jcburnsWho Don't Want The Economy Going?
I should not have to explain that to anyone as politically attuned as you are.
Throughout this pandemic experience, there has been speculation surrounding the issue of asymptomatic infection. One aspect of this is the claim that people can contract the virus at one point, but do not develop any symptoms until sometime later, such as 1-3 weeks later. During that time of being asymptomatic, the subject has no way of knowing they are infected unless it is discovered by testing. Generally, the consensus is that the virus can be spread to others during the period of being asymptomatic in an infected person.
Then another round of speculation began that assumed people could contract the virus and never develop symptoms. So as a practical matter, they never experienced the disease at all. Again, the assumption is that these infected people can spread the virus to others.
We began testing around the first week of March this year. The virus arrived 3-4 months earlier.
Without testing, we could not have known how many cases we had in this country unless they developed symptoms. And if they never developed symptoms; and at the same time, large numbers of people were being infected by transmission; then there could have developed a very large pool of people who had the virus without anyone knowing it. There is speculation that the largeness of this pool caused heard immunity which further increased the infection spread without ever producing symptoms.
We are now testing in massive quantities and finding many cases that are always referred to as “new cases.” What we don’t know is whether these are actually new cases in terms of developing recently—or -- are only “new” in terms of being newly discovered by testing. The news information narrative clearly is that the day testing finds a case, that case originated that same day, or maybe just a very short time previous.
Then based on this assumption of the case being newly originated, the discourse concludes that the cases found while ramping up testing rates is proof that the virus is actually ramping up in infection rates. But what if some of the “new cases” found today existed back in January rather than a few days ago? There is a huge difference if we are trying to find the true real-time daily rate of new cases originating.
Being that we are now testing at a greatly accelerating rate; and that we have no test data prior to March; there is no evidence that we are currently experiencing a spike or second wave in new cases of infection originating. Without earlier testing, that evidence simply cannot exist.
Therefore, with this emerging trend calling for imposing new restrictions based on the so-called second wave, I no longer trust anything we are being told about this pandemic. I believe we are being deceived for an objective to prolong the economic shutdown.
Will all respect, Euclid, do you really believe in (secret?) cabals of people whose mission is to zero out the American economy?
Most socialists I've talked to (and I've talked to a few) want as many Americans working as possible.
Are they secret right wing cabals or left wing cabals or a mixture of the two?
jcburns ...left wing cabals....
Actually, mostly one person, initials GS. He has a stated goal of destroying the US.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Mr. Burns,
That is your snarky description. It has nothing to do with my beliefs. Why don't you want to discuss my points of substance above?
I did discuss your points of substance (at some length) after the first time you posted this.
you might want to scroll back.
Why did you post it twice?
And Larry, who is GS and why does he or she want our economy to stop? I know it can't be right-wing conspiratorial punching bag George Soros, who is very much a capitalist and thus wants the American economy to soar, soar, soar.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23P2XJ
I'm sure this must be the fakest news of them all.....
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I'm reasonably sure they didn't make all of this stuff up.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/connoisseur-chaos-14954.html
Or this.
https://www.mrc.org/commentary/over-30-major-news-organizations-linked-george-soros
Does New World Order mean anything to you?
I'm sure you'll say this guy is a right wing hack job, too.
http://www.philkentconsulting.com/wp/wordpress/?page_id=175
The point being, if even half what's in those pieces is true, it shows that George Soros is not a friend to Middle America.
"The point being, if even half what's in those pieces is true"...kinda looks like about 0%, so I guess we can relax. All the stuff extracted by so-called "expert hackers"? C'mon.
and then the second piece, clearly labeled "commentary," slurs award winning reporter Christiane Amanpour and award winning organization ProPublica, which is out there doing important work with admirable depth, ethics, and balance.
the third link you sent starts with "The liberal wealthy super-elites who control private tax-exempt foundations"...how much name calling can you fit in the first dozen words of this screed?
i guess if you buy into one of these, there's a cascade of stuff you can point to that echoes it. But in my opinion (in my opinion!) it requires you to put your brain in a drawer before donning your tinfoil hat.
tree68 I'm reasonably sure they didn't make all of this stuff up. https://www.city-journal.org/html/connoisseur-chaos-14954.html Or this. https://www.mrc.org/commentary/over-30-major-news-organizations-linked-george-soros Does New World Order mean anything to you? I'm sure you'll say this guy is a right wing hack job, too. http://www.philkentconsulting.com/wp/wordpress/?page_id=175 "> [/url] The point being, if even half what's in those pieces is true, it shows that George Soros is not a friend to Middle America.
"> [/url]
Would I be correct in assuming that you are a Trump supporter?
You do realize that 'New World Order' is a conspiracy theory, right?
243129 tree68 I'm reasonably sure they didn't make all of this stuff up. https://www.city-journal.org/html/connoisseur-chaos-14954.html Or this. https://www.mrc.org/commentary/over-30-major-news-organizations-linked-george-soros Does New World Order mean anything to you? I'm sure you'll say this guy is a right wing hack job, too. http://www.philkentconsulting.com/wp/wordpress/?page_id=175 "> [/url] The point being, if even half what's in those pieces is true, it shows that George Soros is not a friend to Middle America. Would I be correct in assuming that you are a Trump supporter?
Bingo! When he isn't driving his shortline engine or tourist railroad train, he's probably listening to OAN and Alex Jones. The guys who *think* Soros is a nazi? Right! Lots of Jews are nazis. He and Euclid and others are getting desperate because their idol is facing a rout and (hopefully) prison.
EuclidThroughout this pandemic experience, there has been speculation surrounding the issue of asymptomatic infection. One aspect of this is the claim that people can contract the virus at one point, but do not develop any symptoms until sometime later, such as 1-3 weeks later. During that time of being asymptomatic, the subject has no way of knowing they are infected unless it is discovered by testing. Generally, the consensus is that the virus can be spread to others during the period of being asymptomatic in an infected person.
It seems you don't want to accept this idea, but many years ago, I was told by my doctor that mono takes about two weeks after infection for the symptoms to show up, and during that time it is very contagious. I remember thinking at the time that that's a smart disease.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
243129Would I be correct in assuming that you are a Trump supporter?
You would be wrong.
But I have absolutely no love for the Democrats.
Which in many people's minds seems to make me a lover of Trump. It's not all black and white, as they say. There are shades of grey. Given the choice between Trump and another Republican, I'd likely vote for the other guy.
For now, however, we're stuck with Trump as the lesser of the evils, no matter what the MSM wants you to believe.
Soros, on the other hand, is pure evil, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on.
charlie hebdo he's probably listening to OAN and Alex Jones.
Besides, I don't listen to talk radio. There's too many nuts on both sides.
If you support the New World Order, then you're probably a fan of Soros.
I wouldn't say I'm a "fan" of Soros, because he's too far to the left for me. However, he has done a lot of good work promoting democracy and human rights in Central and Eastern Europe. For that reason, he's the subject of a great deal of dog-whistle anti-Semitism from the likes of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban (who ironically was the beneficiary of a Soros-funded scholarship) and other neo-fascist clowns of his ilk.
i wonder if the people who are so up in arms about Soros are equally troubled by the likes of Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers?
Paul of Covington Euclid Throughout this pandemic experience, there has been speculation surrounding the issue of asymptomatic infection. One aspect of this is the claim that people can contract the virus at one point, but do not develop any symptoms until sometime later, such as 1-3 weeks later. During that time of being asymptomatic, the subject has no way of knowing they are infected unless it is discovered by testing. Generally, the consensus is that the virus can be spread to others during the period of being asymptomatic in an infected person. It seems you don't want to accept this idea, but many years ago, I was told by my doctor that mono takes about two weeks after infection for the symptoms to show up, and during that time it is very contagious. I remember thinking at the time that that's a smart disease.
Euclid Throughout this pandemic experience, there has been speculation surrounding the issue of asymptomatic infection. One aspect of this is the claim that people can contract the virus at one point, but do not develop any symptoms until sometime later, such as 1-3 weeks later. During that time of being asymptomatic, the subject has no way of knowing they are infected unless it is discovered by testing. Generally, the consensus is that the virus can be spread to others during the period of being asymptomatic in an infected person.
I don't see why you think I don't accept that idea. I do indeed accept the idea that a person with the disease, but without symptoms can transmit the disease to others. That is exactly what I mean in my paragraph that you quoted above your comment. We have been told that repeatedly, and I have no reason to doubt it. I did not say that for the purpose of discrediting it. I said it to support the following argument challenging the second wave theory that is being foisted upon us:
The reason I said what I said was that people with the disease, but without symptoms can spread the disease without knowing it. They may never get symptoms, but they continue spreading the disease to many others. The only way that could be prevented is if those asymptomatic spreaders were to be found by testing. Then they would be isolated and that would stop their spreading.
But testing only began in early March and the virus arrived in December or November of last year. So that was 3-4 months with possible asymptomatic spreaders free to spread the disease without anybody knowing it was happening. There has been speculation that this caused a massive number of cases that never developed symptoms.
Therefore some of the new cases we are finding today may be cases that were contracted last December and have never developed symptoms. They may never cause sickness or death. Yet we are presenting them as new cases discovered today and contracted very recently, if not today. That assumption is totally unfounded.
Because we cannot say when cases found today actually originated, we have no basis to conclude that the number of cases found per day now is greater than the number of cases that would have found in a day back in December. Yet the news narrative is blindly making the assumption that new cases found today are developing at a faster rate than they were much earlier before massive testing started to ramp up. And then, based on that faulty premise, we are once again shutting down our economy.
And for the most part, this faulty conclusion is not even taken far enough to engage the fault. Instead, it is being driven mostly by the hysterical claim of “More new cases found today bringing the number of cases higher than it has ever been!!!” Of course, they are referring only to the running total number of cases recorded, and the running total, by definition, is always higher than it has ever been. Yet it tells you nothing about the alleged accelerating rate of new case creation day by day. This is not an opinion. It is a fact of faulty arithmetic.
tree68 243129 Would I be correct in assuming that you are a Trump supporter? You would be wrong. But I have absolutely no love for the Democrats. Which in many people's minds seems to make me a lover of Trump. It's not all black and white, as they say. There are shades of grey. Given the choice between Trump and another Republican, I'd likely vote for the other guy. For now, however, we're stuck with Trump as the lesser of the evils, no matter what the MSM wants you to believe. Soros, on the other hand, is pure evil, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on.
243129 Would I be correct in assuming that you are a Trump supporter?
Yes, there are indeed shades of grey. You'd do well to bear that in mind when you attempt to portray everyone who can't stand Trump as an unhinged far-left obsessive.
Euclid Paul of Covington Euclid Throughout this pandemic experience, there has been speculation surrounding the issue of asymptomatic infection. One aspect of this is the claim that people can contract the virus at one point, but do not develop any symptoms until sometime later, such as 1-3 weeks later. During that time of being asymptomatic, the subject has no way of knowing they are infected unless it is discovered by testing. Generally, the consensus is that the virus can be spread to others during the period of being asymptomatic in an infected person. It seems you don't want to accept this idea, but many years ago, I was told by my doctor that mono takes about two weeks after infection for the symptoms to show up, and during that time it is very contagious. I remember thinking at the time that that's a smart disease. I don't see why you think I don't accept that idea. I do indeed accept the idea that a person with the disease, but without symptoms can transmit the disease to others. That is exactly what I mean in my paragraph that you quoted above your comment. We have been told that repeatedly, and I have no reason to doubt it. I did not say that for the purpose of discrediting it. I said it to support the following argument challenging the second wave theory that is being foisted upon us: The reason I said what I said was that people with the disease, but without symptoms can spread the disease without knowing it. They may never get symptoms, but they continue spreading the disease to many others. The only way that could be prevented is if those asymptomatic spreaders were to be found by testing. Then they would be isolated and that would stop their spreading. But testing only began in early March and the virus arrived in December or November of last year. So that was 3-4 months with possible asymptomatic spreaders free to spread the disease without anybody knowing it was happening. There has been speculation that this caused a massive number of cases that never developed symptoms. Therefore some of the new cases we are finding today may be cases that were contracted last December and have never developed symptoms. They may never cause sickness or death. Yet we are presenting them as new cases discovered today and contracted very recently, if not today. That assumption is totally unfounded. Because we cannot say when cases found today actually originated, we have no basis to conclude that the number of cases found per day now is greater than the number of cases that would have found in a day back in December. Yet the news narrative is blindly making the assumption that new cases found today are developing at a faster rate than they were much earlier before massive testing started to ramp up. And then, based on that faulty premise, we are once again shutting down our economy. And for the most part, this faulty conclusion is not even taken far enough to engage the fault. Instead, it is being driven mostly by the hysterical claim of “More new cases found today bringing the number of cases higher than it has ever been!!!” Of course, they are referring only to the running total number of cases recorded, and the running total, by definition, is always higher than it has ever been. Yet it tells you nothing about the alleged accelerating rate of new case creation day by day. This is not an opinion. It is a fact of faulty arithmetic.
Many other countries are testing much more intensively on a per capita basis than we are, yet their numbers are going down across the board while ours skyrocket. How do you explain that away?
Psychot Many other countries are testing much more intensively on a per capita basis than we are, yet their numbers are going down across the board while ours skyrocket. How do you explain that away?
I don't know how to explain it. So far, I have not received any acknowledgement that I have successfully explained it here as it pertains to this country. But as I have explained here, I would not conclude that our numbers are skyrocketing. What does that phrase even mean? As I said above, these implications of skyrocketing are being advanced without any evidence that actual origins of virus infections are increasing over what they were a few months ago. The reasoning is childishly convoluted and illogical. It seems to be reaching for a conclusion that we must shut down the country despite inadequate evidence.
Maybe other countries are doing another version of the same thing. Maybe they are reaching for a conclusion that they must reopen their countries.
A couple pages back, I posted some other ideas of what might be wrong with our testing in terms of a selection bias. We are not even told how people are selected, or why they volunteer. We are not told whether they have symptoms. These and other pertinent factors are never reported in this one track news narrative.
We are citing rising totals of new cases as we ramp up testing. So what are the new totals counting? We have no way of knowing that these newly found cases actually originated at or shortly before the test, which would be relevant information. So we are finding cases that we did not know about, but we have no idea when those cases originated. And that is the crucial part if you are looking for the rate per day of newly originated cases of infection.
Basically, we could have had a massive number of new cases per day last February that we never knew about, and we could be finding them by testing today.
And this would give a false impression of a spike or a so-called second wave.
PsychotYes, there are indeed shades of grey. You'd do well to bear that in mind when you attempt to portray everyone who can't stand Trump as an unhinged far-left obsessive.
I can't stand Hillary Clinton - does that make me an unhinged far-right obsessive - or just someone who can't stand her?
If you bothered to read that RUTERS piece they claimed he was to young to be in the German Youth. Hello the German YOUTH where for kids 13-17 to PREPARE them for service in the German army. In 1944 he was 14 and the perfect age to be in the freaking thing. Also Soro's is considered Persona NON GRATA in his own home nation of Hungry. That means he has been EXPELLED by his own nation. He literally can never go back to Hungry ever again even when he is DEAD as far as they are concered he is not even a person.
If you looked at Craigslist when the Riots were going on at full tilt there were all kinds of ads listed for Jobs for Protesters being paid for by Open Socitety Foundation aka the Soros Foundation. Also just how in the heck can all these people arrested keep affording BAIL when most of them do not have JOBS. Someone is paying their legal bills during these protests.
charlie hebdo He and Euclid and others are getting desperate because their idiot is facing a rout and (hopefully) prison.
I fixed it for you.
tree68 But I have absolutely no love for the Democrats. Which in many people's minds seems to make me a lover of Trump. It's not all black and white, as they say. There are shades of grey. Given the choice between Trump and another Republican, I'd likely vote for the other guy. For now, however, we're stuck with Trump as the lesser of the evils, no matter what the MSM wants you to believe. Soros, on the other hand, is pure evil, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on.
I've never heard President Trump called the lesser of the evils before. Wow. I think he'd probably be offended, on the level that he wants to be thought of as the greatest of anything.
The "Soros is pure evil" judgement just is pure conspiracy stuff, don't know what to tell you. Rich guys pouring money into politics aren't great in general (i.e. the Koch brothers) but unfortunately we have some wacky court decision that says political money somehow directly equals free speech.
And Larry, the "MSM" does not want you to believe anything, because they do not have these secret coordinated planning meetings. Because they DO NOT EXIST as a thing, even though guys like Rush Limbaugh use the term again and again.
(You said you don't listen to talk radio...so..um..where did you get the idea to call the Media the "MSM"? Did this originate with you?)
Try to keep straight the difference between news reporting and "analysts and commentary." I for one would like all the networks to just open a trap door under all analysis and commentary (well, maybe we could leave it for the sunday talk shows, but it's annoying even there.) I'd also open that trap door for the radio people like Limbaugh.
I wish TV News was more like BBC World News or CNN International or France 24 or DW, or...
But the news reporters (reporters!) at the NYT and the Washington Post and the Philadelphia Daily News and the Columbus Dispatch and the LA Times and the Buffalo News and AP and Reuters and NBC News and CBS News are working hard to REPORT.
It's a tough job that gets lots of unfair criticism. They tell what happened. We need to know what happened, especially with an administration that has discovered they can make stuff up in this climate and get away from it.
tree68You would be wrong. But I have absolutely no love for the Democrats.
So you are not a Trump supporter but you vote the party line.
tree68Given the choice between Trump and another Republican, I'd likely vote for the other guy.
Who in your opinion might that other guy be?
tree68For now, however, we're stuck with Trump as the lesser of the evils, no matter what the MSM wants you to believe
Ah the 'base mentality'.
Shadow the Cats owner If you bothered to read that RUTERS piece they claimed he was to young to be in the German Youth. Hello the German YOUTH where for kids 13-17 to PREPARE them for service in the German army. In 1944 he was 14 and the perfect age to be in the freaking thing. Also Soro's is considered Persona NON GRATA in his own home nation of Hungry. That means he has been EXPELLED by his own nation. He literally can never go back to Hungry ever again even when he is DEAD as far as they are concered he is not even a person. If you looked at Craigslist when the Riots were going on at full tilt there were all kinds of ads listed for Jobs for Protesters being paid for by Open Socitety Foundation aka the Soros Foundation. Also just how in the heck can all these people arrested keep affording BAIL when most of them do not have JOBS. Someone is paying their legal bills during these protests.
So says the quintessential Trump supporter.
Lol, you're wading into international affairs about which you clearly know absolutely nothing. The Hungarian government under Viktor Orban and his cronies is systematically undermining the very foundations of democracy in that country by buying up all the media outlets and turning them into government mouthpieces; turning the judiciary branch into a subsidiary of the executive branch; and changing the electoral rules so that opposition parties have little chance of winning a nationwide election. Soros's organizations have been fighting these trends tooth and nail, and it's for that reason that the current Hungarian government hates Soros. I would think anyone who supports democracy would be on board with those efforts.
Having lived in Hungary from 2014 to 2019, I can tell you that Orban has relentlessly used Soros as a political bogeyman, painting him as a Jewish ogre who's plotting to destroy Hungary by letting in a bunch of Arab migrants (sound familiar?). The antisemitic messaging against Soros has ranged from dog-whistling to overt; an example of the latter was an Orban campaign poster that depicted a scowling Soros manipulating left-wing Hungarian politicians like puppets on a string, invoking an old antisemitic trope about Jewish puppetmasters surreptitiously controlling the world.
Educate yourself before you go shooting your mouth off.
Thanks for your insights into Hungary, Psychot. Some of it does sound similar to what I read about the government in Poland...hope this antidemocratic trend is something that will go the other way with enough people standing up for democracy and the rule of law.
243129 So you are not a Trump supporter but you vote the party line.
Nope - best candidate. Unfortunately, the pickings have been a little slim lately. People really do think for themselves sometimes, you know.
243129Who in your opinion might that other guy be?
Dunno. Haven't been a lot of Republicans making noises in that direction lately.
I think the Democrats could field a better candidate, but I suspect they've discouraged those who have expressed an interest out of fear they wouldn't toe the party line.
243129Ah the 'base mentality'.
Well, if you want to believe the MSM, that's your problem.
Shadow the Cats owner If you bothered to read that RUTERS piece they claimed he was to young to be in the German Youth. Hello the German YOUTH where for kids 13-17 to PREPARE them for service in the German army. In 1944 he was 14 and the perfect age to be in the freaking thing. Also Soro's is considered Persona NON GRATA in his own home nation of Hungry. That means he has been EXPELLED by his own nation. He literally can never go back to Hungry ever again even when he is DEAD as far as they are concered he is not even a person.
The photo in question shows a young man in a SS uniform, not Hitler Youth garb.
I don't believe that Soros was ever a member of any Nazi organization, but suppose that the Hitler Youth recruiters came to your house when you were a teenager. What would be the consequences of refusing to join, both for you and your family?
Even worse, what would have happened if you admitted to being Jewish?
Psychot is spot on about the current Hungarian government.
Shadow the Cats owner If you looked at Craigslist when the Riots were going on at full tilt there were all kinds of ads listed for Jobs for Protesters being paid for by Open Socitety Foundation aka the Soros Foundation. Also just how in the heck can all these people arrested keep affording BAIL when most of them do not have JOBS. Someone is paying their legal bills during these protests.
Yes, because Craiglist is a secure platform that only verified identities post ads on.
And it's not like a citizen has a right to a lawyer even if they cannot afford one.
And there is absolutely no one out there who lends money to folks who want to make bail, often at exhorbitant rates (but that's another story).
At least you didn't spell it "roiters".........
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