Convicted One SD70Dude despite their differences with each other and the nation as a whole there is very little separatist action. You do realize there is frequent "bluster" within California itself about splitting into two separate states? Not to say that it will ever happen. But the discussion never seems to completely go away, either.
SD70Dude despite their differences with each other and the nation as a whole there is very little separatist action.
You do realize there is frequent "bluster" within California itself about splitting into two separate states?
Not to say that it will ever happen. But the discussion never seems to completely go away, either.
In recent years there's also been a fair amount of 'talk' from the usual right-wing sources about Alberta separating from Canada. It's equally unlikely to happen and just as stupid, but it won't go away.
Call me back when a mainstream political party with a fair number of seats incorportates separatism into their platform, or if the separatist movement turns violent.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
EuclidBut the point to me is that this shows how Putin views this today, and it thus sheds light on his motivation for suddenly murdering Ukraine. The history of NATO and its relationship with Russia sheds the same sort of light on what motivated Putin today. It does not justify what he is doing, but it does explain why he is doing it.
Not exactly, not much to do with NATO actually if you look back on the historical timeline. While NATO is indeed being used as a justification for Putins invasion, initially the conflict and tug of war over Ukraine and contest over who gets Ukraine was about it's political orientation West vs East and it really started before 2004. NATO was not even a topic of discussion. It was which orientation economically and politically would the country follow. That is what led the the Maidan protests and the involvement of Victoria Nueland. Initially EU wanted to back away from the protests after it saw the heavy hand of Moscow attempting to support it's stooge but then along came Victoria Nueland and her small force of partners to help hand pick the next government after Moscows stooge fled to Russia and the government was overthrown. The roots of the Maidan protests actually started way back in 2004 when an amendment was made to the Ukrainian constitution in response to the then Orange revolution. NATO was not even a discussion topic until 2008. The amendments of 2004 were yanked in 2010 in a highly controversial measure which started the unrest all over again. Putin became increasingly frustrated with Ukraine not because of it's persuit of NATO membership but because his meddling in Ukrainian affairs and his political stooges kept losing politically as well as his concept of pulling Ukraine into the Russian orbit away from the West. Which actually explains his rage now. This conflict is the culmination of a close to 20 year effort by the Russian government meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine attempting to make it a vassal state like Belorus.
Flintlock76 Some insights from US Army LtCol. Nicholas Moran, a veteran tanker and military historian. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4
Some insights from US Army LtCol. Nicholas Moran, a veteran tanker and military historian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4
Here's an irony. On the one hand, Russia said that they wanted to join NATO. On the other, they didn't want it to move east. Which one is it. If they weren't the neighborhood thug, they wouldn't have to worry about it.
CMStPnP Euclid Here is a detailed discussion of the issue of what NATO agreed to regarding expansion eastward. Did NATO promise Russia never to expand to the east? | DW News 620,768 views Mar 18, 2022 Just before his army invaded Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin outlined his motivations in a speech. His main argument: NATO's eastward expansion. He blamed the extension of the military alliance ever closer to Russia’s borders and accused Western leaders of breaking alleged promises to never do so. But experts disagree on whether that’s true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVt-WXTLIZM Yes and No. DW almost has it correct but misses on the major point. As mentioned in an earlier post that agreement was between the now defunct Soviet Union and NATO and it was limited to the territory of East Germany which was the only country at the time the Russians were concerned about because of WWII history. So that agreement mentioned was to keep the former East German state free of NATO troops. At that time the then Soviet Union did not anticipate a full collapse of Eastern Europe and did not want the West to be seen as a victor, moving in it's troops prior to a Soviet pullback or the Soviet pullback as a retreat. That is the context of that agreement. But lets say that was the intent.
Euclid Here is a detailed discussion of the issue of what NATO agreed to regarding expansion eastward. Did NATO promise Russia never to expand to the east? | DW News 620,768 views Mar 18, 2022 Just before his army invaded Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin outlined his motivations in a speech. His main argument: NATO's eastward expansion. He blamed the extension of the military alliance ever closer to Russia’s borders and accused Western leaders of breaking alleged promises to never do so. But experts disagree on whether that’s true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVt-WXTLIZM
One thing that has always mystified me - When a member of the Security Council of the UN is the object of a resolution about its combat activities against another member of the US - Why does that member have veto power on the resolution?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Flintlock76The thing is, the Confederacy might very well have gotten away with it if they hadn't fired on Fort Sumter. Dumb, dumb, dumb thing to do.
I feel the need to tread lightly for obvious reasons.But I suspect that Putin feels as justified doing what he's doing (the re-unification bit) as the Union did back in our epoch of reunification.
Clearly, there are differences, I'm not claiming identical circumstances, etc. Just that similarities exist, for someone motivated to see them.
I also have to think back to how the real estate we now know as California originally came under our jurisdiction (pre statehood).
The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo comes to mind.
Convicted One mvlandsw t I wonder what the response of our government would be if Texas or California broke away from the US Likely very similar to what happened in the 1860s.....a war of "reunification".....
mvlandsw t I wonder what the response of our government would be if Texas or California broke away from the US
Likely very similar to what happened in the 1860s.....a war of "reunification".....
The thing is, the Confederacy might very well have gotten away with it if they hadn't fired on Fort Sumter. Dumb, dumb, dumb thing to do.
SD70Dudedespite their differences with each other and the nation as a whole there is very little separatist action.
mvlandswt I wonder what the response of our government would be if Texas or California broke away from the US
SD70DudePutin obviously has never heard of the principle of "if you love something, set it free"......
Or maybe Vlad the Impaler remembers the old gag version:
"If you love something, set it free. If it comes back it was yours all along. If it doesn't, hunt it down and kill it!"
Leo_Ames I thought their nuclear weapons were dismantled by Russia with US grant money, before Putin's rise?
I thought their nuclear weapons were dismantled by Russia with US grant money, before Putin's rise?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
Ukraine has never truly been a part of Russia. Even under the USSR it was a separate republic. The region was conquered by the Russian empire hundreds of years ago and there have been off and on rebellions and attempts at independence ever since.
Texas and California both joined the U.S. of their own free will, and despite their differences with each other and the nation as a whole there is very little separatist action.
Over 90% of Ukrainians voted for independence in a 1991 referendum, and Ukraine subsequently agreed to give its ex-Soviet nuclear weapons back to Russia in exchange for a guarantee of independence (so much for that).
Putin obviously has never heard of the principle of "if you love something, set it free"......
Your comparison is actually quite apt in reference to Ukraine's two breakaway eastern provinces, where the nation has been fighting a small-scale war against Russian-backed and armed rebels for nearly a decade, this war having blown up in the aftermath of the Ukrainian people rising up and ousting their former Putin-puppet of a President.
I certainly don't agree with Putin's actions but I wonder what the response of our government would be if Texas or California broke away from the US and started buying weapons and holding military exercises with China or Russia.
CMStPnP BaltACD Putin and his supporters are the ones that think it is their devine duty to reestablish the USSR. The USSR that broke apart for its own reasons. The corruption in the 21st Century Russia is what has permitted Putin and his cronies to suck the wealth out of all aspects of the country into their own pockets. Similar corruption is what broke apart the USSR and create the individual countries such as Ukraine. More insight into Mr Putin.... So what do you do if your head of state and really want to ride in a Rolls Royce but you don't want the stigma of buying one because it is not Russian. Well you invent your own home grown version of a Rolls Royce at a cost of $800 million from the Treasury, of course!!! No reason to deprive yourself...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVzfPeydndk
BaltACD Putin and his supporters are the ones that think it is their devine duty to reestablish the USSR. The USSR that broke apart for its own reasons. The corruption in the 21st Century Russia is what has permitted Putin and his cronies to suck the wealth out of all aspects of the country into their own pockets. Similar corruption is what broke apart the USSR and create the individual countries such as Ukraine.
More insight into Mr Putin....
So what do you do if your head of state and really want to ride in a Rolls Royce but you don't want the stigma of buying one because it is not Russian.
Well you invent your own home grown version of a Rolls Royce at a cost of $800 million from the Treasury, of course!!! No reason to deprive yourself......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVzfPeydndk
And then it still runs like a Lada from Garage 54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oetcXjJp9s
BaltACDPutin and his supporters are the ones that think it is their devine duty to reestablish the USSR. The USSR that broke apart for its own reasons. The corruption in the 21st Century Russia is what has permitted Putin and his cronies to suck the wealth out of all aspects of the country into their own pockets. Similar corruption is what broke apart the USSR and create the individual countries such as Ukraine.
tree68 Backshop Russia just can't let go that they are no longer the Russian Empire or the USSR. I've gotten the impression that it's not Russia as a whole - more likely a few folks who have that problem. Thing is, that's who's in power right now. They aren't about to listen to the people if it stands in the way of their desire for power.
Backshop Russia just can't let go that they are no longer the Russian Empire or the USSR.
I've gotten the impression that it's not Russia as a whole - more likely a few folks who have that problem. Thing is, that's who's in power right now. They aren't about to listen to the people if it stands in the way of their desire for power.
Putin and his supporters are the ones that think it is their devine duty to reestablish the USSR. The USSR that broke apart for its own reasons. The corruption in the 21st Century Russia is what has permitted Putin and his cronies to suck the wealth out of all aspects of the country into their own pockets. Similar corruption is what broke apart the USSR and create the individual countries such as Ukraine.
BackshopRussia just can't let go that they are no longer the Russian Empire or the USSR.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Euclid: My comment was not directed to you.
CMStPnP Backshop It's telling that so many Eastern European countries joined NATO the first chance that they got. They did it voluntarily, unlike when they joined the Warsaw Pact. Add Quote to your Post Russia threatened each on of them with implied invasion prior to them joining NATO which drove them into NATO's arms further. Did you read Medeveds comments recently about Poland learning to retun to the embrace of Russia? Very insulting to their history and very arrogant thing to say. Thats a big reason why Poland is in NATO today. Russian government and a chunk of the extremist Russians in power are their own worst enemy. Medeved also stated on his tour of the Kuril Isles years ago that Russia had no intention of returning them to Japan. Again, very arrogant and shortsighted thing to say publicly to a Pacific Powerhouse that could invest tons of money to build up Eastern Russia and is willing to do so after settlement of their border dispute which land wise is tiny. They complain the United States is holding back Russia............it is actually their arrogance, public comments and foriegn policy choices with countries other than the United States.
Backshop It's telling that so many Eastern European countries joined NATO the first chance that they got. They did it voluntarily, unlike when they joined the Warsaw Pact. Add Quote to your Post
Russia threatened each on of them with implied invasion prior to them joining NATO which drove them into NATO's arms further. Did you read Medeveds comments recently about Poland learning to retun to the embrace of Russia? Very insulting to their history and very arrogant thing to say. Thats a big reason why Poland is in NATO today.
Russian government and a chunk of the extremist Russians in power are their own worst enemy. Medeved also stated on his tour of the Kuril Isles years ago that Russia had no intention of returning them to Japan. Again, very arrogant and shortsighted thing to say publicly to a Pacific Powerhouse that could invest tons of money to build up Eastern Russia and is willing to do so after settlement of their border dispute which land wise is tiny. They complain the United States is holding back Russia............it is actually their arrogance, public comments and foriegn policy choices with countries other than the United States.
Having a seat and voice in the UN General Assembly is all the bonafides that a country needs to be considered a sovereign nation in the eyes of the world.
charlie hebdo Convicted One Euclid I doubt that anybody here believes that. I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open. It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are fully informed. Which (IMO) in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board. We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know. So let's have a straight, definitive answer to the question I posed above, plus one more. Do you think think videos of cities in Ukraine and interviews with Ukrainians are real?
Convicted One Euclid I doubt that anybody here believes that. I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open. It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are fully informed. Which (IMO) in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board. We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.
Euclid I doubt that anybody here believes that.
I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open. It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are fully informed. Which (IMO) in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board.
We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.
So let's have a straight, definitive answer to the question I posed above, plus one more. Do you think think videos of cities in Ukraine and interviews with Ukrainians are real?
BackshopIt's telling that so many Eastern European countries joined NATO the first chance that they got. They did it voluntarily, unlike when they joined the Warsaw Pact. Add Quote to your Post
Again knowing that I am repeating myself. But If I really laid out my true feelings on this matter, I'd be "back in chains".
Convicted One Years ago I dated a gal who emigrated here from Lech Walesa's Poland. And I can tell you with certainty that the concept we knew as the "Iron Curtain" was seen in an entirely different perspective from within than the one we westerners were conditioned to see it as.
Years ago I dated a gal who emigrated here from Lech Walesa's Poland. And I can tell you with certainty that the concept we knew as the "Iron Curtain" was seen in an entirely different perspective from within than the one we westerners were conditioned to see it as.
Convicted OneAND SINCE OUR SOURCES REFUSE to be more deliberate in that area,
Your supposed to search for the truth. Not sit back and listen to what others tell you.
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