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The designated (off-topic) Ukraine war thread Locked

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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, March 20, 2022 12:19 PM
From this link:
 
 
QUOTE:
 
 
NATO is helping to coordinate Ukraine’s requests for assistance and is supporting Allies in the delivery of humanitarian and non-lethal aid. Individual NATO member countries are sending weapons, ammunition, medical supplies and other vital military equipment to Ukraine.
 
 
MY QUESTION:  I as I understand the linked document, NATO will not provide weapons to Ukraine, but individual NATO countries are free to do so.  Apparently this would be an action independent of NATO.  Putin has said that he will consider any country providing weapons to Ukraine to be a legitimate target for attack by Russia. 
 
Let’s say an individual NATO country provided weapons to Ukraine; and Russia then attacked that NATO country in retaliation.  Would that retaliatory attack against the NATO country providing weapons to Ukraine trigger Article 5 of the NATO agreement and thus command all NATO countries to attack Russia? 
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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, March 19, 2022 10:14 PM

It's about damn time that someone referenced Doctor Strangelove! Do you suppose Ukraine has a large supply of precious bodily fluids and that's why Putin wants it? 

Judging from his macho-man photos with his shirt off, that might not be much of a stretch. 

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Saturday, March 19, 2022 9:29 PM

Converting the key routes to 1435mm gauge would definitely help with integrating with western Europe, although some benefit could be achieved by using gauge changing wheel sets such as used between Spain and France.

The Ukrainians have enough animosity towards the Russians (Holomodor) that they may welcome the change in gauge to keep the Russians out.

The Russians may object as the 5' gauge was implemented as a buffer to invasion from the west. OTOH, the change in gauge at the Russian border would still be an impediment - though I don't see any rational person wanting to invade Russia - witness what happened to the Corsican and Austrian Corporals.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:56 PM

Question for into the future, knowing there is a ways to go:

If Ukraine is able to pull this out and survive as a country (which we are all hoping for), they are going to need a lot of help rebuilding and recovering.

Would there be any advantage to Ukraine either adding a third rail or converting at least key routes of their rail system to 1435 mm?

It would enhance economic integration with Europe, allow for easier delivery of reconstruction supplies.

 

Strategically, it also might make it at least a bit more difficult for the Russians to try something this diabolical in the future as they would not be able to rely on the Ukraine rail system connections to the Russin 1520 mm system for resupply of their invading forces.

Could the IMF or World Bank perhaps finance such an endeavor?

Thoughts? Pros? Cons?

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 19, 2022 7:47 PM

rixflix
This thread's High Command seems to be asleep again. C'mon guys, what about them hypersonic weapons. General Buck Turgidson: "Gee, I wish we had one of them."

Rick

Once launched, I doubt the Russians have any definitive idea of what they are going to hit.  Power without command and control is nothing.

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Posted by Backshop on Saturday, March 19, 2022 7:34 PM

I doubt if Russia has enough of them to make an impact (pun intended).

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Posted by rixflix on Saturday, March 19, 2022 7:17 PM

This thread's High Command seems to be asleep again. C'mon guys, what about them hypersonic weapons. General Buck Turgidson: "Gee, I wish we had one of them."

Rick

rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, March 18, 2022 10:32 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
charlie hebdo

The word forces in this context would almost always refer to armed forces, not the diplomatic corps or NGO workers.

 

OK, well when I say "green cheese" some people think I mean the moon.

 

You sound like Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland: "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, March 18, 2022 12:29 AM

charlie hebdo

The word forces in this context would almost always refer to armed forces, not the diplomatic corps or NGO workers.

OK, well when I say "green cheese" some people think I mean the moon.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:21 PM

The word forces in this context would almost always refer to armed forces, not the diplomatic corps or NGO workers.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Thursday, March 17, 2022 6:05 PM

charlie hebdo
Explain what you meant by "sent in forces" with sources for this comment, please?

State Department employees as well as using NGO's that were there, they had a significant impact in turning back....Putins crowd.   Should they have got that deeply involved who knows.   However the Europeans were asking the same question on involvement and pushing back on some items which led to the infamous phone call intercept.

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, March 17, 2022 11:32 AM

For those of you that have not followed this carefully.   Hillary Clinton as Sec of State with Victoria Nueland [sic!] together royally ticked off Putin when they sent in forces to reverse all the ground work he did with attempting to install his own stooge as leader of Ukraine. 

Explain what you meant by "sent in forces" with sources for this comment, please?

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 11:41 PM

CMStPnP
  Lavrov is a professional liar

"A diplomat is an honest man sent abroad to lie for his country" - Sir Henry Wooten

 

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 11:36 PM
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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:11 PM

CMStPnP
 
BaltACD

Any wonder that the GOP is soft on Putin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMWYXdf0Do  

They were attempting to reset the relationship which I think was equally dumb with the administration before with it's mis-spelled "reset" button.    Lavrov is a professional liar and can't be trusted on anything he says or does.   The corrupt Russians have always loved him for his ability to misdirect the West because the West always naively looks past his last set of lies and resets their trust in him repeatedly.    Putin should have been shunned permanently once he rewrote the laws to allow him to serve indefinitely or it became clear he was looting from the Treasury.    Once you steal state funds in any country your a marked man after you leave the political arena unless your able to corrupt who remains left in power or have some sort of a deal with them.    That is how Yeltsin escaped punishment and the deal he had with Putin was to allow Yeltsin's family to never be prosecuted for stealing state funds or abusing their position.    So one could say, this all started in the Clinton Administration with the Boris Yeltsin agreement, which we probably were not aware of at the time but we are now.

For those of you that have not followed this carefully.   Hillary Clinton as Sec of State with Victoria Nueland together royally ticked off Putin when they sent in forces to reverse all the ground work he did with attempting to install his own stooge as leader of Ukraine.   Putin viewed both Clinton and Nueland directly responsible for meddling in Ukraines politics (exactly what Mr. Putin was doing) and sparking the Madian protest / uprising.   Remember the infamous "F Europe" comment from Ms Nuelands intercepted phone conversation over an unsecure line back then.   It was crystal clear at that time she was neck deep in Ukraines politics and selection of it's next leader at the behest of Hillary was the suspicion.     Thats what initially set off Putin down this path of escalating confrontation with the West....rightly or wrongly as Putin was doing the same thing with his side but lost the battle of minds.    Thats what led up to Trump and the Republicans attempting a later reset of their own.    It was common knowledge at the time who ticked off Putin and why and potentially the ship might be set right again via the opposing political party.    The reset didn't work because at the heart of Putin's anger was the ridiculous concept that Ukraine was not a state and belonged to Russia.

GOP = Government of Putin

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 7:19 PM
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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 7:32 AM

BaltACD

Any wonder that the GOP is soft on Putin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMWYXdf0Do 

They were attempting to reset the relationship which I think was equally dumb with the administration before with it's mis-spelled "reset" button.    Lavrov is a professional liar and can't be trusted on anything he says or does.   The corrupt Russians have always loved him for his ability to misdirect the West because the West always naively looks past his last set of lies and resets their trust in him repeatedly.    Putin should have been shunned permanently once he rewrote the laws to allow him to serve indefinitely or it became clear he was looting from the Treasury.    Once you steal state funds in any country your a marked man after you leave the political arena unless your able to corrupt who remains left in power or have some sort of a deal with them.    That is how Yeltsin escaped punishment and the deal he had with Putin was to allow Yeltsin's family to never be prosecuted for stealing state funds or abusing their position.    So one could say, this all started in the Clinton Administration with the Boris Yeltsin agreement, which we probably were not aware of at the time but we are now.

For those of you that have not followed this carefully.   Hillary Clinton as Sec of State with Victoria Nueland together royally ticked off Putin when they sent in forces to reverse all the ground work he did with attempting to install his own stooge as leader of Ukraine.   Putin viewed both Clinton and Nueland directly responsible for meddling in Ukraines politics (exactly what Mr. Putin was doing) and sparking the Madian protest / uprising.   Remember the infamous "F Europe" comment from Ms Nuelands intercepted phone conversation over an unsecure line back then.   It was crystal clear at that time she was neck deep in Ukraines politics and selection of it's next leader at the behest of Hillary was the suspicion.     Thats what initially set off Putin down this path of escalating confrontation with the West....rightly or wrongly as Putin was doing the same thing with his side but lost the battle of minds.    Thats what led up to Trump and the Republicans attempting a later reset of their own.    It was common knowledge at the time who ticked off Putin and why and potentially the ship might be set right again via the opposing political party.    The reset didn't work because at the heart of Putin's anger was the ridiculous concept that Ukraine was not a state and belonged to Russia.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 7:25 AM

Psychot
You're missing my point. There have always been Soviet/Russia sympathizers on the left; their proliferation on the right is a relatively new thing.

Actually, the United Russia Party is right wing and that is probably why initially.  However as you can see in most Western Countries the fact they are known to be looting the Russian Treasury as were some of the Ukranian Oligarchs looting Ukraines Treasury not too long ago..........Money attracts politicians like flys to you know what and it does not matter their party affiliation.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 10:31 PM

Any wonder that the GOP is soft on Putin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMWYXdf0Do

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:49 PM

Psychot

 The fact that this discussion is even taking place in the U.S. is a huge propaganda victory for the Russians. Yet it continues, because the anti-Ukraine narrative fits the worldview of a certain segment of our population and the self-interest of certain U.S. politicians.

 

  If this war continues wonder how many of these self-interest pols will be compared to Chamberlan?
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Posted by Psychot on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:43 PM

CMStPnP

 

 
Euclid
It seems to me there are three different distinctions within this topic:   1)   Biological research having nothing to do with military weapon applications.  In other words, bio labs researching medicines and vaccines for fighting disease.       2)   Biological research into dangerous pathogens and to explore how they may be used in biological weapons of war.  Here, the potential for such research could be to use it for either the creation of biological weapons, the defense against them, or both.       3)   The research and manufacture of biological weapons.     It seems to me that the actual verified facts are related to item #2.  If so, there may not be any illegality or controversy to this at all.  It would depend on the laws pertaining to such research.  #2 would also explain Victoria Nuland’s concern that the biological materials in the labs might end up in Russian hands, a concern that would be unlikely if the labs are related to item #1.  There is no evidence that these labs were actually manufacturing agent for use in chemical weapons.   However, it seems to me that the discovery of these labs in the context of a war would be at least highly significant.   Apparently, it was Russia that first broke the news of the labs, and they did so under the, at least, the implied premise that the U.S. was conducting research to develop agents for use in chemical weapons, or even manufacturing them.   I perceive a lot of the response to this news to be denial that any of the three items above are true.  And out of this denial has come the allegation that Russia made up the whole story to use as a false flag to cover up their plans to actually use chemical weapons to win the war in Ukraine.  In other words, Russia will attack with chemical weapons and claim that that the Ukrainians did it.  So, under this theory, the Ukrainian labs, allegedly found, will be the source of the weapons Ukraine will use against Russia in Ukraine.  Therefore the allegations for the existence of these labs will set the stage for making it believable that Ukraine used chemical weapons, when it will actually be the Russians who will have used them. 

 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lUt6DMfrBg

It was crystal clear it was the first instance labs related to civilian pathogens and it was made even clearer if you listened to Senator Warners remarks     How you got this all messed up in your head is anyones guess  no matter because some on FOX News are confused as well recommend you review the CSPAN coverage

 

The fact that this discussion is even taking place in the U.S. is a huge propaganda victory for the Russians. Yet it continues, because the anti-Ukraine narrative fits the worldview of a certain segment of our population and the self-interest of certain U.S. politicians.

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Posted by Psychot on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:39 PM

CMStPnP

 

 
Euclid
Sources, facts, definition of terms??

 

He has problems with balance as he missed the Putin Poster Child in Europe, whom is the Liberal former head of the SPD Gerhard Schroder.    How you could have missed that is bewildering unless your intention is to be partisan here.

 

You're missing my point. There have always been Soviet/Russia sympathizers on the left; their proliferation on the right is a relatively new thing.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:21 PM

Of course Ukraine has a peaceful Bio-lab.  So do most of the other countries in the world.  I imagine most are researching C-19 and looking for pockets of infection, spread, new variants, vaccinations, etc.  Along that line wonder how many Russian soldiers are getting sick?

I expect everyone in the Ukraine and western Europe not vaccinated being involved in this war are at high risk for C-19.  That is especially the older persons and very young children.  No way to handle all possible severe cases in hospitals.

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Posted by JayBee on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:59 PM

New video on Ward Caroll's channel where he interviews Justin Bronk on the limited Russian use of airpower over Ukraine, why the transfer of MiG-29s from Poland to Ukraine isn't as easy as it seems, and why a No-Fly Zone is a bad idea.

Bronk Interview

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Posted by JayBee on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:50 PM

For France, the Putin apologist was Marine Le Pen, for Hungary it is Victor Orban. Both of these have now changed their tune. Ms. Le Pen changed her tune when with the Invasion of Ukraine her approval rating in the polls was cut in half. Mr. Orban also changed his tune at the same time, perhaps because if Russia takes over Ukraine Hungary will be neighbors. But the biggest Putin syncophant is Britain's Prime Minister Boris Johnson who is BFF with the son of ex-KGB Agent Alexey Lebedev, and even raised the son to the British peerage. There is a reason that the US and most members of NATO limit sensitive intelligence information that they share with Britain. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:41 PM

Euclid
But I am not convinced that their reason for lying is to create a false flag pretext for using chemical weapons and then blaming it on Ukraine.   If a bunch of Ukrainians are suddenly gassed to death by Russia, do you really think Russia believes they can blame that on being done by Ukraine just to make Russians look bad?

Yes.

 

Euclid
Give me a plausible explanation of the exact motive and actions behind this false flag.

Claims like this are not supposed to convince us or anyone else outside of Russia.  They only have to convince the Russian population who already gets all their news from RT or other state media.  

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:24 PM
I think there is a lot more to this story besides whether Russia is lying about the purpose of the bio labs in Ukraine.  I certainly think it is possible that they are lying.
 
But I am not convinced that their reason for lying is to create a false flag pretext for using chemical weapons and then blaming it on Ukraine.   If a bunch of Ukrainians are suddenly gassed to death by Russia, do you really think Russia believes they can blame that on being done by Ukraine just to make Russians look bad?  How is this alleged false flag pretext supposed to work?  It makes no sense.  Give me a plausible explanation of the exact motive and actions behind this false flag.
 

If anything, the reason Russia is making this charge is probably to justify their attack on Ukraine by saying it is preemptive self-defense against being attacked by Ukraine with chemical weapons.  That would be my guess.  It is just propaganda to shift blame for the war. 

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 1:50 PM

CMStPnP

 

 
Backshop

I believe that #2 is correct.  I've also read (can't find it now), that the reason the Russians knew about the labs is that they were former Soviet labs.

 

 

 

No they are innocent civilian labs.   If the Russians stripped the country of Nuclear weapons it is not going to leave the bio-weapons labs behind if there were any.   Further the Soviet Union got rid of most of them I believe prior to dissoloution.   Anyways, watch the youtube clip I posted above.   The United States would not share bio weapons data with Ukraine and then have reservations about giving state of the art weapons to Ukraine due to it's corruption issue.    Think this through, it does not make any sense.

 

Rereading the options, you are correct.  I agree with #1.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:59 PM

Backshop

I believe that #2 is correct.  I've also read (can't find it now), that the reason the Russians knew about the labs is that they were former Soviet labs.

 

No they are innocent civilian labs.   If the Russians stripped the country of Nuclear weapons it is not going to leave the bio-weapons labs behind if there were any.   Further the Soviet Union got rid of most of them I believe prior to dissoloution.   Anyways, watch the youtube clip I posted above.   The United States would not share bio weapons data with Ukraine and then have reservations about giving state of the art weapons to Ukraine due to it's corruption issue.    Think this through, it does not make any sense.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:56 PM

Euclid
Sources, facts, definition of terms??

He has problems with balance as he missed the Putin Poster Child in Europe, whom is the Liberal former head of the SPD Gerhard Schroder.    How you could have missed that is bewildering unless your intention is to be partisan here.

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