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The Wrong Paradigm Locked

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Posted by Gramp on Thursday, July 9, 2020 10:00 PM

For what it's worth, here is Tim Russert, hardly a conservative, reporting facts. 

https://www.facebook.com/rondwyersettingtherecordstraight/videos/tim-russert-dismantles-hillary-clinton/924520704342611/

I believe the Clintons have been a pox on the Democratic Party.

But, these things don't matter because they're "right on the issues".

And though I'm not an "activist" and am a male, I'm repulsed by the murderous expansion of abortion measures over time, and it is an example of the party's slide.  I think at some point in the future, abortion in our time will be looked on as being as repugnant as slavery is today.

D.C. can have its bloodsport.  

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, July 9, 2020 11:06 PM

Gramp

Euclid, returning to your opening post, my niece is a pulmonary nurse practitioner at a hospital in San Antonio that has an area treating the most serious Covid cases from the region.  Instead of using ventilators, they are using a machine where a person's blood is cycled through it to oxygenate the blood, then returns the blood to the person's body.  The process takes only a few minutes.

 

Gramp,

Thanks for that insight about a new way of treatment.  That would be the replacement for the old paradigm that I refer to in the title of this thread.  The implications of sticking to the old paradigm in light of evidence that it is causing thousands of needless deaths are amazing. 

About a week ago, I wrote a post for this thread to summarize what the topic of the thread was intended to be before being hijacked into a bitterly bickering, non-stop political argument filled with personal insults.  But I never made that post because the context was changing and the post did not seem to fit.  Below is that post in blue text.  It covers the essence of the information that you have offered in your comment above.  I never finished the part after I said I have a new question.  But the essence of that new question is my recent comments questioning the basis of reversing the re-opening and heading back into lockdown.  Here is that post I wrote a week ago, but never posted:  

 

I did not start this thread to embark on an endless argument about politics.  You all know there is no point in that.  At the start of this thread, what I call the “wrong paradigm” is the present paradigm of unquestioning use of ventilators for preventing cases of the virus from becoming fatal.  Ventilators work the lungs to overcome oxygen starvation.  But this virus impedes the flow of lung-pumped oxygen from leaving the lungs and entering the bloodstream.  So a ventilator can over work and destroy the lungs trying to raise the blood oxygen level without success.

The new paradigm goes first to the direct injection of oxygen into the blood rather than to work the lungs with a ventilator.  The theory is that this new paradigm would prevent the very high death rate for people who would otherwise be put onto ventilators under the old paradigm.  The number of lives potentially saved could be astoundingly high. 

But now I have a new question.  [never finished]

 

 

However, despite the thread being hijacked into political arguments, that experience has revealed something very important.  My evolving questions about the reasoning for the re-opening reversal involve questioning the decision making of the supposed experts who are locking down the country supposedly to save us. Earlier, I had a fairly open mind to the guidance of those experts, but no more. 

The way this thread turned completely political based on my just questioning the reasoning of those experts tells me that their decision making is also completely political.  Their actions are part of the political argument here.

So, I now realize that everything the experts are telling us is a politically motivated ploy to prevent the country from moving forward for as long as possible.  They are political animals, and a crashed economy serves their political interests. So, thank you to all you political hijackers.  You have done a great service in blowing the cover of this incredible deceit.  You have made it crystal clear for all to see.  I hope it is not too late to stop them.   

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 10, 2020 5:10 AM

Instead of arguing about Soros letus have our poster link to studies of the man.  That is both side's studies instead of listing your own opinions.  I have read some thoughtful research but leave it to others to bring forth those studies.

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, July 10, 2020 8:11 AM

jcburns

DemocratIC, Larry. It's the Democratic party. The late LaRouche would be voting Democratic. Not "Democrat."

When you deliberately misname the party, it's one of those "tells" like tossing out Mainstream Media (or worse.) I say, hmm, where could he have picked that up...

...could it be...

right wing talk radio? Fox news commentators?

(And if not, are you claiming that you just came up with that on your own?)

I'm sure you're a smart man, Larry. Repeat after me, Democratic Party. The Democrats. You can do it. I have faith in your grammar school education. Show some respect.

 

Leave poor Larry alone, he is a 'Trumpanzee' but ashamed to admit it.

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Posted by jcburns on Friday, July 10, 2020 8:42 AM

I prefer we just try to discuss issues without namecalling, but I hear you.

Euclid, I think you may be missing that treatment of COVID-19 is changing every day and is effectively different in hospitals all across the country. New methods are being tried and sometimes discarded on the fly. Papers are being published at a frantic pace. Science—peer-reviewed documented science is advancing much faster than normal.

Paradigms old and new are being tested and employed at overcrowded hospitals. I don't think any doctors are sticking to old modalities...but in a crisis like this, they are trying to figure it out.

 

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Posted by jcburns on Friday, July 10, 2020 9:05 AM

Just a point of fact: abortion access in the US generally has decreased since 1973, not increased. Because despite Roe vs Wade, forces have added restrictions and made access to this essential health care harder, not easier.

And the negative effects for women and society at large have included higher teen birth rates, lowered completion of education, lowered economic outcomes, lower female labor force participation. 

i think that outcome is repugnant.

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, July 10, 2020 10:11 AM

243129

 

 
jcburns

DemocratIC, Larry. It's the Democratic party. The late LaRouche would be voting Democratic. Not "Democrat."

When you deliberately misname the party, it's one of those "tells" like tossing out Mainstream Media (or worse.) I say, hmm, where could he have picked that up...

...could it be...

right wing talk radio? Fox news commentators?

(And if not, are you claiming that you just came up with that on your own?)

I'm sure you're a smart man, Larry. Repeat after me, Democratic Party. The Democrats. You can do it. I have faith in your grammar school education. Show some respect.

 

 

 

Leave poor Larry alone, he is a 'Trumpanzee' but ashamed to admit it.

There was a time when I agreed with many of the tenets of the Democrats.  Not so much any more.

I support the right to reproductive control of one's body, although I believe we should be pursuing ways to reduce unwanted conceptions.  I don't agree with abortion right up to the point of birth.

Trump - I will neither praise nor condemn.  I know - some of you have a problem with such a middle of the road position.  Anyone who doesn't outright condemn Trump must obviously be a "Trumpster," or whatever derogatory term you care to use.  After his election, economic indicators went up in this country - the stock market, employment, you name it.  All good things.

His personal foibles are of little concern to me.  

That he's done as well as he has given the ongoing onslaught he's faced is actually pretty impressive.  Is he the best choice for president?  No, although he was the best choice of what was offered.

The best person to be president is walking down the street (figuratively) in Lincoln, Nebraska (figuratively) right now.  But he/she certainly doesn't want a job where he/she is constantly second guessed by people who are upset because he/she won the election and therefore will do all they can to diminish his/her power.

Of course, you will interpret this as praise for the current POTUS - anyone who doesn't agree with you is clearly in the wrong, which is what's wrong with this country right now.

Which makes your reaction very highly predictable.  I see the same phenomenon regularly on Facebook and other fora.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by jcburns on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:12 AM

"Of course, you will interpret this as praise for the current POTUS - anyone who doesn't agree with you is clearly in the wrong, which is what's wrong with this country right now.

Which makes your reaction very highly predictable.  I see the same phenomenon regularly on Facebook and other fora."

Um, no. Sorry to thwart your predictions. I'm glad you support a woman's right to control her own reproductive system. Thank you for that.

I'm trying to parse your figurative "best person to be president," and I'm thinking back to all the people on both sides who put their hat in the ring in the past couple of years: Harris, Warren, Booker. Buttigieg, Romney, McMullin, O'Rourke—I don't think any are from Nebraska, but several put extensive policy papers out there that I think would have put more Americans back to work and given them health care and balanced the disturbing gap between the super-rich and the working class.

"done as well as he has given the ongoing onslaught"—do you mean the pandemic, or his political opponents demanding the transparency he promised, or...well, I can't tell. I have a lot of trouble (personally) holding Trump as a victim of an onslaught when his policies have been such an attack on so many who can least afford to be attacked.

I certainly condemn Trump's criminal acts and his attempts to cover them up. I would have hoped when a staffer says "sir, there's an emoluments clause," and "sir, you're not allowed to ask a quid pro quo" he would have turned course and stepped away from the crime. But that circuitry seems to be missing in his head, along with the apology and admitting your mistakes circuitry.

I certainly condemn his administration's staggeringly harsh response toward immigrants. My mom's family came over from Eastern Europe, and although they had it hard, they sure didn't have their kids stripped away from them and placed in inhumane secret facilities.

I keep saying "he really must admire Nixon's playbook...he keeps trying Nixonian approaches." Secrecy, stonewalling, the whole culture of non-disclosure agreements.

I think his "personal foibles" are multiple criminal acts against women—I'm talking severe criminal assault AND paying vast sums of hush money to try to cover it up and these acts would have him in jail if he wasn't in the White House at the moment.

Finally, and please hear this: I don't and never have had the attitude that anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly in the wrong. I absolutely hold sacrosanct your freedom to have an opinion. I appreciate your taking the time to express it.

And I also hold sacrosanct that there are observable facts. Facts. And we don't get to hold our own versions of those.

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:21 AM

jcburns
I'm trying to parse your figurative "best person to be president,"

It's an abstraction.  Meant to mean that somewhere, there's a non-politician who would do a wonderful job as POTUS, but wants no part of the BS that accompanies it.  Who wants it put out to the public that they wet their bed when they were four?

 

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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Posted by jcburns on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:34 AM

I agree the "BS level" and the transparency into one's past has certainly changed over the years.

But it impresses me that some of these youngsters have, at the very least, enough ego to get past it, and more than in olden days they have vast amounts of education, speak several languages, have traveled widely (including, ahem, train travel here and abroad) and their desire to make the system work for everyone is an inspiration.

I sure don't have those credentials.

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Posted by Euclid on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:39 AM

Observed facts are all relative to the perception of the observer. 

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Posted by jcburns on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:44 AM

There are empirical, observable facts. Science is real. Journalism is real. These facts can be gathered, and placed together. What you perceive of them is your opinion (which you're welcome to) but you don't get to alter the fact itself. Facts are sacred things.

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Posted by jcburns on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:50 AM

This is a compelling Biden ad. And hey, it has trains! Lots of trains. 1970s trains. 2000s trains. Probably the train-i-est political ad you'll see this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ef8xufT-KI

(And lots of family, love, hope, and possibility.)

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Posted by NKP guy on Friday, July 10, 2020 11:56 AM

tree68
 Meant to mean that somewhere, there's a non-politician who would do a wonderful job as POTUS, but wants no part of the BS that accompanies it.

   Such people are called city councilmen.

   Anyone else who wants to serve the people in some elected government position has to deal with politics; those who don't, fail.  Haven't we learned by now that there is no Man on the White Horse, no one's coming to save us, no one has all the answers.  

   Unexperienced men (it's never women) who want to run the country are a danger to everyone.  You wouldn't accept the Chief of Surgery at your hospital having zero medical experience; you wouldn't want an accountant who's never done anything similar before; you wouldn't accept as a pilot a guy who simply likes the idea of flying; etc.  

   The political realities of America at this time in our history show that unexperienced politicians or those who disdain politics get ground up in the gears, or pushed aside.  They achieve nothing. Meanwhile, the people suffer.

   David McCuollough once said that we Americans like people who are good at what they do.  I agree.  That's why I want someone as President who's good at politics, good at policy, and good at motivating people as well as uniting them.

   As for Mr. Trump in this regard:  Res ipsa loquitor.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 10, 2020 12:33 PM

My problem is that the current administration threw away the play book  on how to contain a pandemic.  Now the playbook was put together by a president Bush's team after 911 to address problems that came to light because of 911.  I REPEAT ORDERED BY PRESIDENT BUSH. After Katrina it was further modified.  The playbook was updated by Obama and passed to Trump.  Not only did the playbook get trashed by who knows whom but the CDC pandemic team was decimated by who ever was over the CDC.  So what did we get?  .  No action in January with a statement only 9 cases that will quickly disappear. 

What are some of the problems ?  Not enough ventilators, still lack of PPEs, delays in development of vaccines and treatments. AZ,  CA,  FL  -  medical facilities all near breaking points.

Now we have to stay isolated even from our children and grandchildren to prevent the probable consequences of recovery.  Death we can accept but not long term handicapts.  Breathing, headaches, reduced brain activity, weakness, fatique, blood clots, strokes,, heart  attacks, etc.  Recovery is our main worry as reported almost 25% of recovered persons have one or more of the many after effects.

My man Bush's team had all their work go into the trash can.  If you notice Bush has really remained in seclusion during this mess.  His pandemic playbook lost to history.

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, July 10, 2020 1:41 PM

blue streak 1
Not enough ventilators,

New York state had the opportunity and the money to buy 16,000 ventilators several years ago.  Instead, the money went toward a failed "development" in Buffalo.

Never mind the finding that ventilators were often exactly the wrong treatment, had NYS bought them then, the governor wouldn't have threatened to send the National Guard to take ventilators from upstate hospitals...

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Friday, July 10, 2020 1:55 PM

   Fascinating how people's minds work.  One person in power is accused of doing something evil and it's unforgivable.  Another does the same or a similar thing and it's "Welll..."  We decide who we like, then accept or reject accusations based on that decision.

   It's not just politics.  I think it's the main reason there are so many innocent people in prison.  The police "know" they have the right man, and it's "Leave him to us. We'll get him to confess."  The DA's office then accumulates all evidence that supports this view and doesn't follow up on any contradicting evidence.

   It's everywhere in our lives.  FORD: Fix Or Replace Daily.  GMC: Got a Mechanic Coming.  We tend to dismiss problems with cars we like and magnify others.

   Note that a few weeks ago I changed my signature back to the one I use for the political season.

_____________ 

  "A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Friday, July 10, 2020 3:01 PM

jcburns

There are empirical, observable facts.

One unfortunate fact is that the death toll from COVID-19 in NY state is about 2.5 times the COMBINED death toll in CA, TX and FL. A related fact is that the chance of a LTC facility resident dying from COVID-19 was about 6X higher in NJ than FL. Infection rates are rising in CA, TX and FL, but at current artes it will take FL about a month to catch up to NY on total confirmed infections and around a year to catch up with NY on fatalities.

To be taken seriously in the phsyical sciences, one must document reproducible results with estimates on measurement error. A lot of day to day science is reproducing earlier measurements with the hope of reducing the bounds on measurement error. A lot of interesting science comes up when experiments don't quite match theory - often meaning there is something wrong with theory.

A good example of data matching theory is Einstein's postulate that gravitational waves will propagate at the same speed as electromagnetic waves. A recent detection by LIGO and an orbiting gamma ray detector implies that the speeds are equal to better than 1 part in a quadrillion.

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