What do think about M.W. Hemphill's column in Dec. TRAINS RE:the plight of T&E service?

[Anonymous]

What do think about M.W. Hemphill's column in Dec. 2004 TRAINS RE:the plight of T&E service?

What are your solutions to this problem of super duper or I should say totally unreal working schedules that endanger the Engineers and Conductors themselves and the community through which they operate trains??[:0]

Is there another solution other than a large army of car maintainers and track workers????

[Anonymous]

I think (as a T&E guy) that Mark is absolutely right and no, there is no easy "silver bullet" solution that won't cost an arm and a leg.

LC

[edblysard]

Actually,
we like it the way it is....
Those who want to ride the board do so....
If they cant hack the hours, they cant hack railroading in the first place....
Trust me, this stuff aint for everybody.
First time you get caught out in a hail storm or a thunder storm will let you know if this is for you...the long hours are part of the job.
And, like I posted before, no one lied to me about it, I was told up front the hours were horrible, the work hard, dirty and dangerous.

You know in a week if you want to do this the rest of your life.

Like Mark said, unless they spend several times the amount on personel, it is as good as it can get right now.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Mark is right on the button.

Any solution will run the costs up to the point where no shipper will pay rates that will let the companies stay out of bankruptcy.

There've been several instances where the T&E guys have wanted to change the hours and days of their jobs to those of store or office employees. But when they do that , they reduce the value of their services to that of store or office employees, just like Mark said.

I've told this anecdote before: A train was setting out at a tower I was working and the conductor came up to deliver the waybills. He was grousing mightily about having to work nights (I was the third trick operator, a time I never minded and in fact enjoyed) and weekends and holidays.

When I was able to interject a question, I asked him "if you want a regimented 40-hour work week, why don't you go to work in a store?"

He was honest, I'll say that. He said "you can't make any money working in a store."

If that's the case, why not be happy with your situation and quite b******g about it?

Old Timer

[mvlandsw]

A little more concern for the crews by the people already working in crew management could bring some inprovement. Many times I've been able to look at train lineups in the computer and see that I would not be needed at my away from home terminal. Yet crew management says go to the motel. Then 24 hours later I get a call to deadhead home in a taxi.

[joesap1]

Wow! As usual, Mark's column is succinct and to the point.

I recently applied for a train service job for the UP. Am I crazy, is this foolishness?

I love trains and need a job with better pay and benefits. I realize that I must work all the time and the only real time off will be when I'm on vacation.

[Anonymous]

Operating Railroad jobs are not for the faint of heart and the weak of dedication or constitution.

[daveklepper]

We have child labor laws, even though a pure free enterprise system would allow them to be employed. That is what "Enlightenment" in Adam Smith's definition of the best economic system is all about. Sure we should see legislation passed that guarrantee that any engineer or other trainman on the job has had a decent rest before working and does not work beyond a reasonable time. And if this applies to truck drivers as well, then there will be no economic loss for the railroads in applying this additional safety measure. I think the rail unions themselves should push for it and insist in shouyld also apply to truck and bus drivers. And limousine and cab drivers for that matter!

[Anonymous]

The bravado expressed by the some of the T&E respondees ignores the truth that you guys are operating 5000 to 10,000 Ton freight trains at 40 to 60 MPH through American communities of all sizes at NOT your best state of alertness and sharpness.

Not to mention the fact the during the course of your career your kids don't know who the hell you are! Just a guy or gal who shows up at weird hours and plops on the bed and soon arises at the next telephone call from the crew dispatch center. So much for "family values"!

As a narcotics detective in NYC I know what is like to work all kinds of tours with at all kinds of irregular times with as little as 4 hours between tours of duty. There were more than a few times that I found myself falling asleep at the wheel at 40 to 60 MPH. In fact I had friends of mine had car accidents on the way home due to the fact of being so tired.

So saying how "BIG and BAD" your are for being a T&E crew member and how it is not for the faint of heart misses the point entirely. As dangerous as my job is I don't have to be 100% alert all the time. There is down time in the office, preparation, etc. But you guys got be alert ALL THE TIME or someone gets hurt or killed. No way you can say with a straight face that the way the system is set up now that you are operating America's freight trains at the highest level of safety and efficiency.

Airline crews even the freight carriers like UPS and FedEx have a schedule while they are away from home for a period of time they can at least plan their lives to some degree. The FAA had long recognized you can't treat flight crews like "rented mules" and still have a world leading aviation system.

I think you Engineers and Conductors deserve much better than you have been putting up with and especially YOUR CHILDREN. They need their fathers and mothers not just financial and benefit providers. And not to mention America deserves better, knowing that the crew members of that merchandise freight trains barrelling through town at 50 MPH with multiple carloads containing some of the most dangerous chemicals known to man is fully rested and alert.

[Anonymous]

Colin-

I have to agree with Mark generally, but, let me say the following:

1. There is no comparison between being a cop and being in T&E service. In case you are wondering, yes I have done both. Police officers on patrol are shift workers. Even detectives in large departments are primarily shift work. On the railroad, your shift begins anytime and effectively ends anytime the RR desires as although you can operate a train for a maximum of 12 hours we often have limbo time that makes it a LOT worse. The MAJOR difference is that with shift work, even though it varies there is always the ability to plan something. On the RR, forget it. This leads to rest issues above and beyond what you can expect from shift work.

2. In the same way Cops look for OT, Railroaders want there shot at the best wage they can get. As Mark correctly points out RRers will fight to perpetuate this situation. Look at some of the efforts made by RRs, particularly the IC and UP to schedule shift work. RRers hated it and voted against it or refused to participate due to the loss of income.

3. As to down time, we get some of that too. Not all of our time is spent running the train. Most of us wish it was.

LC

[Anonymous]

Limited Clear

As a Narc I DO NOT have regularly set shift. The Commanding Officer sets a schedule sometimes but he will change it at the last minute. Every single day is different from the next. The only time I work human hours is when I am scheduled for court or training. So I have more in common w/T&E crews than a regular Detective or PO.

What I thank God for is the RDO Regular Days Off which T&E guys do not have I does give a bit of sanity to an insane situation.

Mark, I heard of UP's effort to bring regularity to crew scheduling but what was IC's efforts consist of??

[Anonymous]

Some improvements have been made to work scheduling for road boards. For instance, BNSF, at some stations but not all, have 'rest cycles" for xtra bd & pool bd crews. You have the option of taking the days or staying marked up and make more money. For example, the road boards at Enid,OK and W Qiuncy, MO are "7&3" jobs where you stay marked up for 7 days, then can take 1 to 3 days off on your rest cycle if you so choose. This is a postive move and does help somewhat to have a life outside of the rr.

[gabe]

I certainly agree with Mark's conclusion that the way Colin stated his contentions his point would not be well taken. Furthermore, let me say, I have nothing but respect for the difficulty and professionalism that constitutes your average railroad worker. However, to state Colin's point a little more differently, I do see a problem with the many above statements, which effectively argue, “railroading is for tough, rugged individuals therefore, if you aren't tough enough to handle the lack of sleep, do not apply.”

I think there is a "we can handle it because we are tough" attitude in railroading that is a remnant of Civil War military personnel infiltrating the ranks of railroads after the war. Although this attitude is often beneficial, I don't think it is when it relates to sleep.

Sleep deprivation is not simply a matter of toughness. In my line of work, I see the tragic results of absolutely brilliant--and often "tough"--people who are sleep deprived doing something that they would never do in a million years on a good night's sleep. Also, one should look at Army research concerning individual's effectiveness when sleep deprived. The Army is just as tough as railroads--yet their results conclusively show lack of sleep substantially reduces the effectiveness of otherwise competent individuals. More chilling is this statistic in relation to "friendly fire" incidents.

Saying if you aren't tough, you shouldn't be a railroader just adds to the problem. It makes people feel as though they better not let anyone know that they are getting tired while they are in charge of a 10,000-ton chemical train--because that wouldn't be tough. When the adrenalin is pumping, you might be able to effectively fight your way though sleep deprivation problems. However, one cannot run on adrenalin for twelve hours and there is nothing to really cause the body to produce adrenalin.

Gabe

P.S. Something that I am surprised hasn't been mentioned thus far is naps. I seem to remember hearing that UP is now allowing 45-minute naps in certain circumstances. I think this is a great compromise. 45 minutes rest can really help someone's effectiveness. I hope there aren't UP engineers who are too "tough" to admit that they need a nap when that nap might help their safety and that of their train.

[Anonymous]

Gabe-

Many of the major systems have gone the napping route including UP, BNSF, Conrail, CSX and others. NS I believe does it at some larger terminals as well.

I can remember many a night heading out for my 1 1/2 hour trip home and hitting one or more napping stops at rest areas or convenience stores. The Extra List stinks and I was able to stay off it and regulate my hours a bit better on regular jobs as time went by. Seniority is a wonderful thing.

LC

[gabe]

From people who seem to know a lot about railroading and, thus far, have commanded my respect. To quote from this thread--alone--:

"Actually,
we like it the way it is....
Those who want to ride the board do so....
If they cant hack the hours, they cant hack railroading in the first place....
Trust me, this stuff aint for everybody.
First time you get caught out in a hail storm or a thunder storm will let you know if this is for you...the long hours are part of the job."

"If that's the case, why not be happy with your situation and quite b******g about it?"

"Operating Railroad jobs are not for the faint of heart and the weak of dedication or constitution."

I am not sure my characterization is unsupported by these statements.
Gabe

[gabe]

Also, I certainly am not suggesting that railroaders seek danger for the sake of danger. Of course that is nonesense. However, even Limitedclear's post suggested that being tired is part of the job, and you better be able to handle it.

My only contention is that people can't "tough their way out of being tired" and from the posts under this heading alone--to say nothing of other threads, there seems to be a culture among railroaders that they shouldn't "complain"--to use a slightly different word--when the job gets tough. In short, I was responding to the contention that it is possible to tough your way out of being tired--I was not faulting railroaders for the realities of their chosen occupation.

Gabe

[daveklepper]

Marc, i GOT THE MESSAGE. But we still hear about terminal delays being a major cause of long hours, of lack of coordination between the main line dispatchers and the yardmasters who have to receive and dispatch the trains. Both problems can be alleviated, that is this congestion problem and the crew alertness situation, by scheduling operations as much as possible, with intelligent planning that takes into consideration, yes the parking lot capacity and the washrooms and of course the physical track layout and the equipment and the expected traffic and most improtant the people. Apparently the BNSF Transcon and NS's Triple Crown are pretty close to this ideal and the UP Chemical Coast the area needing the most improvement.

[edblysard]

First,
I read back through, and can't find a thing about "rough and tough" "we can handle anything"

What I can find is what I said..."if you can't hack the hours, you can't hack railroading"

Not because "us" railroaders are a tough bunch of guys...but because we have adjusted our lives to fit the schedule.

What I mean if you can't do that,(adjust) you cant railroad...just as much as "if you cant hack the hours, you cant be a cop".

Maybe I should have said,"If you cant live this lifestyle, you shouldn't try this for a living"

Why?

Because the railroad isnt going to undergo a radical change in that area, by mutual consent of both parties.

Police departments arent going to change much in that area either, are they?

Collin, how often have you trailed a suspect, or sat on a suspect's location, for hours at a time, doing nothing but watching and listening?

Lots, if your a career law enforcment officer.

So, after say, 10 hours of sitting in a van, or a house across the street from a suspect's house, and everything suddenly goes wrong, I am supposed to trust you to be awake and alert enough to draw and use your sidearm in a safe manner, in a highly populated urban area, if the need arises?

If you can answer yes to that question, then you already know the answer to how we can sit on locomotive up to 12 hours, working our way across the country, and still be trusted to do the right thing if and when the need arises.

The same reason you can be trusted with a sidearm...training, then some more training, after which we train some, followed by a little more training....

We get tested on a regular basis, every thing from rules knowledge to red flag stop test...those that pass are the guys running the trains.

As a cop, are you required to perform a profeciency test every quarter, both in applied situtiations and in theory?

Do you have to undergo random drug test?

When was the last time your commander tested your "driving" skills?

How often are you required to quote a rule of the day, both a opperating rule and a safety rule?

We do, every day.

I would assume that, as I was required to qualify yearly with my sidearm when I worked for my state's Attorney General's Offiice, you are required to do so also.

So, even though you are required to sit in the most boring, mind numbing situations, and often required to react with little or no warning to a life threatening situation, you expect the public to trust your judgement, and feel you are qualified to do your job correctly, with the publics interest in mind.

I expect the same thing, and feel the same way.

Trust me, if we were not qualified, and very, very sure of what we do, we wouldnt be here.

Something not often discussed is our rules, and the fact that most of them are redundent...you cant break one rule only, you have to make a effort to do that. and every rule we work under has another rule that, in some manner, covers another rule, which makes you obey another rule...almost a failsafe set of rules.

If you follow them all, to the letter, you pretty much cant screw up.

Not to say it dosnt happen, but how many train wrecks, blamed on crew fatigue only, can you list here?

Considering the sheer number of miles, in the millions, we run every year, its safer to ride with us"rough, tough, macho minded" guys than it is to walk across a busy suburban street.

You have a better chance of being struck by lightning, hit by a car while crossing the street, or bitten by a snake, than that of you being hurt in a train wreck.

Ed
[:D]

[MP173]

It seems to me that I hear about train wrecks involving crews falling asleep and running signals frequently.

Lots of respect for train crews and cops for the schedules you endure. Personally I couldnt handle it and I choose not to.

I do feel the industry has an obligation to it's employees, shareholders, and customers, plus the communities they serve to address issues of safety. Now, whether or not this is a big enough "issue of safety", I dont know. It sounds as if the 7and 3 schedule system would be a step in the right direction. But, to say that railroads cannot economically address this issue...I find that hard to believe. Fire Departments, ambulance services, off shore drilling companies and many others have faced and addressed the issue.

ed

[Anonymous]

Weres Ed Elis? the creator of Express he is missing from the artical

[Anonymous]

Bid a yard job, days or afternoons are alright.

[passengerfan]

And truckdriving long distance is no better. Sure their are logbooks that drivers are supposed to fill out accurately and no more than ten hours driving after eight hours rest. I can attest to the fact that most drivers run two or more log books and can remember many times that it would have been my job if I had failed to make a delivery. One case I rtemember loading all day finishing at 5:00 PM in Long Beach CA then being told the load needed to be in Albuquerque at 9:00 am the next morning. Somehow I always made it but today having reached retirement I am paying the price aches and pains and poor health. Was it worth it no. Would I do it again if I had it to do all over again probably.

[jeaton]

Looking over the posts on this topic and the previous topic on the same subject, I think there has been a tendency to mix the issues of life style and safety. Both are or can be a consequence of the nature of the job.

There is no doubt in my mind that the absence of any predictable work schedule will have an impact on family life, or even on the life of a single person. As a single person, I worked in train service and two weeks after my initial mark-up, I had worked during every hour of a day. I have had other on-call or erratically scheduled jobs, both as a single and married person. The inability to plan family or social events sucked, however, just like anybody taking a T&E job, I knew just what I was facing. I decided that the compensation for those jobs was was satisfactory, so I accepted the jobs. As Mark and severals other have noted, implementing a tightly scheduled railroad operation as a solution to this issue is considerably more than little off the mark from a cost/benefit consideration.

No doubt the scheduling situation also contributes to fatigue and sleep depravation, however it seems to me that some things can be done to mitigate those conditions. While somewhat easier said than done, getting the right number of people on a given roster can help. The object would be to avoid having so few on the roster that calls with minimum rest is the norm and also having too many on the list so that employee earning levels drop below an acceptable level. The other items mentioned such as allowing a crew member to nap when circumstances allow or providing for full rest days at some frequency could reduce dangerous incidents of fatique and sleep depravation.

But as Mark has noted, there is no magic bullet, no easy solutions. And that, I believe, is a common situation in the world today.

Jay

[arbfbe]

When I hired out for the railroad in 1969 a road trip lasted about 4 hours and time at home was generally in the 24 to 30 hour range. We had a monthly mileage agreement that forced you to take time off when you hit that mark. The carriers said we were all a bunch of featherbedders and collected 8 hrs or more pay for less than 8 hrs work.

Fast foreward 35 years to today. I commonly work 70 hrs per week and have for years now. When things get really busy I get the opportunity to work 90 hrs for several weeks in a row. Management's atitude is that since I get payed it is a fair deal. If I don't want to work the extra hours that is too bad, I am needed. Remember, railroads are exempted from the Fair Labor Standards Act which mandates overtime after 40 hrs work in a week. My average trips are over 10 hrs now so is the railroad getting a deal here or what? We have good benefits on the railroads and that makes us high fixed cost employees. Most other industries, think steel, manufacturing and now the airlines are finding ways to reduce their level of benefits and the railroads are behind the curve there. They feel justified in squeezing the most hours out of every employee they can. The pendulum of featherbedding vs indentured servitude has swung too far in the carriers favor.

The industry has it's head in the sand concerning sleep deprivation. Ask your doctor about an Awakeness Maintenance test. Try it yourself. The employees on trains are not just zoning out while at the controls they are asleep! Their eyes are open, their chins are not on their chests but their brainwaves are showing sleep. Railroad management thinks you can fight it but in reality it will overcome you. Managers have no idea about how autonomous the job becomes after weeks of trip after trip with only 8 or 10 hours off between on BOTH ends of the road.

Railroads, the only INDUSTRY that required and act of Congress, the Federal Hours of Service Act to remind them that their empolyees need at least 8 hrs off after a day's work. The industry has taken that as their mantra concerning rest. Eight hours off is all you need because the government says so. Pay for a study to see what rail empolyees really need? No way, the FRA says 8 hrs off is all that is needed, that is all we need to know.

Imagine the difference if Ricky Gates had walked down the tracks with Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes and told him , "All train crews are working tired, everyone is doing it and that is why I missed the signal in front of Amtrak and killed those people." Instead he said the problem was drug use so we have random drug tests instead of better rest rules.

[Anonymous]

On the operating side, railroading is not a job it is a LIFE STYLE.

Not everyone is up to living the railroad life style.

Those in the rail industry hear all the time about nepotisim, and all those allegations are in the negative context. The reality is that nepotism pre-conditions the younger generation to the committments that taking operating positions is all about and the sons and daughters of railroader, if they desire working for the railroads, will stay around and become life long rail empoyees themselves. There is currently a tremendous turn over among newly hired train service employees, who get hired, complete the training, begin protecting their turn and come to the realization that they are not cut out for the life style and its committments. So the hiring merry-go-round commences all over again to fill vacant Train Service positions.

[oltmannd]

I think that RRs would like nothing better than to have a situation where steady, predictable traffic volumes and precision operationg would allow steady, predictable crew schedules. That would make life SO much easier! No more scrambling to find crews for extra trains or waiting on crew's rest to try to run the scheduled trains. Why, you'd hardly need a crew dispatching office!

But, unless you're operating the Disney World RR, that's not happening any time soon. I think the RRs may sneak up on this over the long haul, though. As RRs reach their capacity, they may use rates to keep the steady, base load traffic and drive off some of the shipper's "overflow" business. There should also be some improvement over time in the equipment and physical plant reliability as increasing profits allow investment in updated technology (provided another round of mergers don't suck the cash out of the business again)

[route_rock]

Your all right yet all wrong as well.I agree its a lifestyle as is trucking. But sorry I think those that perpetuate a get used to it or else attitude is going to be like the dinosaurs of the trucking world. !4 years as a driver folks and I tried to be one of them asphalt superheros.NO MORE! I have seen what it will do to you.LC and all you guys with droopy eyelids do you drink a lot of coffee, soda to stay awake? Say hello to insulin in a needle my friends.How many old truckers do youknow that are diabetics?Its all about lifestyle. Hate to toss that scary curve ball but you gotta know its coming soon to a health problem in you. Do you eat regular? and do you take rest room breaks regular?Not in that lifestyle I know cause I never did.Read up on health issues of eating then just either sitting or going to sleep soon after eating and getting little to no exercise.Causes a LOT of serious digestional problems. Do I have your peoples attention now?Good! 7&3 sounds like a great deal us OTR drivers got a day off for a week out.Bad news is most of the time you were so tired you slept for two days straight.But if you guys run 12 hours on 8 off back and forth shouldnt be as big of a problem.Dont worry about your 8 off anymore either.If the feds want to get involved it will be 10. Ask any trucker and any trucking company.They are now paying their people for any docktime over an hour. I know a lot of people dont know that in certain types of trucking(reefer and warehouse stuff) you can sit for up to 10 hours waiting to load and unload.Trucking companies are adjusting and some of them are right at a 98% operating ratio.They may jump to 99% or even over the 1.00 mark and then no profits only losses but hey thats buissness something else will have to be cut then.You want revolving door hiring go down to a OTR comapnay and see all the newbies coming onboard.I dont mean the guys with time in the industry but all the brand new ones.Give em less than 4 months.Tractors that sit dont make money.Go see the hiring bonuses the home time and all the other stuff trucking is giving.Most are lies but some places really do what they say.Railroads need to do something and sorry but you dinosaurs are going to be extinct someday.The I am tough can drive railroad whatever all night all day is OVER! And before any says I couldnt hack it think of this ,I drove 23 hours a day week in week out for 2 years slept all weekend when I was home. ran ONE logbook (obviously very very flase) and I did it cause that was the mindset.You want to be a driver you dont sleep.You are doing it for the money.Well health concerns scare me. I am a firefighter EMT on the side and I dont want to be dead at 40!So I CHANGED! Life is more important to you and your loved ones than it is for money. Stay safe wake up and try to change the system.Youd be suprised look at railroad history at how it used to be!Do those people that did change the industry proud.They didnt have it as good as we do.[soapbox]

[BaltACD]

Schedule...schedule...schedule

All the working problems can be eliminated by a schedule....In utopia it can.

In the real world the Business Cycle does not adhere to any schedule. Without the business cycle adhereing to a schedule, the operations of all those individuals, companies and industries also operate on their individaul sets of priorities and resources and do so in a toally unscheduled manner. With the causes of business fluction being unscheduled how can the transportation industry (rail, water, air, highway, pipeline) operate in a totally scheduled way.....THEY CAN'T. The products shipped, the times of shipment are all dependent on factors that are beyond the control of ANY transportation company. The market drives the requirement to transport goods and the market has no schedule.

You are the market, I am the market you next door neighbor is the market....are your personal purchases 'scheduled', have you published your scheduled so that the business cycle can be aware of your needs and have all the proper resources in motion at the proper time to fulfill your personal need.....NOT HARDLY!

Transportation companies either deliver their service in a manner and timeliness that is acceptable to their customers or they are replaced, for those reasons transportation companies have to jump through the customers hoops or the competition gets the business.

[Anonymous]

My complements to Mark on his November 2004 Trains column. It is well written, knowlegable and worthy of discussion. I myself cannot go into this topic but can only sit up and pay attention with no small amount of admiration and respect to those of you that are in the operating side of the railroad enterprise. I have built my share of railroads as a member of the Southern Company's power plant construction department, but that does not qualify me to participate as such on any side of the discussion . I just hope that fairness is maintained and that rancor be kept to a minimum

[daveklepper]

Mark, I apologize. Usually, I've remembered to spell correctly. But let me mention that Rabbi Marc Angel is (still) my New York City Rabbi who I still consult on occasion and he was the President of the Rabinical Council of America, the largest group of Orthodox Rabbis in America. So, there is a reason for may mistake. Still I do apologize!