charlie hebdonot the false eauivalency perspective you and others choose to espouse.
Pure excelsior. Consider our dialog concluded.
Convicted OneWe are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.
My ISP is AT&T and it reaches well into the U.S. Army, Poland, Ukraine and into several recent Russian emigre communities. I stay away from attempting direct contacts with Russia because at some point that means hackers and trolls. So why are you having problems getting first person accounts here and why do you have to even rely on the media? Also, BTW, most news articles come with an email of the author in which you can also ask questions for their first person account if they choose to answer.
You see? I just don't buy the "Putin is the Boogieman" narrative. I don't believe that he gets up every morning and says "well, I'm the bad guy, so how can I outdo myself today?"
I have to suspect that for what ever reason, he feels his motives to be just . AND SINCE OUR SOURCES REFUSE to be more deliberate in that area, I suspect the claimed aura of mystery is likely crafted for effect more than we have been allowed to know
Yes news can be spun and shaded. However if you check news from a variety of sources in various countries, one finds a consensus.
I have a friend who works for CCTV in China. She has clearly explained how the government manages the news there. In the case of Ukraine, they were simply repeating translated news releases from Moscow until recently.
Another friend, Bob Woodward, has made it clear to me that the US governmental line is not simply repeated in the entire US press, though some unspecified media do.
There is a relatively objective reality, not the false eauivalency perspective you and others choose to espouse.
Charlie, don't take this personal, because it is in no way intended as such, but If I posted what I really think is going on, this thread would get closed down, and there is a good chance that I'd be placed on moderation.
Neither of which do I have much desire for.
Yes, I do think the pictures of damage are real. I just don't feel well enough informed to pass definitive judgement.
Years ago I dated a gal who emigrated here from Lech Walesa's Poland. And I can tell you with certainty that the concept we knew as the "Iron Curtain" was seen in an entirely different perspective from within than the one we westerners were conditioned to see it as.
So, it isn't hard for me to surmise that artistic privilege is still shading the "truth" prepared for our consumption. That's really about as indepth as I can go without risking the ire of swift and certain moderation.
Convicted One Euclid I doubt that anybody here believes that. I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open. It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are fully informed. Which (IMO) in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board. We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.
Euclid I doubt that anybody here believes that.
I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open. It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are fully informed. Which (IMO) in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board.
We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.
So let's have a straight, definitive answer to the question I posed above, plus one more. Do you think think videos of cities in Ukraine and interviews with Ukrainians are real?
EuclidI doubt that anybody here believes that.
I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open. It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are fully informed. Which (IMO) in a way reveals the folly of proposing to draw authorative conclusion on a rail message board.
charlie hebdoIs there someone here who actually thinks Russia was justified in launching an attack on another sovereign nation (sovereignty to which Russia was a signatory). If so, what is your source?
The narrative that agrees with Putin’s narrative need not convince people that Putin is justified in invading Ukraine. But it does explain why Putin thinks he is justified. Without that explanation, his actions make it impossible to know thy enemy.
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York1 John
Backshop I prefer to think of it as sentiment against a country that attacked another sovereign country for no reason and now is threatening the rest of the world with nuclear war.
I prefer to think of it as sentiment against a country that attacked another sovereign country for no reason and now is threatening the rest of the world with nuclear war.
I agree. The opinions on here are not racist or anti-Semitic or particularly anti-Russian. I for one sympathize with the brave Russians who demonstrate against the Putin regime.
Is there someone here who actually thinks Russia was justified in launching an attack on another sovereign nation (sovereignty to which Russia was a signatory). If so, what is your source?
Fr.Al Yes, but it has become a vehicle for anti-Russian bigotry. We would not tolerate racist or anti-Semitic sentiment here, nor should we.
Yes, but it has become a vehicle for anti-Russian bigotry. We would not tolerate racist or anti-Semitic sentiment here, nor should we.
There is a strong sense of community here, particularly among some members. As such, it might be of interest to see how "ol so-and-so" feels about a current event that is touching all our lives.
Since it is prohibited in the local Terms of Service to solicit traffic away from this site to a neutral venue, and since the Private Messaging system here is all but completely broken, that leaves very few alternatives.
So, I'm appreciative for the leeway and tolerance that the host has shown, up to this point.
I do agree with you that the acutely anti-Russian tone of several of these posts are both regrettable and unnecessary. But not completely unexpected, either.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo You act as though you are an expert or have accurate information sources. I see no evidence that you do. Nor are you in a better position to judge Putin's mental state than anyone on here. So now your upset because my opinions are persuasive. That is your counter here?
charlie hebdo You act as though you are an expert or have accurate information sources. I see no evidence that you do. Nor are you in a better position to judge Putin's mental state than anyone on here.
So now your upset because my opinions are persuasive. That is your counter here?
You can no more answer my observation in a factual manner, any more than you're able to refute Euclid's remarks with relevant facts.
Fr.Al I am not trying to provoke a fight. I just don't see why this topic has to be discussed in a forum dedicated to trains. As a railfan, I come here to get away from politics. As a priest, I don't come here to push my religion on anyone. Surely there are enough other places to discuss politics or religion. One man's opinion.
I am not trying to provoke a fight. I just don't see why this topic has to be discussed in a forum dedicated to trains.
As a railfan, I come here to get away from politics. As a priest, I don't come here to push my religion on anyone. Surely there are enough other places to discuss politics or religion. One man's opinion.
Fr.Al,
I understand your point, but this thread is not about politics or religion. It is about a monumental current event that is drawing a lot of attention. The thread was approved by the moderators for discussing this topic. Anyone who does not want to participate or be exposed to the conversation is free to just not open this thread.
EuclidBut the fact WION reports those diametrically opposed viewpoints supports the premise that they are fundamentally balanced and unbiased. So it makes both positions more likely to be true.
The channel is also owned by a Billionaire Member of India's Parliament whom belongs to one of it's major political parties. Which I guess you could roughly say is analogous to FOX NEWS and Roger Ailes prior to Roger Ailes departure. In my opinion it is still slightly more of a biased setup than FOX due to the much more direct political connection to India's government.
There are constant patrols along the Polish-Ukrainian border by AWACS and Elint planes. I'm sure they are constantly giving information about Russian movements and launches to Ukraine. They are also storing infor for "future use", if need be.
Although we are bending the Forum rules by allowing this off-topic thread in the first place, I must insist that we otherwise adhere to the guidelines of remaining civil, impersonal, and respectful in our discussions here. If this thread degenerates, it will be deleted. I'm not going to spend my time cleaning up a fight in an off-topic thread.
That being said: Anyone who I perceive as trying to provoke a fight in order to get this thread killed will, instead, themselves be banned.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
CMStPnP Euclid An interesting report on the makeup of Putin from this source: Gravitas Plus | Ukraine War: Understanding Russian President Vladimir Putin 4,141,487 views Premiered Feb 26, 2022 How well do we understand Vladimir Putin? Why is he invading Ukraine? Why isn't he afraid of the consequences? Nothing answers these questions better than stories that have shaped Putin's life. Palki Sharma Upadhyay takes you inside Putin's mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJLnZ_rNLOU Indian source and slanted and more to the point the Australian FM had a discussion with India on their slanted opinion already as well as their absentations from UN votes denouncing Russia on Ukraine. You can Google articles about it. India is concerned about it's Russian weapons agreements without which it would have a hard time countering Pakistan. India is also concerned about third parties interjecting themselves into the Kashmir dispute. And last India is concerned about the Chinese tilt towards Pakistan and vice versa. So your not going to get an objective viewpoint from Gravitas. Do you have any close Indian friends. If you do suggest you ask some hard questions on how that country operates internally. I did not have to even ask the hard questions the info was volunteered to me by Indians that stated how fortunate it was they were American now and no longer had to live under Indian rule. Though they are all very highly proud of Indias accomplishments they know full well it is one of the most corrupt governments on Earth.
Euclid An interesting report on the makeup of Putin from this source: Gravitas Plus | Ukraine War: Understanding Russian President Vladimir Putin 4,141,487 views Premiered Feb 26, 2022 How well do we understand Vladimir Putin? Why is he invading Ukraine? Why isn't he afraid of the consequences? Nothing answers these questions better than stories that have shaped Putin's life. Palki Sharma Upadhyay takes you inside Putin's mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJLnZ_rNLOU
Indian source and slanted and more to the point the Australian FM had a discussion with India on their slanted opinion already as well as their absentations from UN votes denouncing Russia on Ukraine. You can Google articles about it. India is concerned about it's Russian weapons agreements without which it would have a hard time countering Pakistan. India is also concerned about third parties interjecting themselves into the Kashmir dispute. And last India is concerned about the Chinese tilt towards Pakistan and vice versa. So your not going to get an objective viewpoint from Gravitas.
Do you have any close Indian friends. If you do suggest you ask some hard questions on how that country operates internally. I did not have to even ask the hard questions the info was volunteered to me by Indians that stated how fortunate it was they were American now and no longer had to live under Indian rule. Though they are all very highly proud of Indias accomplishments they know full well it is one of the most corrupt governments on Earth.
I haven't joined this discussion since I don't have the knowledge about it that everyone else does, but here are a couple of PBS Frontline programs that I found interesting:
On the War:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-road-to-war/
Background On Putin (2015):
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-way/
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
kgbw49 One wonders how long it will take the Russian army to launch an offensive to cut the Ukraine supply lines from the west. They would not even have to take Lviv, only take control of about a 30-mile-wide corridor along the western boundary of Ukraine.
The whole attack plan looks like a 5th grader put it together. My guess is Putin had a major hand in it vs Russian Generals. Typically with an invasion you only have at most two fronts of attack not four. Increasing the fronts of attack greatly increases the complexity of execution and it does not have any more impact on the opposing force than two fronts of attack. So from the very start the Russians handicapped themselves with their plan. Further by attacking on four sides of a five sided country.........where exactly can the opposing force retreat to? The Ukrainians really canont retreat in an orderly fashion without the risk of rapid Russian envelopment of a chunk of their Army. Hence the Russians are actually driving part of the stiff resistence themselves along with their brutal execution of the war.
Secondly in the West it is so far geographically from their military equipment that they do not have adequate air support and my guess is the Ukrainian Air Defense in the West is particularly potent because not only do they have their systems they can rely in part on overlap from the Polish systems for early warning. Not saying that is going on but it could be. We have no idea what intel the Poles are passing across the border but the Poles as a NATO country definitely can see far into Ukrainian airspace as well as what is on the ground with ground radar and satellites. So that is my guess why you only see missiles being fired past the middle of Ukraine into West Ukraine and it is the newer Russian missile models they think can overcome NATO defenses. Seems to me the Russians think that NATO is assisting with air defense in the West Ukraine in some way.
charlie hebdoYou act as though you are an expert or have accurate information sources. I see no evidence that you do. Nor are you in a better position to judge Putin's mental state than anyone on here.
EuclidAn interesting report on the makeup of Putin from this source: Gravitas Plus | Ukraine War: Understanding Russian President Vladimir Putin 4,141,487 views Premiered Feb 26, 2022 How well do we understand Vladimir Putin? Why is he invading Ukraine? Why isn't he afraid of the consequences? Nothing answers these questions better than stories that have shaped Putin's life. Palki Sharma Upadhyay takes you inside Putin's mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJLnZ_rNLOU
Suggest that every one plan for some cyber attacks. Possibility is low but what the heck?
Euclid An interesting report on the makeup of Putin from this source: Gravitas Plus | Ukraine War: Understanding Russian President Vladimir Putin 4,141,487 views Premiered Feb 26, 2022 How well do we understand Vladimir Putin? Why is he invading Ukraine? Why isn't he afraid of the consequences? Nothing answers these questions better than stories that have shaped Putin's life. Palki Sharma Upadhyay takes you inside Putin's mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJLnZ_rNLOU
Better than Gravitas, look at this CNN story.
Putin's Fascism
Many on here dismiss CNN as a liberal fake news source, so ignore what the presenter says and just look at what evidence he presents. Personally I have ordered a copy of Mr. Snyder's book.
That has to be the clearest, most direct assessment of what we are seeing of Putin.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid How can NATO attack Russia to defend itself when Russia is not attacking NATO?
Well in the 1980's they used to have a status of forces agreement with the Soviet Union. Not sure if they do now with Russia but the agreement stipulated a DMZ from the actual border. So they had to keep their military x number of miles from the border or NATO could presume an attack was underway (5 miles or 12 miles forget which) US had to do the same. NATO did not have to wait for an actual border crossing.
Euclid Backshop They're also deluding themselves if they think that they could get away with a "limited" nuclear strike against a NATO country. What do you mean by that? How would that play out in detail?
Backshop They're also deluding themselves if they think that they could get away with a "limited" nuclear strike against a NATO country.
What do you mean by that? How would that play out in detail?
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