What do think about M.W. Hemphill's column in Dec. TRAINS RE:the plight of T&E service?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Mark, I apologize. Usually, I've remembered to spell correctly. But let me mention that Rabbi Marc Angel is (still) my New York City Rabbi who I still consult on occasion and he was the President of the Rabinical Council of America, the largest group of Orthodox Rabbis in America. So, there is a reason for may mistake. Still I do apologize!

OY, VEY...

LC

[edblysard]

Well, Darn it., LC, Nate, Wabash, Randy, Kenno and Mark,

I guess they should take all us hard headed, old, wore out, droopy eyed, diabetic, tought, we can do it macho minded fools out to the back forty, and shoot us old horses for the fools we are.

Then they can run all the railroads on a schedule, give everybody holidays off, maybe birthdays and the Fourth of July.
They can all go to work at 8am, take lunch at 12:00 to 1:00, and all go home at 5:00pm.

That way, they have time to fini***heir Starbucks coffee and the morning paper, still have time to get the trains out on schedule, and be home in time for the evening news...

Jeeze, we've been dumb so long, running trains 24/7, when all we had to do was schedule it like, oh, UPS or FedEx...
Us Silly old heads...


[:D]Ed[:p]

[jeaton]

EB

You forgot that there has to be 15 minute breaks each morning and afternoon to get a Starbucks refill! [V][V]

Jay

[arbfbe]

RE: BaltACD

If only you could see it from the other side. Railroads are failing miserably in delivering the goods to the customers in any sort of a timely fashion. I had an intermodal yesterday that was only 400 miles from the Pacific Coast and it was 27 hours late already. That is only the tip of the iceberg when you start looking at individual carloads that are hundreds of hours late, that is like a week or more.

What your are missing is that the railroads are expecting more and more from their operating department employees. Not to make the trains and cargos make scheduled delivery but to trim the bottom line. it is not just a railroad phenomon but common to almost all sufrace transportation modes. Instead of getting better hours in service are increasing and hours at rest, and rest is far more than just sleep, are being reduced. Somewhere there is going to be a brick wall for the industry to run into. It will be announced as an unexpected and unpredictable event by railroad managers. The public will be appalled at what has been going on. Small changes or even massive restructuring may result. It has been too long coming.

Mark is right, costs to the industry will be going up. They should have been going up for some time now. I still move 200+ loaded containers for almost 300 miles at about $1 per mile in direct labor and not over $2 per mile with all benefits. That works out to pennies per container per mile. Yet management screams about excessive labor costs. They tell us about how much a trucker will work for then fail to note the trucker is moving two containers max for a longer distance. They also fail to tell us that the trucker has not effectively had a raise in about 20 years and turnover in that industry is so abysmal that it exceeds 100% annually in some terminals. High labor costs have been such an excuse by rail managers for so long it is inbred into their mind set. It is the great bugaboo for any failing in the industry. They have reduced employees so many times that it no longer works yet when they see it failing they only see an opportunity to reduce more jobs in the hopes it will work once again like it did in the 1980s.

Look at any of the availability requirements on a class one these days. The railroad wants you on duty or preparing for duty 24/7/365. Their attitude is that you get 8 hrs at home with the family every third day and that should be enough. Oh, but first get your sleep so we can use you all night at a 75 minute notice. The first improvement should be an 8 hour calling time. At least then you would know when to go to bed and there would not be any surprises in the middle of the night. The railroads will counter that is too hard to do account all the vagauries of the industry. Get real, if you can't predict where the train will be within eight hours your are not managing the process you are only reacting to the situation, grab onto the tail and hang on tight. The unions have done a poor job in presenting their case to the public but an eight hour call would be an easy sell to the man on the street. Seventy five to ninety minutes is all the railroad needs now to change it all so let's make them think about what they are doing instead. Manage the beast instead of trying to just hang onto the tail. Like I noted earlier, the goods are not getting to the customers now, maybe managing the system for the employees will result in better service to the customers as well. I am still getting called and then waiting in the terminal for 2 - 7 hours to leave the terminal now so their 75 - 90 minute call windows are not working that well either.

Alan

[edblysard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

EB

You forgot that there has to be 15 minute breaks each morning and afternoon to get a Starbucks refill! [V][V]

Jay

Durn it, I also forgot the carrier sponsered day care at the home terminal,,,except there is no home or away terminal, because we are on a schedule, and will be home every day by 5:00!

[:D]Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Well, Darn it., LC, Nate, Wabash, Randy, Kenno and Mark,

I guess they should take all us hard headed, old, wore out, droopy eyed, diabetic, tought, we can do it macho minded fools out to the back forty, and shoot us old horses for the fools we are.

Then they can run all the railroads on a schedule, give everybody holidays off, maybe birthdays and the Fourth of July.
They can all go to work at 8am, take lunch at 12:00 to 1:00, and all go home at 5:00pm.

That way, they have time to fini***heir Starbucks coffee and the morning paper, still have time to get the trains out on schedule, and be home in time for the evening news...

Jeeze, we've been dumb so long, running trains 24/7, when all we had to do was schedule it like, oh, UPS or FedEx...
Us Silly old heads...


[:D]Ed[:p]

Ed, I dunno if I'd still know how to work out here. Would we get re-training??

LC

[edblysard]

LC,

Most likely they will have to re-train some of us to be a little more warm and fuzzy...
and of course, we will have to learn to be more in touch with the inner self, and let lose the repressed child trapped inside.

That will help a lot with life at home, and make us more in tune with the times, a lot more available and accessable to our kids, who will obviously enjoy our new, extended presence at home.

And being as we are now a intergral part of our new nuclear family, our wives and our 2.5 kids (and one dog) will understand completly that we now earn only half of what we used to earn.

They will enjoy the fact we are home for vacation, even though we can't afford to go anywhere.

I know my wife is going to love driving the same Durango for the next 10 years!

I have been away so much though, I have a lot of questions for the stay at home Dads...

Why do you let kids wear tennis shorts so long they almost touch their ankles, and so baggy they have to hold them on with one hand?

What is the deal with their boxer shorts hanging out the top, showing off their butt crack?

And the sideways hat?

(trying to be warm and fuzzy )Ed[:D]

[MP173]

Alan:

Well said. The industry does not plan and execute very well. Service deteriorates and customers look for alternatives. The railroad's mantra has always been "where else are you going to go?" Captive.

It is just not a real healthy industry.

ed

[gabe]

Ed,

Just to be clear, "macho" was not my chosen term, and as I stated in my post, I nothing but respect the professionalism of railroaders and have never questioned their choices.

My only contention is--and I realize you never used the term “tough”--is that you can't deal with sleep deprivation by being tough and that seems to be many people's responses to the problem--i.e. some can hack it, some cannot.

I am not faulting railroaders for being "tough;" it is a "tough" job, not for the weak. I am, however, saying that studies more than demonstrate that the toughest people in the world make decisions they shouldn't and otherwise wouldn't because of sleep deprivation.

I specifically stated that I agree with Mark’s conclusion that railroads may be choosing the best alternative available and I specifically stated that I respect railroaders--including you (which was implied by my statement).

However, I don't think it is irrational that, as a concerned citizen, to be alarmed that the "answer" to problems of sleep deprivation were those contained in my quoted statements. Chosen life style, etc. is a perfect response for those who were questioning your chosen life style; I was just do not think chosen life style, etc. is a good response to the problem of sleep deprivation.

Gabe

[zardoz]

WHAT IS SLEEP?
Sleep is a biological state that is caused by the discharge of specific neurons in certain parts of the brain. It involves an alternate cycle of non-rapid eye movement (NREM) and rapid eye movement (REM). The cycle consists of 80 minutes NREM followed by 10 minutes of REM. This 90 minute cycle is repeated 3 to 6 times during the night.

Sleep occupies one third of our existence.
It is necessary for our physical and mental health.
Sleep affects almost every physiological and psychological process. The body has normal low cycles called circadian rhythm lows. The most dramatic low time is between 2 A.M. and 6 A.M. The second rhythm low is not as dramatic in presentation and occurs between 2 P.M. and 6 P.M. These lows are represented by increased sleepiness.

When we do not get enough sleep, our body will physically try hard to make us sleep and psychologically we crave it. As a veteran shift worker, the primary focus of our night shift conversations was comparing how many hours of sleep we had that day.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following article is from: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/09/20/sleep.deprivation/

LONDON (CNN) -- Night owls take note: new research offers yet another reason to get more sleep. In a study published this week in the British journal Occupational and Environmental Medicine, researchers in Australia and New Zealand report that sleep deprivation can have some of the same hazardous effects as being drunk.

Getting less than 6 hours a night can affect coordination, reaction time and judgment, they said, posing "a very serious risk."

Drivers are especially vulnerable, the researchers warned. They found that people who drive after being awake for 17 to 19 hours performed worse than those with a blood alcohol level of .05 percent. That's the legal limit for drunk driving in most western European countries, though most U.S. states set their blood alcohol limits at .1 percent and a few at .08 percent.

The study said 16 to 60 percent of road accidents involve sleep deprivation. The researchers said countries with drunk driving laws should consider similar restrictions against sleep-deprived driving.

The British Medical Association warned that there are other problems associated with sleep deprivation beyond impaired motor skills. People who get too little sleep may have higher levels of stress, anxiety and depression, and may take unnecessary risks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The railroads (and some railroaders) can justify working tired all they want (railroad: it cost's to much to schedule trains; railroaders: I need the money, so when my wife divorces me because I'm never home, she gets a bigger settlement), but if we as a society do not want people driving a car while suffering the above mentioned effects, I sure as hell do not want pilots or engineers or doctors involved in anything that could cause my early demise. Perhaps those that make these risky decisions should be the ones to be affected by them. Put the rail executives in houses next to the tracks; use the tired pilots on corporate flights; the tired doctors can work on their own family members.

Sure, it will cost more to give people a real life. But how much is your life worth?

For how many dollars will you give up your health, your safety, your life?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/

http://www.sleepnet.com/depriv.htm

[edblysard]

You know,
Not a single person asked if I go to work tired..

No one asked how much I sleep...or don't sleep.

Didnt see anyone ask if LC, Nat, Wabash, Randy or the rest of us if anyone of us go to work tired...

You assumed we did, and do...but you never asked.

You assumed that your example of the "correct" lifestyle choice was idea for us, or a lifestyle we would chose if offered the chance.

You gathered your information from medical studies, magazine stories, TV and news coverage and newspaper reports, but I cant find one instance where you guys asked us, the railroaders, if this is how it is with us.

Who'ed a thunk it....all thoses brains working this hard, and not a one of you seemed to realized you have access to the guys who live this way, and not a one of you bothered to ask the basic questions you were taught to ask in 8th grade English/Journalism...Who, What, When, Where and Why....

And, all the time you guys were lamenting over us poor, tired, overworked, sleep deprived railroaders, none of you bothered to ask us if that is how we really live.

Did anyone bother to look at the times us tired guys post here?


Sure, my wife would enjoy me being home on the weekends, but there is a trade off to all of this...money is part of it, but personal choice is another part of it to.

I dont have to wear a suit and tie to work anymore, but now, when I do buy a suit, (and I do like nice clothes) it isnt from JC Pennys...I have mine hand made at a tailor's shop.

My wife and kids dont have to shop Wal-Mart, Kmart or Target, they shop at Dillards, Foleys, Lord and Taylor...

We dont owe anyone other than Chrysler, pretty much debt free.

My 11 year old went to the UK for two weeks last summer, and now that she is 12, she is headed off to Australia and New Zeland for three weeks this summer.

When I go out shopping for tools, lawnmowers, stuff, I dont have to fight weekend crowds.

We dont wait in line at restrauants, or movies...and yes, we have time to do all of those things.

Most railroaders do also, because we have structured our lives around the way the system works.

Guys on the extra board know if they are going to be called out right away when they get off, they go home, eat, and go to bed.

Those that dont, well, they dont make it too long in jobs like this.

Guys with regular shifts, like me, who have 12 to 16 hours between start times, we live almost normal lives, just a few hours off from everybody else.

If we didnt like what we do, and didnt find a hugh amount of satisfaction in our work, we wouldn't do it.

How many of you guys work at a job you hate, or one that is running you ragged?

I bet not many of you...

And those of you who are in that position, shame on you...life is way to short to run yourself to death making someone else happy or wealthy.

Man, if you are going to work hard, then work hard for yourself and your family.

[gabe]

(1) I Never questioned nor disrespected your life style choices, nor would I.

(2) I didn't need to question Limitedclear as to whether he go tired, as an earlier post in this thread unequivocally said that he did.

(3) Humans need sleep, and as long as there are freight trains carrying chemicals and other hazardous materials through neighborhoods, nothing short of statistical evidence will convince me that they don't.

Gabe

[edblysard]

I never said humans didnt need sleep...
I understand that sleep deprivation is a serious problem,
What I am contending is the assumption that the image protrayed of railroaders working exhausted, all the time...is a true image.
It isnt...
Yes, we do get run hard and put up wet sometimes...and we adjust in other areas to deal with it.

But the image of it being that way all the time isnt true, any more that all interns and ER doctors are all running on a hour sleep in three days or work...or the image of all cops really wanting to be Dirty Harry.

But, if the image of a sleep deprived, drowsey train crew running through your city is what you want, ok...
But go to the FRA stats page, and look at how many accidents are attributed to fatigue.
Not many.
But, if you really wanted to argue the point down to its final conclusion...then every accident, be it in a car, plane, or train, can in some manner be attributed to fatigue and not paying attention.
Human error is the root cause of all accidents.

The fact still exsist that we move more merchendise, more miles, than any other type of transportation mode.
And we do so with fewer accidents, fewer deaths, and fewer dollars in property damage than any of the others...

Could it be better?
Yup, but so could just about any other job...

Ed

[Anonymous]

I wonder - instead of changing the system - it may be possible to tailor the system to make more humane and more efficent also.

I envision it this way:

Each crew is composed of 3 people - each of them can perform engineer and conductor duties. They all work in a cycle:

8 hrs sleep -> 8 hrs driving -> 8 hrs conductor -> 8 hrs sleep...

during the conductor duties one can call home, watch tv, do mundane paperwork, prepare food and poke engineer with a cattle rod ;) etc.

The cycle would be (let us say) max 10 days - with 10 free days afterward. Overall the employee would be on duty for 16 hours daily - and would do 8 hour shifts but the crew would be avalible for 10 days straight.

It would be probable to take a train coast-to-coast with just two crews thus less time would be wasted on changing crews. The one "behind the wheel" would be always fresh - thus less probability of something fatal happening. Also - rested employees are less likely to call in sick (sleep depravation does weird things to humans) or retire early due to health problems.

If one has a slave runner mentality then 10 day duty cycle could be trailed by 4 day recuperation cycle - thus getting 11,4 hours per day of each employee (160 hours of work per 14 days) . Union agreement I guess. or maybe 9/5 with 10,28 work hours per day.

So - there is a schedule for the crews (show up at the home terminal each x days - 10 days duty/4-5-10 free) and there is the irregular nature of the railroads (each crew is avalible for 10 days).

One could probably pull this stunt with 2 people (12 hrs sleep -> 12 hrs drive) but the extra benefit of another human close (increased safety and someone to talk to) is lost.

[edblysard]

I think part of whats going on here is a mis understanding of what we really do...
There are yard crews (me)
Hostlers, pilots, Over the Road Crews, Local crews and switch crews...
Each works a little differently...
So, I am going to ask a question, but preface it with this...
After you guys answer my question, I promise to not be sarcastic in my response...

What do you guys think a average over the road, long haul crew does?
I mean in terms of what part of the job requires physical labor, and what part requires the mental labor.
1 engineer, 1 conductor and a brakeman/switchman.

Just think about, oh, lets use the Port/Tulsa BNSF train.

It leaves the PTRA north yard, after dropping off it's inbounds it picked up on the way from Tulsa, and works its way back to Tulsa, Ok.

So the set up is, the inbound Tulsa Port has arrived, cut their train off in our receiving yard.

The crew is too close to the hours of service to start on the outbound Port Tulsa, so they put their locomotives in our tie up track, called their dispatcher, got in a cab and left.
(they called their dispatcher earlier to let her know they would run out of time shortly after making the PTRA)

The new crew has arrived at the locker room/office in the cab the old crew called for, ready to start work.

Just tell me what you think the new crews job involves, between here and Tulsa...

Ready, set, go....
Thanks,
Ed

[Anonymous]

How does a modern locomotive's dead-man control work? If it's still the old dead-man pedal, could a modernized version perhaps using motion sensors or something requiring some kind of control movement within a certain time be used to sound a warning and/or stop the train?? Aircraft have all kinds of warning bells & whistles and as with modern cars, once a computer is used for one thing, it easy to add other features. Corporations will usually complain about almost any cost, but a recent Trains had an article about BNSF installing video cameras to record grade crossing incidents and I always have to wonder where railroads find the money to pay for mergers i.e. what's U.P.'s annual interest expense on bank loans??

I also wonder how the potential destructive energy of a loaded double stack at 70 mph compares to a 767 hitting the WTC towers???

[gabe]

Ed,

I completely agree with your conclusion that the vast majority of trains are not run by droopy-eyed, tired engineers, and I agree with your conclusion regarding the relative safety of trains compared to other modes of transportation (although I would be willing to bet barge and other forms of water transportation would give you a good run for your money)

However, your pointing to doctors is part of the reason I am being so dogged in pursuing this one. I have seen SO many cases with doctors doing really unbelievably stupid things because of sleep deprivation. My thought was, if train engineers make the same degree of mistakes as doctors, we are in trouble.

As far as statistics, I agree that fatigue-type wrecks probably don't happen as much as one might think. However, I did Google “train wrecks and fatigue.” There were MANY federal and NTSB listings (I stopped reading when I got past the 35th one) regarding wrecks that were at least partially attributed to fatigue. That is why I was under my impression.

Like I said though, I don't disagree with your or Mark's conclusion that maybe the status quo might be the best way of handling the problem. It is just that I think it is a problem that we should endeavor to continue to investigate. I don’t want to see you or anyone else get hurt.

Gabe

[daveklepper]

Mark, I don't think the railroads need go out of business if the regulations are sensible and get input from both railroad management and railroad labor and if competitive forms of transportation are given the same scrutiny and regulation. Trucking in particular, but I'll bet even barge lines and coastal and itnernaitonal shipping and air freight could use safety improvements. Rembember what derailed the Sunset Limited near Mobile? So possibly we can expect regulation to come and both management and labor should not fight it but work hard to make sure it is both fair and sensible.

[zardoz]

Ed,

I never asked anyone if they go to work tired, because in my 20 years experience working the pool and extraboard on the CNW, 99% of the crews WERE tired, myself included. And I'm not trying to get personal, but since you put forth some of your lifestyle choices in a previous post, I am going to use them as an example.

You mention that if "you" (a generic term for anybody) had to take a 50% (extreme) cut in pay, your kids would be gang-banging slobs that cannot afford anything decent, and the parents are driving jalopys that can barely run (exaggeration). But what "you" may not realize, is that many people DO get by on whatever 50% of your salary is. And equally, there are people making twice as much as you who would claim that they cannot get by on a 50% pay cut (but "you" are doing it). It is all a matter of priorities.

Most everybody adjusts their lifestyle in response to a change in income. If "you" got a $10K/year raise, chances are that "you" would either get a fancier car, bigger house, whatever, and chances are you would not be saving or investing that additional $10K. I know many people making far more than I do that are living from paycheck to paycheck, live in a fancy house (with hardly any furniture or window treatments because they cannot afford them), drive a fancy (leased) car, and have no money in the bank.

My wife would rather have me home regularly, even if it means we cannot afford a fancy vacation. We value our time together more.

The fact that my kids cannot wear the latest fashions is something they have learned to life with (and quite well, thank you). They prefer to think for themselves, and not be dictated to by the fashion police as to what they 'should' wear. We give the a decent allowance, and have told them if they want to use part of their allowance to buy fancy clothes, we will match their portion of the cost. As of yet, they have not felt the need to spend twice as much for clothing just so they can have a fancy label or advertise for a particular clothing company at their expense.

And we take care of our vehicles, and expect them to last 10 years (and they do). I was quite proud that my old '93 Explorer was still in good operating condition, , but at 200K miles, it was time to move on. So I bought a 2003 at year-end. I plan on getting a 2013 at year-end next.

Perhaps "you" have not spent many years on the board. Once you're on a set schedule for a while, it's easy to forget the life of the board. The first few years did not bother me to work on call; I rather liked it (for many of the reasons you mentioned). But it (the on-call lifestyle) gets old as we get old.

My objection is to the mind-set that continues to perpetuate the horrible living conditions of workers forced to work on-call. And since I did it for 20 years, I feel I am rather qualified to comment. I was fired from the CNW for "insubordination", meaning I refused calls to work. I could not take it any longer. I had requested a leave of absence to work out family issues, and was refused. So I took the time anyway. And got fired for it. I felt my life was more important than what my job had become, even though being an engineer was my childhood fantasy job. And I loved railroading. I was a damn good engineer (in 15 years in the pool, I got only 1 knuckle and 0 drawbars, never had an operational rule violation), but the greed of those unwilling to change, or to even consider that it is possible to change, caused me to have to give up my dream in order to have a life beyond the job.

As I mentioned in another thread on roughly the same subject, back in the 80's the CNW and the local unions tried to agree on some sort of schedule for the on-call crewmen. Those that still had a life beyond the railroad (wife, kids, hobbies), wanted the change; those that had already lost their beyond-the-railroad life wanted no such changes. They wanted to work 11:59 every call, so they could come back again in 8 hours; to them, the idea of taking a day off was abhorent, because their life expenses were so high (alimony, child support). I'm sure their ex-wives appreciated all the hours they spent working.

I made the decision to give up that life, and have not regretted it since. I do miss being on the trains, I just do not miss the lifestyle. I was making (then) $70K/year, was never home to spend it, was nearly divorced because of it, never saw my kids, and felt like crap. Fast-forward 12 years: I am now making only $30K/year, own a new vehicle, only owe $35K on my house, work 8 hours per day and am home every night, and am happily married, and I feel 10 years younger than I felt 10 years ago. I would have none of that now if I had stayed on the railroad.

[gabe]

Dave,

I am tempted to say something provacative to you, just so you respond and get your third star.

Mark,

I completely agree with your conclusion. I still think naps are a good partial solution though. I know naps are often preceived as being for little kids. But, I think anyone who has had to work long hours in a sleep-deprived environment know they are priceless. If a train has to wait an hour or two in a siding, why not allow one of the two crew members doze off for 45 minutes? Do they allow crew members to do that?

Like I said, I agree with your and Ed's ultimate conclusion. I just think that acknowledging the problem may usher ideas--like naps--that might not be able to solve the problem, but be able to mitigate it a bit.

Gabe

[daveklepper]

Mark, I agree with your siesta comment. As to passing costs on to the consumer, first, I think that managements will be even more likely to use the kind of thinking that has led to the just effected CN-CP-NS agreement and compensate with added efficiencies, and there are plenty of places where this kind of thinking can be applied. For example, while I don't want to see traffic reduced on the Grand Junction CO line, it is clear from what you have said that BNSF and UP could reduce costs now by running a joint freight between them, rather than separate trains for the local busines. The same kind of thinking might apply on some of California's lines shared by these two giants. This isn't new of course, the CV and B&M did it years ago, like the Winter issue of CLASSIC TRAINS ponts out. Also, most new regulations of this type are phased in gradually. The fuel tax reductions will also help. But you and I are not going to influence the regulations arrival, but maybe we can do all we can to make the sensible, fair, and least destructive of the thin profits that make freight railroading continue as free enterprise.

[rrnut282]

Thanks Zardoz for saying what I tried to say in previous posts on this topic.[bow]

[edblysard]

Big Z,

First, I know you have heard this on the railroad....

"You do what you gotta do"...

That said, I really am sorry you couldn't get it to work out.

I agree, it does bite when the management can not, or will not take a hard look at the value of a employee, and make an intelligent decision...

What they should have done is decide that having you as an valued employee was worth the cost of letting you take a few weeks off.

I know, I was an employer for a long time, and those employees of mine who were dedicated, and put forth their best every day, well, when they came to me and said they needed down time, sure, it was worth it to me.

I would rather lose them for a month, and have them come back squared away and ready to do their job, than keep them there, with their mind not on what they were doing, but instead, out in the clouds worring about whatever problem they had.

Some places will do that, some will not.

As for the money making the difference between my kids being gang banging slobs, and driving a old car...not really.

Before I went railroading, and after I gave up the retail auto parts biz...I worked for my states Attorney General's office...for the whopping salary of 33K...

Less than half of what the car parts paid....

Drove a 78 Olds Cutlass, wife was stuck with either the 77 Pontiac bomb, or the 78 Dodge D300 extended van, which had 300,000 miles on it.
Thing drank a quart of oil every other day.

Had only two kids then...they did dress out of Kmart, and Target, which was where my wife worked her second job, her first one was also with the agency I worked for.

I was the one who stayed home at night taking care of the kids, cooking and doing the laundry, because the wife went from the second job to night school, to earn her associates degree.

Got totally burned out on the Attorney Generals Office job, I investigated and located missing "absent parents" for the child support division, and I located the hidden assets of these people too.
Also did AFDC (welfare) fraud recovery.

So, after a fun filled day of dealing with what I can only call scum, I would go home and play like a person who had a "normal" job, except that after 8 years of wading through scum, talking to scum, tracking and prosecuting scum...everybody starts to look like scum.

You get to the point you can not have a decent conversation with anyone, your wife included, without the influence of the job jading you view of the person your talking to...everyone and everything becomes suspect.

Wife still works there, she thrives on her part of the process...but I couldn't hack it.

Best darn thing I ever did was turn in my gun and badge.


So, I have been there, where looking for couch change so the kids have lunch money, or you can buy a gallon of gas so the wife can get to work is the normal.

No, I didnt ride the board too long when I got on...I was one of the lucky ones who hired in just as a bunch of old head retired, so my seniority jumped pretty quick.

But, because of the hours I have to have off, I have worked the switching lead for about 6 years solid.
Thats six years of pounding rock and pulling pins...not riding out to work a industry or take a transfer run to another yard.

So, I too have gone home bone tired, covered with some of the most gross gunk in the world, with the blisters on my hands from tying handbrakes all day long and my feet killing me...

I do see some of the guys who, like was previously pointed out, have no life outside of the railroad...and thats partially their fault.

I learned the first year out here, the job can run you, or you can run the job...I chose the latter.

And I agree, not having a life outside of this place is horrible, living for the work, because you couldnt find a way to make your personal life and the job mesh is one of the reasons so many of the guys are divorced.

But, and maybe I am really lucky, my wife and I, along with our (then) two daughters, discussed the merits and the down side to me doing this.

They may not like the times I have to work, and I am not off on the weekends like them, so we dont get to do a lot of the family things "normal" familys do...but we adjust.

For us, the fact that, after driving old, beat up used beaters all her adult life, my wife can now afford a new car every few years, that helps make it worth the hassle.

After hand me downs, my daughters can, within reason, wear some of the nice clothes they like.

But even when we were poor, my kids wore clean, appropriate clothes, with their butt cracks covered!

Thats a matter of how you were raised, and how you raise your kids, not just a matter of money.
I know a lot of "poor" people, whos kids are the kind of children any parent would be proud of.

We dont owe anybody because we do scrimp on some things, and we worked hard to pay off the house, and the cars, and the student loans and the credit cards.

We do get to buy the nice things now, because we went without for a long time.

I drove the same old Jeep for years, its now 10 years old, has 100,000+ miles on it, and I repair it whenever it needs fixing, because I know that it is a good car.
I plan on one of my kids driving it.

If they want a new car, then they need to get a job.

I think what it boils down to is what you want, and what you are willing to do to get it....

All of that said, if anyone could come up with a way to schedule rest for railroaders, without driving the carriers out of business, or increasing the cost of using railroad to the point shippers find any other form of transportation, then I am all for it.

But the economics aren't there...

You can not attract the kind of people you have to have at the railroad on wages any less than what they currently pay...and sometimes, even that isnt enough.

We just finished a switchmans class.

Out of the 18 hires, we are down to 4.

The rest quit, or were turned.

One of the ones who didnt make it, wanted to mark off for a few days, because his dog died, and he needed to bury it properly.(his words)

Others are astounded when they find out we work holidays, they dont get their birthday off.
One even expected to have every other week end off.

No fooling, he really though he could mark off every other weekend.

All of that after we told them, over and over, just how it works.

So the pool of satisfactory "new hires" aint all that great.

The railroads have to offer a wage that attracts a certain type of person, most of us are "A" type personality people, we like doing the job till its done, and done right.

So, as far as I can see, and in my opinion, the only way we can get to the point that we can work on a "schedule" with set work hours for employees, and set start times and schedules for trains, is to either nationalize the entire railroad structure, or make railroads a part of the military.

Either way, it becomes a "public" property and a public utility, running on tax payers money, with out the profit in the equation.

If its the taxpayers wallet your dipping into, and you dont have to earn a return, then you can run it any way you chose.

But, as long as you have to keep the people who invested in your railroad reasonably happy, then what we have right now is pretty much as good as it will get.

Now, I dont fault anyone for walking away from this life....you gotta do what you gotta do...

Like I said before, life is too short to work hard to make someone else happy or wealthy.

It didnt work out for you, and you followed what you felt was the correct course..good for you.

It was a choice you made, you placed the value of your marriage and the love of your kids above and beyond the job...which is what you should have done.

Staying on at the CNW would have been greedy on your part.

You miss it, that comes through loud and clear in your posting.

And I am sorry it worked out that way for you, truly, I am.

I hope that, if in ten years my life changes enough, or my wifes life changes enough that walking away is what I have to do, I can work up the guts to do the same thing as you did.

But right now, it is a choice, not just my choice, but my family's choice for me to railroad.

Like I said, no one lied to me, it was all explained up front, the cruddy hours, zero life at home, hard, dirty work in the "bad" part of town, the danger and the risk.

It won't change much, anytime soon.

So, I adjust to it...after all, it is a choice, just like joining the military, being a cop, a firefighter, or a doctor on call.

Ed

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

So, as far as I can see, and in my opinion, the only way we can get to the point that we can work on a "schedule" with set work hours for employees, and set start times and schedules for trains, is to either nationalize the entire railroad structure, or make railroads a part of the military.

So long as we have a market driven economy we will have market driven transportation. The customer wants what the customer wants and they want it when and where they want it. When you can schedule the customer, his wants and his time constraints then you can begin the rudiments of scheduling a transportation network and all the variables that affect that network. Of course that is begining to sound like the Soviet form of socialism, the socialism that could not keep pace with the vitality of the Free Worlds market driven economies and imploded of its own inefficiencies.

[arbfbe]

But on the Soviet Railways the engineers worked 44 hours per week just like everyone else in the economy. They also got a call sheet once a month with the entire next month's schedule for him at that time. He could ask for the days he wanted off in the next month in advance so it could be scheduled into the next month's call sheet.

Upon reporting for duty he had his blood pressure taken and if it was found to be elevated he was allowed to go home since their managers took that as a sign of fatigue.

While the system in the Soviet Union may have imploded of it's own ineffeciencies they had a few things that were far advanced to what capitalist managers accept as good management techniques. Note that the WC was mostly a 7 and 3 railroad for train crews but CN has been working hard to change that to a 6 and 1 operation. Let's see, crews that were getting 9 days a month off duty will now be getting 4 days off. Some of those days may be eatten up by trips from the previous day that work into the day off. This is progress?

[Anonymous]

MWH remarked about the dead man's pedals and the Alertors. Both were royal pains in the fundament.

But you could jimmy a dead man pedal, with a brake shoe, or by wedging a brake shoe key in above the pedal, or by using a flag stick to hold it down.

Alertors were a little harder . . .

But I wonder if someone has done a study about fatigue-caused situations that were prevented by those devices, against those that happened in spite of them being in service and activated. Of course, one can never find out about the former . . .

Old Timer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe


While the system in the Soviet Union may have imploded of it's own ineffeciencies they had a few things that were far advanced to what capitalist managers accept as good management techniques. Note that the WC was mostly a 7 and 3 railroad for train crews but CN has been working hard to change that to a 6 and 1 operation. Let's see, crews that were getting 9 days a month off duty will now be getting 4 days off. Some of those days may be eatten up by trips from the previous day that work into the day off. This is progress?

You can afford to do things such as the Soviets did, when you get to spend from the public money trough and don't have to answer to stockholders that have invested in your venture. The building of the Trans-Sieberian Railway bankrupt the Csars and Russia that built it, and such techniques would also bankrupt the 'for profit' railroad model.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Old Timer

MWH remarked about the dead man's pedals and the Alertors. Both were royal pains in the fundament.

But you could jimmy a dead man pedal, with a brake shoe, or by wedging a brake shoe key in above the pedal, or by using a flag stick to hold it down.

Alertors were a little harder . . .

But I wonder if someone has done a study about fatigue-caused situations that were prevented by those devices, against those that happened in spite of them being in service and activated. Of course, one can never find out about the former . . .

Old Timer

The CNW suburban units had deadman pedals. The only thing they were good for was a good place to store the wrench (held the pedal down real nicely). And at least we always knew where the wrench was.

I had mixed feelings about the alerters. They were great if the engineer had a health issue (pass out, heart attack, stroke), or if he got hit by a rock or shot. But for "alertness" I felt they were a mixed blessing. The alerter would stop the train if the engineer fell asleep. But what I noticed was that when I had an alerter, and I was REAL tired, and I knew there were no crossings for a few miles, and I could see green signals, I would use the alerter sort of like a snooze button on your alarm clock. I knew I could nod off for 20-30 seconds, and the alerter would wake me. I realize of course that this was dangerous, but not as dangerous as actually nodding off for a longer period with no alerter to wake me. For me, there are few worse feelings you can get as an engineer than waking up at 40 mph, not knowing how long you have nodded off, not sure how many crossings you went over without whistling and not knowing if you hit anything.

And not to anger any conductors who might read this, but most of the time they were already asleep as soon as we left the yard. However, there were some 'fun' ways to help the conductor stay awake. One of my favorites was to wait until we were on a safe stretch of track; I would hold the independet brake handle in the "bail off" position for about a minute so it could get a good supply of air. Then I would pick up the wrench or some other object that was suitably loud when dropped. Then I would just barely open the back door. When the time was right, I would, all at the same time, toss the wrench into the air, release the independent, and run out the back door yelling something like "we're gonna hit", or "S**T". Usually this was sufficient to ensure the wakefullness of the conductor, at least until his adrenaline wore off.

[ValleyX]

Deadman pedals, which I never had to deal with on a regular basis, were of limited value and when we merged with a railroad that had them and started having to deal with them, they were found by one and all to be a major pain and mostly useless and treated as reported in previous posts.

However, I think alerters are a great thing, there used to be a good way to circumvent them and most knew how to do it but it became a "practice of the past" with stronger FRA regulations. That, plus the fact that when first installed, they were frequently faulty and we learned and were told how to do it out of necessity but this is going back twenty-\ to twenty-five years.

More than one engineer has been thankful that he had an alerter and there is no way to have statistics on what accidents have been prevented because of a alerter.

As for the railroad lifestyle, Z, I admire that you were able to walk away from it but don't understand why you allowed them to fire you, because if you felt that strongly about it, you should have resigned, you surely knew if you really wanted out or not.

All the posts from the outsiders are typical of posts that outsiders would write, it seems to me. They've mostly not lived the lifestyle and they know what they've read in articles and on these and other forums and make the assumption that our lives are just awful, as a result, but it isn't necessarily so. I've lived this life for many years and its very true that there are things I've missed but there are plenty of things that I was able to do, too, and there were plenty of things I refused to miss and planned accordingly.

Same thing with the health issues. Everyone writes that you're shortening your life, essentially, by working on the road in freight service and there's evidence to back that up, I'm aware of that. The missed sleep, the irregular meals, lack of proper exercise, not good, but everyday I read the obituary column in our newspaper and I see plenty of misfortunate people who never worked for a railroad who have died at a much too young age. Life is a risk, regardless.

I am what I am, I am what I wanted to be, and I've been able to do that. Sure, I sometimes regret some of the choices I have made but is there anyone in this forum who can say otherwise?

[ValleyX]

Alerters, or crew call devices, started appearing on the N&W in 1972, possibly 1971, after a couple of bad accidents in the coalfields. If I'm not mistaken, PRR may have had some sort of a crew call device on some of their last power purchased, requiring the engineer to tap a panel on the control stand, but this is something I've been told, not something I know.