tree68it's that they would question the veracity, the justification, and/or the practices surrounding the topic.
Sometimes having a mastery of your field includes a requirement that you appreciate the predicament of those not so blessed.
If one is comfortable with their station, a little challenge from the genuinely ignorant now and then shouldn't threaten the franchise.
Convicted One tree68 And most folks will recognize and respect the information provided by those who deal with the topic on a regular basis One thing may deserve mention at this point. Often we make our own bed. There are a handful of people here who seem find it especially challenging to disagree with anyone without lacing their "fact stream" with personal insults, demeaning epithets, and self-serving vitriol. And, if someone happens to decide that they just have to lace their "expertise" with condescension and abuse, I hope they will forgive me if I fail to respect their whiskers. There are a few regulars here especially fond of painting with a fairly broad brush. Listening to them rant about what idiots college graduates who happen to disagree with them are, it can be vexing to take all of their expertise seriously. Signed: A college graduate
tree68 And most folks will recognize and respect the information provided by those who deal with the topic on a regular basis
One thing may deserve mention at this point. Often we make our own bed.
There are a handful of people here who seem find it especially challenging to disagree with anyone without lacing their "fact stream" with personal insults, demeaning epithets, and self-serving vitriol.
And, if someone happens to decide that they just have to lace their "expertise" with condescension and abuse, I hope they will forgive me if I fail to respect their whiskers. There are a few regulars here especially fond of painting with a fairly broad brush. Listening to them rant about what idiots college graduates who happen to disagree with them are, it can be vexing to take all of their expertise seriously.
Signed: A college graduate
I would concur. There is no room in "the marketplace of ideas" or rational discussions for invectives, euphemistic vulgarities or demeaning phrases. But it happens often on here, along with a contempt for academic achievements, as though that were self-evident.
Having a healthy tolerance for disagreement, even when you think the "other" is in error, is what most real experts try to practice. Toleration of ad hominem attacks is quite another matter.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
gardendance. I do agree that the article to which it refers is stupid,
Well, at least my thread specifically addressed issues involving RAILROADING, which is a lot more than I can say about the "Mass shooting near railroad tracks" thread, which seemed to gather quite a bit of attention despite questionable context issues.
Convicted OneSometimes having a mastery of your field includes a requirement that you appreciate the predicament of those not so blessed. If one is comfortable with their station, a little challenge from the genuinely ignorant now and then shouldn't threaten the franchise
Perhaps this statement should be added to the Trains Forum "Terms of Use".
Convicted OneIf one is comfortable with their station, a little challenge from the genuinely ignorant now and then shouldn't threaten the franchise.
Absolutely. It's not the genuinely ignorant that are the problem. In fact, they provide an opportunity for those who do know to instruct those who don't. Everyone learns in the process.
The problem is those who can't seem to accept an answer (no matter what it is) without challenging it. They're like the little kid who keeps asking, "Why?" And then claims to be the victim...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I have no idea how frequently a discussion group participant is "driven away" from the group because of postings by another participant. However I've never ceased participating in a group because of another participant. What causes a cessation of my participation is a significant decrease in discussions that provide me with information that I consider useful. My railroad-related interests are extremely narrow; and I certainly don't expect most topics to provide me with useful information. However I pay attention to trends in topics that given groups discuss; and the more those topics shift away from my areas of interest the less likely I am to participate. It occurred to me that if I initiated more discussions, there might be more discussions that interested me. So in an effort to determine the extent to which I was causing my own problem, I looked at participation statistics for seven of the railroad-related discussion groups in which I had significantly reduced, or even terminated, my participation in recent years. I compared the number of postings during November 2015 with the number of postings during November 2008. None of the groups had experienced an increase in postings; and all of the decreases exceeded 50%. The decreases were as follows: 98%, 96%, 93%, 92%, 77%, 74%, and 59%. The lowest decrease was in a Baltimore & Ohio Railroad discussion group which is characterized by relatively strict moderation. Postings that aren't related directly to B&O are prohibited; and the same is true for arguments among participants. We can certainly disagree with one another; however that can't escalate into personal criticisms. The (unscientific) conclusion which I draw from all this is that discussion group participants are willing to accept a certain amount of intra-group discourtesy if useful information continues to be exchanged. However if there's a prolonged decrease in informational discussions, it won't matter how well the participants get along with one another. I do presume that the general decrease in participation between 2008 and 2015 that I mentioned was partially due to increased use of social media; however I don't know the extent of that relationship.
tree68 Convicted One If one is comfortable with their station, a little challenge from the genuinely ignorant now and then shouldn't threaten the franchise. Absolutely. It's not the genuinely ignorant that are the problem. In fact, they provide an opportunity for those who do know to instruct those who don't. Everyone learns in the process. The problem is those who can't seem to accept an answer (no matter what it is) without challenging it. They're like the little kid who keeps asking, "Why?" And then claims to be the victim...
Convicted One If one is comfortable with their station, a little challenge from the genuinely ignorant now and then shouldn't threaten the franchise.
Larry: I do not think that is what Convicted One was saying there. People who are secure in their knowledge, career, etc. have no problem with challenges, even from outsiders. It is not only a teaching opportunity it may well open up new territory or outlooks which the expert had not previously considered or to revisit previously settled issues.
As to dealing with those "yes, but" types who continue unproductively on and on, anyone who teaches can tell you we simply cut them off at some point (not hastily because we want students to question and challenge) and move on.
tree68 A technical discussion will only last as long as there are questions or comments on the topic at hand. And most folks will recognize and respect the information provided by those who deal with the topic on a regular basis. And if you tell me that the air pressure in the brake line is what holds the brake shoes off the wheels, I'm going to correct you.
I stand by my contention that Schlimm's lying both when he says chessiecat123 posts in almost every current thread, and when he says chessiecat123's posts were the last ones in those threads. Does anyone care to comment on if I was out of line calling Schlimm a liar?
Posted by schlimm on Friday, December 11, 2015 10:51 PM
schlimm Most of us indicated we could ignore the subject of this thread. However, he has taken to posting on almost every current thread making that increasingly difficult. How much longer does this have to go on? He's destroying whatever enjoyment was left of these forums on his way to oblivion.
gardendance I assume you mean ChessieCat123. I don't read every thread, but of the threads I do read, for example this one he's posted 5 times, and in its evil twin the indecent thread he hasn't posted at all. I think you're exaggerating when you say "he has taken to posting on almost every current thread" Please give some examples.
gardendance See what happens when you try to post when you're sleepy? I should have just clicked his profile. Other than the aforementioned innoffensive "Who names control points" post, http://cs.trains.com/members/chessiecat123/default.aspx says the most recent time he posted IN SOMEONE ELSE'S THREAD was 6 days ago.
schlimm Your posts are much akin to his.
gardendance ... Seriously though, where are ANY examples to support your contention that ChessieCat123 "has taken to posting on almost every current thread"?
schlimm gardendance Schlimm, you have still not answered my question about how you got your opinion that chessiecat123 is putting his comments into other peoples' threads. Although I try to be funny once in a while, I also have some serious questions as well, and this is one of them. The statistics that I looked at would support a contention that he makes lots of his own threads, not that he hijacks other peoples' threads. You felt strongly enough that he does hijack other peoples' threads to post it, so what makes you feel this way? Keep waiting, then.
schlimm gardendance There's no need for me to wait anymore. I conclude that your post accusing chessiecat123 of hijacking other peoples' threads was a lie, and I'm willing to bet that any reasonable person would conclude the same way. Your post is a total distortion fabrication of my comment. And what I said was only in the same sense of what several others also were saying [about Ray]. Here was my post: Most of us indicated we could ignore the subject of this thread. However, he has taken to posting on almost every current thread making that increasingly difficult. How much longer does this have to go on? He's destroying whatever enjoyment was left of these forums on his way to oblivion. Where is the word "hijacking" above? "Almost every" is hardly a precise count. When I posted this, however, many threads on the various forums showed the last comment was his, and often the comment was a typical troll comment. Some comments he makes are good contributions, but a significant number are straight out of the troller's manual. You befriended Ray, defended his trolling and even took him for a ride on a boat - all your privilege and free choice. Don't expect everyone to share your opinion.
schlimm ...People who are secure in their knowledge, career, etc. have no problem with challenges, even from outsiders. It is not only a teaching opportunity it may well open up new territory or outlooks which the expert had not previously considered or to revisit previously settled issues. As to dealing with those "yes, but" types who continue unproductively on and on, anyone who teaches can tell you we simply cut them off at some point (not hastily because we want students to question and challenge) and move on.
Patrick Boylan
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