What do think about M.W. Hemphill's column in Dec. TRAINS RE:the plight of T&E service?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

LC

I know that Gunpow wasn't about sleep deprivation or fatigue issues. It was about alcohol and drug use among on duty train crews. I was using it as an example of what it is, a defining moment in American railroad operation and regulation. Engineer certification after being over hundred years a completely inhouse affair became a federal government matter almost overnight. Due to the public outrage and outcry.

I mentioned the union Carbide Haz-Mat Incident in Bhopol, India as possible type of incident that can bring again to the RR industry the same kind of outrage and outcry from the public that Ricky Gates brought on. To think that this possibilty is in some realm of fantasy is to delude oneself. Like the possiblity of suicide terrorist using fully fuel jetliners as cruise missiles to slam into American skycrapers.

Talk about Socialism vs.Capitalism all you want. Safety is not behold to economic system it is common sense. If the RR don't self regulate now they open up themselves to the imposition of regulation maybe over regulation from an angry public balance sheets be damned. Just like the hubris of RR management of the 19th Century brought about the the draconian ICC.

Rgemed,
I know that scheduling is not a panacea but a step in right direction. Again look at the Aviation industry! Yes I know the passenger is loosing ton and tons of money per day but the freight side is quite robust. Ask UPS and FedEx.

Rgemed,
Why do some railroaders think that they are the only profession that does not work 9 to 5. I am a "Narco Ranger" for the NYPD and today I will have worked over 24 hours straight w/o sleep doing arrest processing. So I know about "lifestyle"! But that no excuse for working safely and going home to your families in one piece.

Colin-

You need to get beyond a glib understanding of how things work in the RR business if you want to truly understand what is going on.

First, although locomotive engineers are now certified pursuant to FRA regulations (49 CFR 240 et seq.) it is the railroads that actually submit THEIR certification plans to FRA and it is the RRs, not ther FRA or other government agencies that actually certify their engineers. An engineer's card is NOT like a driver's license. It is valid on one railroad only, absent agreements with other RRs. So, other than having to comply with the letter of the certification regulation and comply with the drug and alcohol testing regs things haven't actually changed that much.

Second, there have already been some pretty major chemical spills in the railroad businerss in the last few years such as the CSX spills in New Orleans and the explosion of a CN gasoline train near Montreal. Or a little further back the derailment on the then SP that resulted in the dumping of a whole tank car of herbicide into the beautiful pristine American River in Northern California, an inlet for the City of Sacramento's public water supply. These incidents, barely made national news, much less turned into a serious public outcry. In a word, you are deluding yourself if you think that this sort of incident will create much real public outcry or change outside of its happening in a major city. Bhopal (correct spelling) is a completely different scenario. There, much of the outcry was about how multinational corporations were taking advantage of the poorer countries with more lax safety regulation to produce profits going to their pockets in the first world. This is hardly the type of outcry one would expect from a sleep deprivation incident.

One last example, in Syracuse, New York over the last three years or so there have been two major incidents involving Amtrak Empire Corridor trains. In the first incident the Amtrak train rear ended a CSX freight near Dewitt Yard. Although there were numerous injuries there were no fatalities. The cause of the incident was found to be the Amtrak Engineer having a diabetic "incident". In a second incident less than two years later, an Amtrak Engineer actually fell asleep and ran through at least two signals and an interlocking switch. Only quick action by a CSX freight crew approaching from the opposite direction on the same track avoided a head on collision by only 400 feet. Despite this, there was only a local public outcry and calls for investigation of rail safety from local elected officials including Congressman Walsh. After a few months, everything died down again...

It is easy to say from the comfort of a government job that economics don't matter. That is one of the major problems with NY. Government keeps growing and keeps on finding ways to fund ever larger public payrolls as business fless the ever higher taxes needed to support it. The only thing saving NYS from collapse is Wall Street and the tax revenues (and fines) it generates. Upstate has lost much of its industry and can't hope to regain it under the existing regime. Look for more railroad abandonments in NY as a result. You can't legislate safety. It has to be built from within.

LC

[Anonymous]

LC

I know that Gunpow wasn't about sleep deprivation or fatigue issues. It was about alcohol and drug use among on duty train crews. I was using it as an example of what it is, a defining moment in American railroad operation and regulation. Engineer certification after being over hundred years a completely inhouse affair became a federal government matter almost overnight. Due to the public outrage and outcry.

I mentioned the union Carbide Haz-Mat Incident in Bhopol, India as possible type of incident that can bring again to the RR industry the same kind of outrage and outcry from the public that Ricky Gates brought on. To think that this possibilty is in some realm of fantasy is to delude oneself. Like the possiblity of suicide terrorist using fully fuel jetliners as cruise missiles to slam into American skycrapers.

Talk about Socialism vs.Capitalism all you want. Safety is not behold to economic system it is common sense. If the RR don't self regulate now they open up themselves to the imposition of regulation maybe over regulation from an angry public balance sheets be damned. Just like the hubris of RR management of the 19th Century brought about the the draconian ICC.

Rgemed,
I know that scheduling is not a panacea but a step in right direction. Again look at the Aviation industry! Yes I know the passenger is loosing ton and tons of money per day but the freight side is quite robust. Ask UPS and FedEx.

Rgemed,
Why do some railroaders think that they are the only profession that does not work 9 to 5. I am a "Narco Ranger" for the NYPD and today I will have worked over 24 hours straight w/o sleep doing arrest processing. So I know about "lifestyle"! But that no excuse for working safely and going home to your families in one piece.

[Anonymous]

Just for some of the non railroaders talking about scheduling. I work for a small railroad that has scheduled shifts. Yes, it is very nice to be home everynight. But guess what, its still a railroad, and you still end up working all the time. I have been home every night this week but have put in 70 hours in the last six days and I don't expect to get a day off until late next week.

Yes, scheduling would be great but it is not the all encompassing solution that you want it to be. The bottom line is that no railroad is a 9 to 5 railroad, no matter how hard they try to be. Yes it can be tiring at times. But this is what we are trained for, and this is what the job is about. You can either handle it or you can't. Railraoding is a lifestyle not a career.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

QUOTE: Originally posted by u6729csx

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe


While the system in the Soviet Union may have imploded of it's own ineffeciencies they had a few things that were far advanced to what capitalist managers accept as good management techniques. Note that the WC was mostly a 7 and 3 railroad for train crews but CN has been working hard to change that to a 6 and 1 operation. Let's see, crews that were getting 9 days a month off duty will now be getting 4 days off. Some of those days may be eatten up by trips from the previous day that work into the day off. This is progress?

You can afford to do things such as the Soviets did, when you get to spend from the public money trough and don't have to answer to stockholders that have invested in your venture. The building of the Trans-Sieberian Railway bankrupt the Csars and Russia that built it, and such techniques would also bankrupt the 'for profit' railroad model.

When does defending a 44 hour work week evidence of a vast Communist plot and a clear sign of "Creeping Socialism" . Seems such name calling is designed to schelch debate and not deal with the problem. Human are not Diesel-Electric locomotives where you just turn them on the ready track (in warm weather ) and be ready to go in a matter of minutes.

It seems to me that the RR's were more scheduled in the steam era than now even for freights , when it took hours to get road power ready and the freights had to be scheduled to stay out the way of the passenger traffic. That is how O. Winston Link got those fantastic photograghs because even the coal drag hauling N&W scheduled their freights and Mr. had a copy of the timetable.

Human beings are not machines unfortunately capitalist forces do not recognize and/or ignore this but again unfortunately government forces should. The aviation industry has long recognized tis but the railroad industry seems determined not to.

Do we need another "collision at Gunpow" or a Bopol, India type incident involving a haz-mat for the RR industry to change??

In the steam era we had about 2 Million people employed by Class 1 railroads versus around 180,000 people today. We could never afford to pay a living wage to that many people today. Sorry Colin, you can't force socialism on a capitalist model. It doesn't work. "Bhopal" was an incident at a Union Carbide Chemical Plant in India and had nothing whatever to do with railroads. The collision at Gunpow interlocking had nothing to do with adequacy of personel and its relation to proper rest issues is questionable at best. There are many better examples of sleep deprivation incidents and calamities. Gunpow had more to do with a culture in the railroad industry that permitted use of alcohol and drugs than it did with rest issues.

Employees are tools of the trade in many industries and are among the most expensive tools going. Smart businesses including railroads realize that and take care of their tools properly....

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by u6729csx

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe


While the system in the Soviet Union may have imploded of it's own ineffeciencies they had a few things that were far advanced to what capitalist managers accept as good management techniques. Note that the WC was mostly a 7 and 3 railroad for train crews but CN has been working hard to change that to a 6 and 1 operation. Let's see, crews that were getting 9 days a month off duty will now be getting 4 days off. Some of those days may be eatten up by trips from the previous day that work into the day off. This is progress?

You can afford to do things such as the Soviets did, when you get to spend from the public money trough and don't have to answer to stockholders that have invested in your venture. The building of the Trans-Sieberian Railway bankrupt the Csars and Russia that built it, and such techniques would also bankrupt the 'for profit' railroad model.

When does defending a 44 hour work week evidence of a vast Communist plot and a clear sign of "Creeping Socialism" . Seems such name calling is designed to schelch debate and not deal with the problem. Human are not Diesel-Electric locomotives where you just turn them on the ready track (in warm weather ) and be ready to go in a matter of minutes.

It seems to me that the RR's were more scheduled in the steam era than now even for freights , when it took hours to get road power ready and the freights had to be scheduled to stay out the way of the passenger traffic. That is how O. Winston Link got those fantastic photograghs because even the coal drag hauling N&W scheduled their freights and Mr. had a copy of the timetable.

Human beings are not machines unfortunately capitalist forces do not recognize and/or ignore this but again unfortunately government forces should. The aviation industry has long recognized tis but the railroad industry seems determined not to.

Do we need another "collision at Gunpow" or a Bopol, India type incident involving a haz-mat for the RR industry to change??

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by powerlifter

I've been itching to do some T&E work for a few years after I graduate from college. However, the issue of off time has me concerned. Are there any Class I railroads/subdivisions which would allow me to get around 7 hours of sleep and an hour or so to weightlift (not counting commute time)? I have my eye on NS or BNSF, but have no idea of the working conditions. Thanks.

Carl

FOFLMAO...

Carl, I don't want to sound mean spirited, but what you are suggesting is a VERY regular schedule compared to what you can expect on the RR, any RR. Remember, when you are starting out you will go through a few months training and after that will head for the extra board. That literally means being on call ALL the time. The schedule by arbfe above is pretty close to reality, but let me add a couple of twists from my own perspective. I live 90 minutes from my terminal at speed limit speeds (65). Back under Conrail our agreement was 2 hour call. The NS (Nickel Plate) is 90 minute call. As you can imagine, for me and many others that is a difficult way to work. I would move closer, but my wife has a good job here and the kids are in a good school district and established here.

A typical run starts when I get home from the last trip. This assumes I am either on the extra board or holding a pool job. I get my clothes into the laundry que and grab some clean ones and repack my grip. I check my lantern and flashlight batteries, put my portable (radio) battery into the charger and make sandwiches and pull together most of a lunch for the next trip and put it in the fridge. Go through mail and e-mail, pay whatever bills that are my responsibility. Luckily, my wife handles most of the paperwork and food shopping. I then grab a shower and head for bed. Before I tuck in I check the stand line to see where I show, if I do and/or call the caller to check on when I can expect to be called again. This is usually a minimum of 2 hours after I walk in the door. So we are already at 3 1/2 hours since I marked off the last trip. Most times I get about 5 to 6 hours sleep and get right up. Remember, I can be and have been called out again after eight hours (unless I have worked 12 hours or more, then I get 10 hours rest time) so from the time I get home I can expect to be called in a minimum of five hours. I immediately shower and check with the caller, if he or she didn't wake me up. Most of the time I'm usually second or even first out by then. If there is time I handle other chores and errands and always fuel my car and check the oil. If there is time and they are home from school or activities I spend it with my kids reading or in the back yard.

So, from my perspective your hope of 7 hours sleep on a minimum call I would get at best 3 hours. Forget about the weightlifting in those situations. There is no schedule in railroading only a kind of rythym that you develop with time and understanding how to play the system to make your life as tolerable as possible.

LC

[arbfbe]

Powerlifter;

Reality is once in a while you might get the life style you are acking for. That will likely be irregular and short lived. Eight hours rest breaks down this way. Tie up and drive 30 minutes or more to your home. Eat, clean up, read mail, unwind and such, maybe another 30 minutes. This may be any time during the day or night, in fact it is more likely to be 0400 than 1600. The railroad will call you between 1'15" and 2'00" if they are busy. You need to get a meal, pack a lunch and drive to work. So at best you will have gotten 5'45" sleep, sort of short of the 7 hours you like to get. On top of this you have all the normal lifetime things like paying bills, shopping for staples, housework, friends, family, hobbiies, auto repairs and service and on and on. Sometimes you will get home and will only get an hour or two nap before you are called back to work. Maybe you will have enough seniority to bid a yard job. It will be the midnight shift for years if you are lucky, At least there you might get 16 hrs between shifts unless they are short of men when they will be calling you every 8 to work the OT and to work your days off as well. Talk to the rails in the areas you might like to work to find out how the situation is where they are. There will be lots of opportunities in the next 3-7 years while the 60/30 retirement plan kicks in.

[Anonymous]

I've been itching to do some T&E work for a few years after I graduate from college. However, the issue of off time has me concerned. Are there any Class I railroads/subdivisions which would allow me to get around 7 hours of sleep and an hour or so to weightlift (not counting commute time)? I have my eye on NS or BNSF, but have no idea of the working conditions. Thanks.

Carl

[ValleyX]

Z, I understand very well exactly what you're saying, my circumstances are not quite the same but enough that I can relate. One big difference is that in all this time, never had a period of being furloughed, even in the hard grim days of the early eighties, so now I'm nearing the end of the journey, relatively speaking, and have made the best of it.

Dave, what worries me is the voting public, who some of still wonder if we've got any steam, and the rest think we don't run trains because they don't run passengers, would get to make the decisions about how the industry would be governed, or some congressman, nearly the same thing.

[daveklepper]

Mark, you are usually right about these matters. But if the voting public really gets concerned, there will be the regulations. I guess what I am suggesting is that we figure out how to make them as painless to the industry as possible.

[zardoz]

ValleyX - Deep inside I knew I wanted out, but how does one give up a $70K/year job, when it is, except for some teenage minimum-wage jobs, the only job I ever had. I hired out just after high school when I was 18, was through the six-month Engineer school and qualified before I was 20. I didn't know any other jobs, and was admittedly afraid of where I would land. In '81, business was slow enough that I got laid off for about six months. Not knowing if this was permanent, I began looking for employment. What I found was ten years as an engineer did not count for much towards any other occupation. When I was going throught the investigation procedure, I actually thought they would not fire me, as they were so busy (the reason I needed the time off). They called my bluff, and my full house did not compare to their four-of-a-kind.

[jeaton]

I could be wrong, but I think the Illinois Central had dead man's pedals on the E units in passenger service. In my one ride on the point, the engineer left his seat two or three times to use the facilities. I was surprised at first but then noticed where had stowed his grip. Of course, in those days there was a fireman in the left seat.

The health issues discussed in this topic are certainly worthy of serious consideration, not only as discussion among us forum members, but also out there in the real world. I'd like to add that the problem is not unique to the railroad industry. I have several aquaintances who have worked on automobile assembly lines for Chrysler-Belvidere and GM-Janesville who took there pensions as soon as eligible. Even though this is steady shift work, most said that the work over years took a toll on the body. While there are often things to do that are more fun, good personal health care, rest, excercise, diet, no tobacco, no or limited alcohol will mitigate the effects of job stress. I will still agree entirely with everybody that work conditions are the biggest part of the problem. I can't speak for railroad management, but it seems to me that many other companies are taking a more enlightened view on the need to consider work conditions when looking at employee health issues. I think it is clear that there is no way that freight railroads could solve the work condition issue by establishing scheduled operations. On the other hand, there have been some reasonable suggestions for work condition changes, such as allowing napping when stopped and limiting the number of work turns in a given period so that there is some interval of off days. Will that add to payroll cost? Good question. Health insurance expense, sick days, employee recruitment and training are all part of the deal and those costs are part of the motivation for the "enlighted" companies.

By the way I and some of the others posting here worked for railroads when the hours of service law allowed 16 hours on still with only 8 hours mandatory rest. Of course that changed. I believe truckers not only have the on duty/off duty requirements for day to day work, but also have limits on total hours for a work week. There is always the possibility that the "hours per week" feature may be added to railraod hours of service limits at some time in the future.

As for the compromises necessary when choosing between the job and the family, it is each to his own. I had to make those decisions more than once, and it is not easy, but I don't regret those times when I have sacrificed income for a better quality of personal or family life.

And so it goes...

Jay

[ValleyX]

Alerters, or crew call devices, started appearing on the N&W in 1972, possibly 1971, after a couple of bad accidents in the coalfields. If I'm not mistaken, PRR may have had some sort of a crew call device on some of their last power purchased, requiring the engineer to tap a panel on the control stand, but this is something I've been told, not something I know.

[ValleyX]

Deadman pedals, which I never had to deal with on a regular basis, were of limited value and when we merged with a railroad that had them and started having to deal with them, they were found by one and all to be a major pain and mostly useless and treated as reported in previous posts.

However, I think alerters are a great thing, there used to be a good way to circumvent them and most knew how to do it but it became a "practice of the past" with stronger FRA regulations. That, plus the fact that when first installed, they were frequently faulty and we learned and were told how to do it out of necessity but this is going back twenty-\ to twenty-five years.

More than one engineer has been thankful that he had an alerter and there is no way to have statistics on what accidents have been prevented because of a alerter.

As for the railroad lifestyle, Z, I admire that you were able to walk away from it but don't understand why you allowed them to fire you, because if you felt that strongly about it, you should have resigned, you surely knew if you really wanted out or not.

All the posts from the outsiders are typical of posts that outsiders would write, it seems to me. They've mostly not lived the lifestyle and they know what they've read in articles and on these and other forums and make the assumption that our lives are just awful, as a result, but it isn't necessarily so. I've lived this life for many years and its very true that there are things I've missed but there are plenty of things that I was able to do, too, and there were plenty of things I refused to miss and planned accordingly.

Same thing with the health issues. Everyone writes that you're shortening your life, essentially, by working on the road in freight service and there's evidence to back that up, I'm aware of that. The missed sleep, the irregular meals, lack of proper exercise, not good, but everyday I read the obituary column in our newspaper and I see plenty of misfortunate people who never worked for a railroad who have died at a much too young age. Life is a risk, regardless.

I am what I am, I am what I wanted to be, and I've been able to do that. Sure, I sometimes regret some of the choices I have made but is there anyone in this forum who can say otherwise?

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Old Timer

MWH remarked about the dead man's pedals and the Alertors. Both were royal pains in the fundament.

But you could jimmy a dead man pedal, with a brake shoe, or by wedging a brake shoe key in above the pedal, or by using a flag stick to hold it down.

Alertors were a little harder . . .

But I wonder if someone has done a study about fatigue-caused situations that were prevented by those devices, against those that happened in spite of them being in service and activated. Of course, one can never find out about the former . . .

Old Timer

The CNW suburban units had deadman pedals. The only thing they were good for was a good place to store the wrench (held the pedal down real nicely). And at least we always knew where the wrench was.

I had mixed feelings about the alerters. They were great if the engineer had a health issue (pass out, heart attack, stroke), or if he got hit by a rock or shot. But for "alertness" I felt they were a mixed blessing. The alerter would stop the train if the engineer fell asleep. But what I noticed was that when I had an alerter, and I was REAL tired, and I knew there were no crossings for a few miles, and I could see green signals, I would use the alerter sort of like a snooze button on your alarm clock. I knew I could nod off for 20-30 seconds, and the alerter would wake me. I realize of course that this was dangerous, but not as dangerous as actually nodding off for a longer period with no alerter to wake me. For me, there are few worse feelings you can get as an engineer than waking up at 40 mph, not knowing how long you have nodded off, not sure how many crossings you went over without whistling and not knowing if you hit anything.

And not to anger any conductors who might read this, but most of the time they were already asleep as soon as we left the yard. However, there were some 'fun' ways to help the conductor stay awake. One of my favorites was to wait until we were on a safe stretch of track; I would hold the independet brake handle in the "bail off" position for about a minute so it could get a good supply of air. Then I would pick up the wrench or some other object that was suitably loud when dropped. Then I would just barely open the back door. When the time was right, I would, all at the same time, toss the wrench into the air, release the independent, and run out the back door yelling something like "we're gonna hit", or "S**T". Usually this was sufficient to ensure the wakefullness of the conductor, at least until his adrenaline wore off.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe


While the system in the Soviet Union may have imploded of it's own ineffeciencies they had a few things that were far advanced to what capitalist managers accept as good management techniques. Note that the WC was mostly a 7 and 3 railroad for train crews but CN has been working hard to change that to a 6 and 1 operation. Let's see, crews that were getting 9 days a month off duty will now be getting 4 days off. Some of those days may be eatten up by trips from the previous day that work into the day off. This is progress?

You can afford to do things such as the Soviets did, when you get to spend from the public money trough and don't have to answer to stockholders that have invested in your venture. The building of the Trans-Sieberian Railway bankrupt the Csars and Russia that built it, and such techniques would also bankrupt the 'for profit' railroad model.

[Anonymous]

MWH remarked about the dead man's pedals and the Alertors. Both were royal pains in the fundament.

But you could jimmy a dead man pedal, with a brake shoe, or by wedging a brake shoe key in above the pedal, or by using a flag stick to hold it down.

Alertors were a little harder . . .

But I wonder if someone has done a study about fatigue-caused situations that were prevented by those devices, against those that happened in spite of them being in service and activated. Of course, one can never find out about the former . . .

Old Timer

[arbfbe]

But on the Soviet Railways the engineers worked 44 hours per week just like everyone else in the economy. They also got a call sheet once a month with the entire next month's schedule for him at that time. He could ask for the days he wanted off in the next month in advance so it could be scheduled into the next month's call sheet.

Upon reporting for duty he had his blood pressure taken and if it was found to be elevated he was allowed to go home since their managers took that as a sign of fatigue.

While the system in the Soviet Union may have imploded of it's own ineffeciencies they had a few things that were far advanced to what capitalist managers accept as good management techniques. Note that the WC was mostly a 7 and 3 railroad for train crews but CN has been working hard to change that to a 6 and 1 operation. Let's see, crews that were getting 9 days a month off duty will now be getting 4 days off. Some of those days may be eatten up by trips from the previous day that work into the day off. This is progress?

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

So, as far as I can see, and in my opinion, the only way we can get to the point that we can work on a "schedule" with set work hours for employees, and set start times and schedules for trains, is to either nationalize the entire railroad structure, or make railroads a part of the military.

So long as we have a market driven economy we will have market driven transportation. The customer wants what the customer wants and they want it when and where they want it. When you can schedule the customer, his wants and his time constraints then you can begin the rudiments of scheduling a transportation network and all the variables that affect that network. Of course that is begining to sound like the Soviet form of socialism, the socialism that could not keep pace with the vitality of the Free Worlds market driven economies and imploded of its own inefficiencies.

[edblysard]

Big Z,

First, I know you have heard this on the railroad....

"You do what you gotta do"...

That said, I really am sorry you couldn't get it to work out.

I agree, it does bite when the management can not, or will not take a hard look at the value of a employee, and make an intelligent decision...

What they should have done is decide that having you as an valued employee was worth the cost of letting you take a few weeks off.

I know, I was an employer for a long time, and those employees of mine who were dedicated, and put forth their best every day, well, when they came to me and said they needed down time, sure, it was worth it to me.

I would rather lose them for a month, and have them come back squared away and ready to do their job, than keep them there, with their mind not on what they were doing, but instead, out in the clouds worring about whatever problem they had.

Some places will do that, some will not.

As for the money making the difference between my kids being gang banging slobs, and driving a old car...not really.

Before I went railroading, and after I gave up the retail auto parts biz...I worked for my states Attorney General's office...for the whopping salary of 33K...

Less than half of what the car parts paid....

Drove a 78 Olds Cutlass, wife was stuck with either the 77 Pontiac bomb, or the 78 Dodge D300 extended van, which had 300,000 miles on it.
Thing drank a quart of oil every other day.

Had only two kids then...they did dress out of Kmart, and Target, which was where my wife worked her second job, her first one was also with the agency I worked for.

I was the one who stayed home at night taking care of the kids, cooking and doing the laundry, because the wife went from the second job to night school, to earn her associates degree.

Got totally burned out on the Attorney Generals Office job, I investigated and located missing "absent parents" for the child support division, and I located the hidden assets of these people too.
Also did AFDC (welfare) fraud recovery.

So, after a fun filled day of dealing with what I can only call scum, I would go home and play like a person who had a "normal" job, except that after 8 years of wading through scum, talking to scum, tracking and prosecuting scum...everybody starts to look like scum.

You get to the point you can not have a decent conversation with anyone, your wife included, without the influence of the job jading you view of the person your talking to...everyone and everything becomes suspect.

Wife still works there, she thrives on her part of the process...but I couldn't hack it.

Best darn thing I ever did was turn in my gun and badge.


So, I have been there, where looking for couch change so the kids have lunch money, or you can buy a gallon of gas so the wife can get to work is the normal.

No, I didnt ride the board too long when I got on...I was one of the lucky ones who hired in just as a bunch of old head retired, so my seniority jumped pretty quick.

But, because of the hours I have to have off, I have worked the switching lead for about 6 years solid.
Thats six years of pounding rock and pulling pins...not riding out to work a industry or take a transfer run to another yard.

So, I too have gone home bone tired, covered with some of the most gross gunk in the world, with the blisters on my hands from tying handbrakes all day long and my feet killing me...

I do see some of the guys who, like was previously pointed out, have no life outside of the railroad...and thats partially their fault.

I learned the first year out here, the job can run you, or you can run the job...I chose the latter.

And I agree, not having a life outside of this place is horrible, living for the work, because you couldnt find a way to make your personal life and the job mesh is one of the reasons so many of the guys are divorced.

But, and maybe I am really lucky, my wife and I, along with our (then) two daughters, discussed the merits and the down side to me doing this.

They may not like the times I have to work, and I am not off on the weekends like them, so we dont get to do a lot of the family things "normal" familys do...but we adjust.

For us, the fact that, after driving old, beat up used beaters all her adult life, my wife can now afford a new car every few years, that helps make it worth the hassle.

After hand me downs, my daughters can, within reason, wear some of the nice clothes they like.

But even when we were poor, my kids wore clean, appropriate clothes, with their butt cracks covered!

Thats a matter of how you were raised, and how you raise your kids, not just a matter of money.
I know a lot of "poor" people, whos kids are the kind of children any parent would be proud of.

We dont owe anybody because we do scrimp on some things, and we worked hard to pay off the house, and the cars, and the student loans and the credit cards.

We do get to buy the nice things now, because we went without for a long time.

I drove the same old Jeep for years, its now 10 years old, has 100,000+ miles on it, and I repair it whenever it needs fixing, because I know that it is a good car.
I plan on one of my kids driving it.

If they want a new car, then they need to get a job.

I think what it boils down to is what you want, and what you are willing to do to get it....

All of that said, if anyone could come up with a way to schedule rest for railroaders, without driving the carriers out of business, or increasing the cost of using railroad to the point shippers find any other form of transportation, then I am all for it.

But the economics aren't there...

You can not attract the kind of people you have to have at the railroad on wages any less than what they currently pay...and sometimes, even that isnt enough.

We just finished a switchmans class.

Out of the 18 hires, we are down to 4.

The rest quit, or were turned.

One of the ones who didnt make it, wanted to mark off for a few days, because his dog died, and he needed to bury it properly.(his words)

Others are astounded when they find out we work holidays, they dont get their birthday off.
One even expected to have every other week end off.

No fooling, he really though he could mark off every other weekend.

All of that after we told them, over and over, just how it works.

So the pool of satisfactory "new hires" aint all that great.

The railroads have to offer a wage that attracts a certain type of person, most of us are "A" type personality people, we like doing the job till its done, and done right.

So, as far as I can see, and in my opinion, the only way we can get to the point that we can work on a "schedule" with set work hours for employees, and set start times and schedules for trains, is to either nationalize the entire railroad structure, or make railroads a part of the military.

Either way, it becomes a "public" property and a public utility, running on tax payers money, with out the profit in the equation.

If its the taxpayers wallet your dipping into, and you dont have to earn a return, then you can run it any way you chose.

But, as long as you have to keep the people who invested in your railroad reasonably happy, then what we have right now is pretty much as good as it will get.

Now, I dont fault anyone for walking away from this life....you gotta do what you gotta do...

Like I said before, life is too short to work hard to make someone else happy or wealthy.

It didnt work out for you, and you followed what you felt was the correct course..good for you.

It was a choice you made, you placed the value of your marriage and the love of your kids above and beyond the job...which is what you should have done.

Staying on at the CNW would have been greedy on your part.

You miss it, that comes through loud and clear in your posting.

And I am sorry it worked out that way for you, truly, I am.

I hope that, if in ten years my life changes enough, or my wifes life changes enough that walking away is what I have to do, I can work up the guts to do the same thing as you did.

But right now, it is a choice, not just my choice, but my family's choice for me to railroad.

Like I said, no one lied to me, it was all explained up front, the cruddy hours, zero life at home, hard, dirty work in the "bad" part of town, the danger and the risk.

It won't change much, anytime soon.

So, I adjust to it...after all, it is a choice, just like joining the military, being a cop, a firefighter, or a doctor on call.

Ed

[rrnut282]

Thanks Zardoz for saying what I tried to say in previous posts on this topic.[bow]

[daveklepper]

Mark, I agree with your siesta comment. As to passing costs on to the consumer, first, I think that managements will be even more likely to use the kind of thinking that has led to the just effected CN-CP-NS agreement and compensate with added efficiencies, and there are plenty of places where this kind of thinking can be applied. For example, while I don't want to see traffic reduced on the Grand Junction CO line, it is clear from what you have said that BNSF and UP could reduce costs now by running a joint freight between them, rather than separate trains for the local busines. The same kind of thinking might apply on some of California's lines shared by these two giants. This isn't new of course, the CV and B&M did it years ago, like the Winter issue of CLASSIC TRAINS ponts out. Also, most new regulations of this type are phased in gradually. The fuel tax reductions will also help. But you and I are not going to influence the regulations arrival, but maybe we can do all we can to make the sensible, fair, and least destructive of the thin profits that make freight railroading continue as free enterprise.

[gabe]

Dave,

I am tempted to say something provacative to you, just so you respond and get your third star.

Mark,

I completely agree with your conclusion. I still think naps are a good partial solution though. I know naps are often preceived as being for little kids. But, I think anyone who has had to work long hours in a sleep-deprived environment know they are priceless. If a train has to wait an hour or two in a siding, why not allow one of the two crew members doze off for 45 minutes? Do they allow crew members to do that?

Like I said, I agree with your and Ed's ultimate conclusion. I just think that acknowledging the problem may usher ideas--like naps--that might not be able to solve the problem, but be able to mitigate it a bit.

Gabe

[zardoz]

Ed,

I never asked anyone if they go to work tired, because in my 20 years experience working the pool and extraboard on the CNW, 99% of the crews WERE tired, myself included. And I'm not trying to get personal, but since you put forth some of your lifestyle choices in a previous post, I am going to use them as an example.

You mention that if "you" (a generic term for anybody) had to take a 50% (extreme) cut in pay, your kids would be gang-banging slobs that cannot afford anything decent, and the parents are driving jalopys that can barely run (exaggeration). But what "you" may not realize, is that many people DO get by on whatever 50% of your salary is. And equally, there are people making twice as much as you who would claim that they cannot get by on a 50% pay cut (but "you" are doing it). It is all a matter of priorities.

Most everybody adjusts their lifestyle in response to a change in income. If "you" got a $10K/year raise, chances are that "you" would either get a fancier car, bigger house, whatever, and chances are you would not be saving or investing that additional $10K. I know many people making far more than I do that are living from paycheck to paycheck, live in a fancy house (with hardly any furniture or window treatments because they cannot afford them), drive a fancy (leased) car, and have no money in the bank.

My wife would rather have me home regularly, even if it means we cannot afford a fancy vacation. We value our time together more.

The fact that my kids cannot wear the latest fashions is something they have learned to life with (and quite well, thank you). They prefer to think for themselves, and not be dictated to by the fashion police as to what they 'should' wear. We give the a decent allowance, and have told them if they want to use part of their allowance to buy fancy clothes, we will match their portion of the cost. As of yet, they have not felt the need to spend twice as much for clothing just so they can have a fancy label or advertise for a particular clothing company at their expense.

And we take care of our vehicles, and expect them to last 10 years (and they do). I was quite proud that my old '93 Explorer was still in good operating condition, , but at 200K miles, it was time to move on. So I bought a 2003 at year-end. I plan on getting a 2013 at year-end next.

Perhaps "you" have not spent many years on the board. Once you're on a set schedule for a while, it's easy to forget the life of the board. The first few years did not bother me to work on call; I rather liked it (for many of the reasons you mentioned). But it (the on-call lifestyle) gets old as we get old.

My objection is to the mind-set that continues to perpetuate the horrible living conditions of workers forced to work on-call. And since I did it for 20 years, I feel I am rather qualified to comment. I was fired from the CNW for "insubordination", meaning I refused calls to work. I could not take it any longer. I had requested a leave of absence to work out family issues, and was refused. So I took the time anyway. And got fired for it. I felt my life was more important than what my job had become, even though being an engineer was my childhood fantasy job. And I loved railroading. I was a damn good engineer (in 15 years in the pool, I got only 1 knuckle and 0 drawbars, never had an operational rule violation), but the greed of those unwilling to change, or to even consider that it is possible to change, caused me to have to give up my dream in order to have a life beyond the job.

As I mentioned in another thread on roughly the same subject, back in the 80's the CNW and the local unions tried to agree on some sort of schedule for the on-call crewmen. Those that still had a life beyond the railroad (wife, kids, hobbies), wanted the change; those that had already lost their beyond-the-railroad life wanted no such changes. They wanted to work 11:59 every call, so they could come back again in 8 hours; to them, the idea of taking a day off was abhorent, because their life expenses were so high (alimony, child support). I'm sure their ex-wives appreciated all the hours they spent working.

I made the decision to give up that life, and have not regretted it since. I do miss being on the trains, I just do not miss the lifestyle. I was making (then) $70K/year, was never home to spend it, was nearly divorced because of it, never saw my kids, and felt like crap. Fast-forward 12 years: I am now making only $30K/year, own a new vehicle, only owe $35K on my house, work 8 hours per day and am home every night, and am happily married, and I feel 10 years younger than I felt 10 years ago. I would have none of that now if I had stayed on the railroad.

[daveklepper]

Mark, I don't think the railroads need go out of business if the regulations are sensible and get input from both railroad management and railroad labor and if competitive forms of transportation are given the same scrutiny and regulation. Trucking in particular, but I'll bet even barge lines and coastal and itnernaitonal shipping and air freight could use safety improvements. Rembember what derailed the Sunset Limited near Mobile? So possibly we can expect regulation to come and both management and labor should not fight it but work hard to make sure it is both fair and sensible.

[gabe]

Ed,

I completely agree with your conclusion that the vast majority of trains are not run by droopy-eyed, tired engineers, and I agree with your conclusion regarding the relative safety of trains compared to other modes of transportation (although I would be willing to bet barge and other forms of water transportation would give you a good run for your money)

However, your pointing to doctors is part of the reason I am being so dogged in pursuing this one. I have seen SO many cases with doctors doing really unbelievably stupid things because of sleep deprivation. My thought was, if train engineers make the same degree of mistakes as doctors, we are in trouble.

As far as statistics, I agree that fatigue-type wrecks probably don't happen as much as one might think. However, I did Google “train wrecks and fatigue.” There were MANY federal and NTSB listings (I stopped reading when I got past the 35th one) regarding wrecks that were at least partially attributed to fatigue. That is why I was under my impression.

Like I said though, I don't disagree with your or Mark's conclusion that maybe the status quo might be the best way of handling the problem. It is just that I think it is a problem that we should endeavor to continue to investigate. I don’t want to see you or anyone else get hurt.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

How does a modern locomotive's dead-man control work? If it's still the old dead-man pedal, could a modernized version perhaps using motion sensors or something requiring some kind of control movement within a certain time be used to sound a warning and/or stop the train?? Aircraft have all kinds of warning bells & whistles and as with modern cars, once a computer is used for one thing, it easy to add other features. Corporations will usually complain about almost any cost, but a recent Trains had an article about BNSF installing video cameras to record grade crossing incidents and I always have to wonder where railroads find the money to pay for mergers i.e. what's U.P.'s annual interest expense on bank loans??

I also wonder how the potential destructive energy of a loaded double stack at 70 mph compares to a 767 hitting the WTC towers???

[edblysard]

I think part of whats going on here is a mis understanding of what we really do...
There are yard crews (me)
Hostlers, pilots, Over the Road Crews, Local crews and switch crews...
Each works a little differently...
So, I am going to ask a question, but preface it with this...
After you guys answer my question, I promise to not be sarcastic in my response...

What do you guys think a average over the road, long haul crew does?
I mean in terms of what part of the job requires physical labor, and what part requires the mental labor.
1 engineer, 1 conductor and a brakeman/switchman.

Just think about, oh, lets use the Port/Tulsa BNSF train.

It leaves the PTRA north yard, after dropping off it's inbounds it picked up on the way from Tulsa, and works its way back to Tulsa, Ok.

So the set up is, the inbound Tulsa Port has arrived, cut their train off in our receiving yard.

The crew is too close to the hours of service to start on the outbound Port Tulsa, so they put their locomotives in our tie up track, called their dispatcher, got in a cab and left.
(they called their dispatcher earlier to let her know they would run out of time shortly after making the PTRA)

The new crew has arrived at the locker room/office in the cab the old crew called for, ready to start work.

Just tell me what you think the new crews job involves, between here and Tulsa...

Ready, set, go....
Thanks,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I wonder - instead of changing the system - it may be possible to tailor the system to make more humane and more efficent also.

I envision it this way:

Each crew is composed of 3 people - each of them can perform engineer and conductor duties. They all work in a cycle:

8 hrs sleep -> 8 hrs driving -> 8 hrs conductor -> 8 hrs sleep...

during the conductor duties one can call home, watch tv, do mundane paperwork, prepare food and poke engineer with a cattle rod ;) etc.

The cycle would be (let us say) max 10 days - with 10 free days afterward. Overall the employee would be on duty for 16 hours daily - and would do 8 hour shifts but the crew would be avalible for 10 days straight.

It would be probable to take a train coast-to-coast with just two crews thus less time would be wasted on changing crews. The one "behind the wheel" would be always fresh - thus less probability of something fatal happening. Also - rested employees are less likely to call in sick (sleep depravation does weird things to humans) or retire early due to health problems.

If one has a slave runner mentality then 10 day duty cycle could be trailed by 4 day recuperation cycle - thus getting 11,4 hours per day of each employee (160 hours of work per 14 days) . Union agreement I guess. or maybe 9/5 with 10,28 work hours per day.

So - there is a schedule for the crews (show up at the home terminal each x days - 10 days duty/4-5-10 free) and there is the irregular nature of the railroads (each crew is avalible for 10 days).

One could probably pull this stunt with 2 people (12 hrs sleep -> 12 hrs drive) but the extra benefit of another human close (increased safety and someone to talk to) is lost.

[edblysard]

I never said humans didnt need sleep...
I understand that sleep deprivation is a serious problem,
What I am contending is the assumption that the image protrayed of railroaders working exhausted, all the time...is a true image.
It isnt...
Yes, we do get run hard and put up wet sometimes...and we adjust in other areas to deal with it.

But the image of it being that way all the time isnt true, any more that all interns and ER doctors are all running on a hour sleep in three days or work...or the image of all cops really wanting to be Dirty Harry.

But, if the image of a sleep deprived, drowsey train crew running through your city is what you want, ok...
But go to the FRA stats page, and look at how many accidents are attributed to fatigue.
Not many.
But, if you really wanted to argue the point down to its final conclusion...then every accident, be it in a car, plane, or train, can in some manner be attributed to fatigue and not paying attention.
Human error is the root cause of all accidents.

The fact still exsist that we move more merchendise, more miles, than any other type of transportation mode.
And we do so with fewer accidents, fewer deaths, and fewer dollars in property damage than any of the others...

Could it be better?
Yup, but so could just about any other job...

Ed