathizers/apologists on the right. This phenomenon has been prevalent in Europe for some years now, as far-right parties in Austria, Germany, Hungary, France, and other countries have been unabashed in their fawning over Putin. In 2016, these sentiments gained a foothold in the GOP mainstream, led by the Putin-Sympathizer-in-Chief; one of many reasons that Ronald Reagan is undoubtedly rolling over in his grave. Thankfully, the traditional Reaganites in the GOP have the upper hand -- at least for the moment -- and the Putin fanboys and -girls have been marginalized.

    You can start with the former SPD Chancellor of Germany.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:02 PM

Psychot
One of the more fascinating developments in U.S. politics in recent years is the emergence of Putin sympathizers/apologists on the right. This phenomenon has been prevalent in Europe for some years now, as far-right parties in Austria, Germany, Hungary, France, and other countries have been unabashed in their fawning over Putin. In 2016, these sentiments gained a foothold in the GOP mainstream, led by the Putin-Sympathizer-in-Chief; one of many reasons that Ronald Reagan is undoubtedly rolling over in his grave. Thankfully, the traditional Reaganites in the GOP have the upper hand -- at least for the moment -- and the Putin fanboys and -girls have been marginalized.

 

Sources, facts, definition of terms??
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Posted by Psychot on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 10:53 AM

BaltACD

 

 
tree68
 
BaltACD
ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA. 

Alas, with reports of of US involved bio labs in the Ukraine (following on to China and the "Rona") and stories of corruption involving the Ukraine and certain higher-ups in this country, not to mention corruption in the Ukraine, it's not hard to imagine that people could feel that way.

 

It is equally easy for them to be viewed as traitors to the USA.  The 'Alternative Fact' movement is the home for traitors.  Putin is 'alternative facts' in person - all lies all the time.

 

One of the more fascinating developments in U.S. politics in recent years is the emergence of Putin sympathizers/apologists on the right. This phenomenon has been prevalent in Europe for some years now, as far-right parties in Austria, Germany, Hungary, France, and other countries have been unabashed in their fawning over Putin. In 2016, these sentiments gained a foothold in the GOP mainstream, led by the Putin-Sympathizer-in-Chief; one of many reasons that Ronald Reagan is undoubtedly rolling over in his grave.

Thankfully, the traditional Reaganites in the GOP have the upper hand -- at least for the moment -- and the Putin fanboys and -girls have been marginalized.

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:14 AM

I believe that #2 is correct.  I've also read (can't find it now), that the reason the Russians knew about the labs is that they were former Soviet labs.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 8:59 AM

CMStPnP
The exchange between herself [Victoria Nuland] and Marco Rubio was clarifying they were regular medical research labs that every country has to research infectious biological agents and have nothing to do with biological warfare

It seems to me there are three different distinctions within this topic:
 

1)   Biological research having nothing to do with military weapon applications.  In other words, bio labs researching medicines and vaccines for fighting disease.

 

 

 

2)   Biological research into dangerous pathogens and to explore how they may be used in biological weapons of war.  Here, the potential for such research could be to use it for either the creation of biological weapons, the defense against them, or both.

 

 

 

3)   The research and manufacture of biological weapons.

 

 
It seems to me that the actual verified facts are related to item #2.  If so, there may not be any illegality or controversy to this at all.  It would depend on the laws pertaining to such research.  #2 would also explain Victoria Nuland’s concern that the biological materials in the labs might end up in Russian hands, a concern that would be unlikely if the labs are related to item #1.  There is no evidence that these labs were actually manufacturing agent for use in chemical weapons.
 
However, it seems to me that the discovery of these labs in the context of a war would be at least highly significant.
 
Apparently, it was Russia that first broke the news of the labs, and they did so under the, at least, the implied premise that the U.S. was conducting research to develop agents for use in chemical weapons, or even manufacturing them.
 
I perceive a lot of the response to this news to be denial that any of the three items above are true.  And out of this denial has come the allegation that Russia made up the whole story to use as a false flag to cover up their plans to actually use chemical weapons to win the war in Ukraine.  In other words, Russia will attack with chemical weapons and claim that that the Ukrainians did it.  So, under this theory, the Ukrainian labs, allegedly found, will be the source of the weapons Ukraine will use against Russia in Ukraine.  Therefore the allegations for the existence of these labs will set the stage for making it believable that Ukraine used chemical weapons, when it will actually be the Russians who will have used them. 
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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 8:22 AM

tree68

 

 
BaltACD
ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA.

 

Alas, with reports of of US involved bio labs in the Ukraine (following on to China and the "Rona") and stories of corruption involving the Ukraine and certain higher-ups in this country, not to mention corruption in the Ukraine, it's not hard to imagine that people could feel that way.

 

Every major government and university has "biolabs".  As far as corruption goes, how do you think all those Russian oligarchs became billionaires? Think of it, 30 years ago, all industries were state owned. How did they come to be owned by one person?  Many were "gifts" to powerful party officials.  Taras--you get the steel mill, Boris--you get the mines, Vlad, you get the oil wells, etc.

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Posted by Psychot on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 8:07 AM

tree68

 

 
BaltACD
ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA.

 

Alas, with reports of of US involved bio labs in the Ukraine (following on to China and the "Rona") and stories of corruption involving the Ukraine and certain higher-ups in this country, not to mention corruption in the Ukraine, it's not hard to imagine that people could feel that way.

 

 

lol... if nothing else, this post is proof that Russian propaganda does work.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 7:56 AM

tree68
 
BaltACD
ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA. 

Alas, with reports of of US involved bio labs in the Ukraine (following on to China and the "Rona") and stories of corruption involving the Ukraine and certain higher-ups in this country, not to mention corruption in the Ukraine, it's not hard to imagine that people could feel that way.

It is equally easy for them to be viewed as traitors to the USA.  The 'Alternative Fact' movement is the home for traitors.  Putin is 'alternative facts' in person - all lies all the time.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 6:57 AM

BaltACD
ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA.

Alas, with reports of of US involved bio labs in the Ukraine (following on to China and the "Rona") and stories of corruption involving the Ukraine and certain higher-ups in this country, not to mention corruption in the Ukraine, it's not hard to imagine that people could feel that way.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, March 14, 2022 10:01 PM

BaltACD
Backshop
charlie hebdo 
Backshop

It doesn't really matter.  The first reason for their invasion was to "protect" the breakaway regions.  Then it was to save the Ukrainian people from their leaders.  Then it was to get rid of "Nazis".  Now, they were "concerned" about biolabs.  Yet, they have their fellow travelers who constantly make excuses for them. 

One of them is a Fox News host, although some might characterize him as a "useful idiot.'. Another is a current resident of Palm Beach. 

Being a firearms enthusiast, I frequent a few "conservative" forums. The love of Putin is widespread among them.  It's scary because they're all "patriots".

ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA.

I'm sure Father Coughlin's listeners and the members of the German-American Bund also considered themselves to be patriots.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, March 14, 2022 9:59 PM

Backshop

 

 
charlie hebdo

 

 
Backshop

It doesn't really matter.  The first reason for their invasion was to "protect" the breakaway regions.  Then it was to save the Ukrainian people from their leaders.  Then it was to get rid of "Nazis".  Now, they were "concerned" about biolabs.  Yet, they have their fellow travelers who constantly make excuses for them.

 

 

 

One of them is a Fox News host, although some might characterize him as a "useful idiot.'. Another is a current resident of Palm Beach.

 

 

 

 

Being a firearms enthusiast, I frequent a few "conservative" forums. The love of Putin is widespread among them.  It's scary because they're all "patriots".

 

 

Right wingers here and elsewhere love white autocrats like Putin. Russia has many fine people who might just overthrow Putin. But Russia is also the home base for a lot of White Power types and neo-Nazi racists.  

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Monday, March 14, 2022 9:51 PM

The funny thing is that one of the best ways of countering Russian power was keeping oil prices low and for Europe to find alternatives to Russian natural gas.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, March 14, 2022 9:27 PM

Backshop
 
charlie hebdo 
Backshop

It doesn't really matter.  The first reason for their invasion was to "protect" the breakaway regions.  Then it was to save the Ukrainian people from their leaders.  Then it was to get rid of "Nazis".  Now, they were "concerned" about biolabs.  Yet, they have their fellow travelers who constantly make excuses for them. 

One of them is a Fox News host, although some might characterize him as a "useful idiot.'. Another is a current resident of Palm Beach. 

Being a firearms enthusiast, I frequent a few "conservative" forums. The love of Putin is widespread among them.  It's scary because they're all "patriots".

ANYONE loving Putin can not be a patriot of the USA.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, March 14, 2022 7:21 PM

charlie hebdo

 

 
Backshop

It doesn't really matter.  The first reason for their invasion was to "protect" the breakaway regions.  Then it was to save the Ukrainian people from their leaders.  Then it was to get rid of "Nazis".  Now, they were "concerned" about biolabs.  Yet, they have their fellow travelers who constantly make excuses for them.

 

 

 

One of them is a Fox News host, although some might characterize him as a "useful idiot.'. Another is a current resident of Palm Beach.

 

 

Being a firearms enthusiast, I frequent a few "conservative" forums. The love of Putin is widespread among them.  It's scary because they're all "patriots".

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, March 14, 2022 6:29 PM
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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, March 14, 2022 5:31 PM

Backshop

It doesn't really matter.  The first reason for their invasion was to "protect" the breakaway regions.  Then it was to save the Ukrainian people from their leaders.  Then it was to get rid of "Nazis".  Now, they were "concerned" about biolabs.  Yet, they have their fellow travelers who constantly make excuses for them.

 

One of them is a Fox News host, although some might characterize him as a "useful idiot.'. Another is a current resident of Palm Beach.

 

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Monday, March 14, 2022 1:48 PM

What people need to remember is this Chencyna fought the Russian Army to a standstill in the 90's.  Afghanistan DEFEATED the entire freaking USSR then the USA fighting us both in the last 40 years.  The USA lost to North Vietnam in the 60's and 70's due to the number of KIA and WIA they sent home.  Russia in not the Soviet Union of the 30's and 40's where Stalin would have killed off half the population to survive the war.  Putin can not risk losing to much for one simple reason way to many people have access to reliable outside information now.  His new draconion laws he has rammed into effect are going to boomerang on him in the worst way.  Why is that people that have tasted freedom will want more of it.  His throwing people in prison for up to 15 years for saying the wrong words is going to cause the people to say NO MORE.  Just watch and wait he is going to lose and lose everything.  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 14, 2022 11:04 AM

Backshop
There's a reason Russia isn't in NATO.  NATO was founded to counter the USSR (Russia).

As a British general once said concerning Europe and NATO:

"NATO was founded to keep the Americans in,  the Russians out,  and the Germans down."

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, March 14, 2022 9:46 AM

It doesn't really matter.  The first reason for their invasion was to "protect" the breakaway regions.  Then it was to save the Ukrainian people from their leaders.  Then it was to get rid of "Nazis".  Now, they were "concerned" about biolabs.  Yet, they have their fellow travelers who constantly make excuses for them.

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, March 14, 2022 9:41 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
Euclid
US undersecretary of state acknowledges there are biological warfare labs in Ukraine
 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/10/nula-m10.html

 

 

 

The exchange between herself and Marco Rubio was clarifying they were regular medical research labs that every country has to research infectious biological agents and have nothing to do with biological warfare

 

 
In your post above, you are distorting what Victoria Nuland actually said when you say:
 
“The exchange between herself and Marco Rubio was clarifying they were regular medical research labs that every country has to research infectious biological agents and have nothing to do with biological warfare."
 
She never said the labs were “were regular medical research labs that every country has to research infectious biological agents and have nothing to do with biological warfare."  I assume you are adding that as your characterization of what you believe she meant.  But we don't know what she meant, and opinions might vary.  
 
She only said, “Ukraine has biological research facilities.”
 
This is what Victoria Nuland said in her testimony:
 
“Ukraine has biological research facilities which in fact we are now quite concerned Russian troops, Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of, so we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces should they approach.”
 
She only said:  “Ukraine has biological research facilities.”
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Posted by Backshop on Monday, March 14, 2022 9:40 AM

Russia and NATO signed some cooperation agreements but I don't think Russia ever applied for NATO membership.  Putin has recently claimed that he asked Clinton about it in 2000, but I think that's just maskirovka to try to put Russia in the aggrieved party position for their attack on Ukraine.

There's a reason Russia isn't in NATO.  NATO was founded to counter the USSR (Russia).  Yeah, I know they aren't the same thing, but Russia was by far the dominant member.  Couldn't you see what a mess it would be right now if Russia was a member?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, March 14, 2022 8:41 AM

charlie hebdo
The historic context is part of the admittance process.

Point out below where it states pre WWII History is even relevant.............     If it was, how did they reconcile offering NATO Membership to Russia of all countries?  

https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 14, 2022 8:10 AM

charlie hebdo
Democracy does not emerge out of nowhere.

American tend to forget that, probably because there was a certain amount of luck and circumstance involved in the development of American democracy.

By this I mean that while the French, Spanish, and Dutch colonies in the New World were always under the tight control of their home governments the colonists in British North America were essentially dumped on the beach.  Those colonists were forced into developing their own governments, first local then colony-wide.  By the time of the Revolution there were thirteen fuctioning democracies in British North America, not identical or perfect but functioning just the same. But it didn't happen overnight, it took time.  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 14, 2022 8:01 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
Euclid
US undersecretary of state acknowledges there are biological warfare labs in Ukraine
 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/10/nula-m10.html

 

 

 

The exchange between herself and Marco Rubio was clarifying they were regular medical research labs that every country has to research infectious biological agents and have nothing to do with biological warfare

 

Correct.  Every developed country had bacteriological research labs, it's all part of the study of medicine.  As far as I know all (realistic) developed countries gave up on bacteriological warfare decades ago, the "Patriotic Germ" that will attack the "bad guys" but will leave your own people alone doesn't exist and never will.

Despite the differences in external packaging humans are all the same under the skin, what infects one race or ethnic group will infect all.  

Even Hitler forbade bacteriological warfare research as too dangerous, and we know what kind of humanitarian he was.  (Himmler and the SS had a bio-war lab operating on the sly, but that's another story.) 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, March 14, 2022 7:58 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
charlie hebdo
History is relevant except for people who ignore it.  Few member states of the former USSR except the three Baltic states have had any experience with representative government. Democracy does not emerge out of nowhere.

 



Which has nothing to do with the requirements for NATO membership it is only their progress towards the requirement as of time of admittance that matters

 

 

If you understood historical development, you would not make such a statement. The historic context is part of the admittance process.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Monday, March 14, 2022 6:47 AM

Putin says he wants to discuss the surrender

Zelensky replied that was out of the question. Ukraine has no way to handle that many prisoners. 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, March 13, 2022 9:54 PM

charlie hebdo
History is relevant except for people who ignore it.  Few member states of the former USSR except the three Baltic states have had any experience with representative government. Democracy does not emerge out of nowhere.



Which has nothing to do with the requirements for NATO membership it is only their progress towards the requirement as of time of admittance that matters

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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, March 13, 2022 9:49 PM

Euclid
US undersecretary of state acknowledges there are biological warfare labs in Ukraine
 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/10/nula-m10.html

 

The exchange between herself and Marco Rubio was clarifying they were regular medical research labs that every country has to research infectious biological agents and have nothing to do with biological warfare

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, March 13, 2022 6:48 PM

charlie hebdo

Analogous to your way of approaching  this would have been negotiating with Germany in 1941 to see how much territory they should retain. You want to reward aggression. 

 

 
I don’t know if it is analogous at all.  It depends on what the terms are. And without Putin being able to play the nuclear threat card of today, NATO may have brought Ukraine into NATO by now, which might have countered Putin’s aggression toward Ukraine.   Also, just to be clear, this is not something that I am advocating.  I am just calling attention to its existence as as being a possible solution.  If you want to know both sides of the argument, you have to listen to both sides of it.   It is up to Ukraine to decide what they want to be, and who they want to be friends with.  Right now, that is neither Russia nor NATO.  So it may be easier to choose if they had to. 
 

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