What do think about M.W. Hemphill's column in Dec. TRAINS RE:the plight of T&E service?

[gabe]

(1) I Never questioned nor disrespected your life style choices, nor would I.

(2) I didn't need to question Limitedclear as to whether he go tired, as an earlier post in this thread unequivocally said that he did.

(3) Humans need sleep, and as long as there are freight trains carrying chemicals and other hazardous materials through neighborhoods, nothing short of statistical evidence will convince me that they don't.

Gabe

[edblysard]

You know,
Not a single person asked if I go to work tired..

No one asked how much I sleep...or don't sleep.

Didnt see anyone ask if LC, Nat, Wabash, Randy or the rest of us if anyone of us go to work tired...

You assumed we did, and do...but you never asked.

You assumed that your example of the "correct" lifestyle choice was idea for us, or a lifestyle we would chose if offered the chance.

You gathered your information from medical studies, magazine stories, TV and news coverage and newspaper reports, but I cant find one instance where you guys asked us, the railroaders, if this is how it is with us.

Who'ed a thunk it....all thoses brains working this hard, and not a one of you seemed to realized you have access to the guys who live this way, and not a one of you bothered to ask the basic questions you were taught to ask in 8th grade English/Journalism...Who, What, When, Where and Why....

And, all the time you guys were lamenting over us poor, tired, overworked, sleep deprived railroaders, none of you bothered to ask us if that is how we really live.

Did anyone bother to look at the times us tired guys post here?


Sure, my wife would enjoy me being home on the weekends, but there is a trade off to all of this...money is part of it, but personal choice is another part of it to.

I dont have to wear a suit and tie to work anymore, but now, when I do buy a suit, (and I do like nice clothes) it isnt from JC Pennys...I have mine hand made at a tailor's shop.

My wife and kids dont have to shop Wal-Mart, Kmart or Target, they shop at Dillards, Foleys, Lord and Taylor...

We dont owe anyone other than Chrysler, pretty much debt free.

My 11 year old went to the UK for two weeks last summer, and now that she is 12, she is headed off to Australia and New Zeland for three weeks this summer.

When I go out shopping for tools, lawnmowers, stuff, I dont have to fight weekend crowds.

We dont wait in line at restrauants, or movies...and yes, we have time to do all of those things.

Most railroaders do also, because we have structured our lives around the way the system works.

Guys on the extra board know if they are going to be called out right away when they get off, they go home, eat, and go to bed.

Those that dont, well, they dont make it too long in jobs like this.

Guys with regular shifts, like me, who have 12 to 16 hours between start times, we live almost normal lives, just a few hours off from everybody else.

If we didnt like what we do, and didnt find a hugh amount of satisfaction in our work, we wouldn't do it.

How many of you guys work at a job you hate, or one that is running you ragged?

I bet not many of you...

And those of you who are in that position, shame on you...life is way to short to run yourself to death making someone else happy or wealthy.

Man, if you are going to work hard, then work hard for yourself and your family.

[zardoz]

WHAT IS SLEEP?
Sleep is a biological state that is caused by the discharge of specific neurons in certain parts of the brain. It involves an alternate cycle of non-rapid eye movement (NREM) and rapid eye movement (REM). The cycle consists of 80 minutes NREM followed by 10 minutes of REM. This 90 minute cycle is repeated 3 to 6 times during the night.

Sleep occupies one third of our existence.
It is necessary for our physical and mental health.
Sleep affects almost every physiological and psychological process. The body has normal low cycles called circadian rhythm lows. The most dramatic low time is between 2 A.M. and 6 A.M. The second rhythm low is not as dramatic in presentation and occurs between 2 P.M. and 6 P.M. These lows are represented by increased sleepiness.

When we do not get enough sleep, our body will physically try hard to make us sleep and psychologically we crave it. As a veteran shift worker, the primary focus of our night shift conversations was comparing how many hours of sleep we had that day.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following article is from: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/09/20/sleep.deprivation/

LONDON (CNN) -- Night owls take note: new research offers yet another reason to get more sleep. In a study published this week in the British journal Occupational and Environmental Medicine, researchers in Australia and New Zealand report that sleep deprivation can have some of the same hazardous effects as being drunk.

Getting less than 6 hours a night can affect coordination, reaction time and judgment, they said, posing "a very serious risk."

Drivers are especially vulnerable, the researchers warned. They found that people who drive after being awake for 17 to 19 hours performed worse than those with a blood alcohol level of .05 percent. That's the legal limit for drunk driving in most western European countries, though most U.S. states set their blood alcohol limits at .1 percent and a few at .08 percent.

The study said 16 to 60 percent of road accidents involve sleep deprivation. The researchers said countries with drunk driving laws should consider similar restrictions against sleep-deprived driving.

The British Medical Association warned that there are other problems associated with sleep deprivation beyond impaired motor skills. People who get too little sleep may have higher levels of stress, anxiety and depression, and may take unnecessary risks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The railroads (and some railroaders) can justify working tired all they want (railroad: it cost's to much to schedule trains; railroaders: I need the money, so when my wife divorces me because I'm never home, she gets a bigger settlement), but if we as a society do not want people driving a car while suffering the above mentioned effects, I sure as hell do not want pilots or engineers or doctors involved in anything that could cause my early demise. Perhaps those that make these risky decisions should be the ones to be affected by them. Put the rail executives in houses next to the tracks; use the tired pilots on corporate flights; the tired doctors can work on their own family members.

Sure, it will cost more to give people a real life. But how much is your life worth?

For how many dollars will you give up your health, your safety, your life?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/

http://www.sleepnet.com/depriv.htm

[gabe]

Ed,

Just to be clear, "macho" was not my chosen term, and as I stated in my post, I nothing but respect the professionalism of railroaders and have never questioned their choices.

My only contention is--and I realize you never used the term “tough”--is that you can't deal with sleep deprivation by being tough and that seems to be many people's responses to the problem--i.e. some can hack it, some cannot.

I am not faulting railroaders for being "tough;" it is a "tough" job, not for the weak. I am, however, saying that studies more than demonstrate that the toughest people in the world make decisions they shouldn't and otherwise wouldn't because of sleep deprivation.

I specifically stated that I agree with Mark’s conclusion that railroads may be choosing the best alternative available and I specifically stated that I respect railroaders--including you (which was implied by my statement).

However, I don't think it is irrational that, as a concerned citizen, to be alarmed that the "answer" to problems of sleep deprivation were those contained in my quoted statements. Chosen life style, etc. is a perfect response for those who were questioning your chosen life style; I was just do not think chosen life style, etc. is a good response to the problem of sleep deprivation.

Gabe

[MP173]

Alan:

Well said. The industry does not plan and execute very well. Service deteriorates and customers look for alternatives. The railroad's mantra has always been "where else are you going to go?" Captive.

It is just not a real healthy industry.

ed

[edblysard]

LC,

Most likely they will have to re-train some of us to be a little more warm and fuzzy...
and of course, we will have to learn to be more in touch with the inner self, and let lose the repressed child trapped inside.

That will help a lot with life at home, and make us more in tune with the times, a lot more available and accessable to our kids, who will obviously enjoy our new, extended presence at home.

And being as we are now a intergral part of our new nuclear family, our wives and our 2.5 kids (and one dog) will understand completly that we now earn only half of what we used to earn.

They will enjoy the fact we are home for vacation, even though we can't afford to go anywhere.

I know my wife is going to love driving the same Durango for the next 10 years!

I have been away so much though, I have a lot of questions for the stay at home Dads...

Why do you let kids wear tennis shorts so long they almost touch their ankles, and so baggy they have to hold them on with one hand?

What is the deal with their boxer shorts hanging out the top, showing off their butt crack?

And the sideways hat?

(trying to be warm and fuzzy )Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Well, Darn it., LC, Nate, Wabash, Randy, Kenno and Mark,

I guess they should take all us hard headed, old, wore out, droopy eyed, diabetic, tought, we can do it macho minded fools out to the back forty, and shoot us old horses for the fools we are.

Then they can run all the railroads on a schedule, give everybody holidays off, maybe birthdays and the Fourth of July.
They can all go to work at 8am, take lunch at 12:00 to 1:00, and all go home at 5:00pm.

That way, they have time to fini***heir Starbucks coffee and the morning paper, still have time to get the trains out on schedule, and be home in time for the evening news...

Jeeze, we've been dumb so long, running trains 24/7, when all we had to do was schedule it like, oh, UPS or FedEx...
Us Silly old heads...


[:D]Ed[:p]

Ed, I dunno if I'd still know how to work out here. Would we get re-training??

LC

[edblysard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

EB

You forgot that there has to be 15 minute breaks each morning and afternoon to get a Starbucks refill! [V][V]

Jay

Durn it, I also forgot the carrier sponsered day care at the home terminal,,,except there is no home or away terminal, because we are on a schedule, and will be home every day by 5:00!

[:D]Ed

[arbfbe]

RE: BaltACD

If only you could see it from the other side. Railroads are failing miserably in delivering the goods to the customers in any sort of a timely fashion. I had an intermodal yesterday that was only 400 miles from the Pacific Coast and it was 27 hours late already. That is only the tip of the iceberg when you start looking at individual carloads that are hundreds of hours late, that is like a week or more.

What your are missing is that the railroads are expecting more and more from their operating department employees. Not to make the trains and cargos make scheduled delivery but to trim the bottom line. it is not just a railroad phenomon but common to almost all sufrace transportation modes. Instead of getting better hours in service are increasing and hours at rest, and rest is far more than just sleep, are being reduced. Somewhere there is going to be a brick wall for the industry to run into. It will be announced as an unexpected and unpredictable event by railroad managers. The public will be appalled at what has been going on. Small changes or even massive restructuring may result. It has been too long coming.

Mark is right, costs to the industry will be going up. They should have been going up for some time now. I still move 200+ loaded containers for almost 300 miles at about $1 per mile in direct labor and not over $2 per mile with all benefits. That works out to pennies per container per mile. Yet management screams about excessive labor costs. They tell us about how much a trucker will work for then fail to note the trucker is moving two containers max for a longer distance. They also fail to tell us that the trucker has not effectively had a raise in about 20 years and turnover in that industry is so abysmal that it exceeds 100% annually in some terminals. High labor costs have been such an excuse by rail managers for so long it is inbred into their mind set. It is the great bugaboo for any failing in the industry. They have reduced employees so many times that it no longer works yet when they see it failing they only see an opportunity to reduce more jobs in the hopes it will work once again like it did in the 1980s.

Look at any of the availability requirements on a class one these days. The railroad wants you on duty or preparing for duty 24/7/365. Their attitude is that you get 8 hrs at home with the family every third day and that should be enough. Oh, but first get your sleep so we can use you all night at a 75 minute notice. The first improvement should be an 8 hour calling time. At least then you would know when to go to bed and there would not be any surprises in the middle of the night. The railroads will counter that is too hard to do account all the vagauries of the industry. Get real, if you can't predict where the train will be within eight hours your are not managing the process you are only reacting to the situation, grab onto the tail and hang on tight. The unions have done a poor job in presenting their case to the public but an eight hour call would be an easy sell to the man on the street. Seventy five to ninety minutes is all the railroad needs now to change it all so let's make them think about what they are doing instead. Manage the beast instead of trying to just hang onto the tail. Like I noted earlier, the goods are not getting to the customers now, maybe managing the system for the employees will result in better service to the customers as well. I am still getting called and then waiting in the terminal for 2 - 7 hours to leave the terminal now so their 75 - 90 minute call windows are not working that well either.

Alan

[jeaton]

EB

You forgot that there has to be 15 minute breaks each morning and afternoon to get a Starbucks refill! [V][V]

Jay

[edblysard]

Well, Darn it., LC, Nate, Wabash, Randy, Kenno and Mark,

I guess they should take all us hard headed, old, wore out, droopy eyed, diabetic, tought, we can do it macho minded fools out to the back forty, and shoot us old horses for the fools we are.

Then they can run all the railroads on a schedule, give everybody holidays off, maybe birthdays and the Fourth of July.
They can all go to work at 8am, take lunch at 12:00 to 1:00, and all go home at 5:00pm.

That way, they have time to fini***heir Starbucks coffee and the morning paper, still have time to get the trains out on schedule, and be home in time for the evening news...

Jeeze, we've been dumb so long, running trains 24/7, when all we had to do was schedule it like, oh, UPS or FedEx...
Us Silly old heads...


[:D]Ed[:p]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Mark, I apologize. Usually, I've remembered to spell correctly. But let me mention that Rabbi Marc Angel is (still) my New York City Rabbi who I still consult on occasion and he was the President of the Rabinical Council of America, the largest group of Orthodox Rabbis in America. So, there is a reason for may mistake. Still I do apologize!

OY, VEY...

LC

[daveklepper]

Mark, I apologize. Usually, I've remembered to spell correctly. But let me mention that Rabbi Marc Angel is (still) my New York City Rabbi who I still consult on occasion and he was the President of the Rabinical Council of America, the largest group of Orthodox Rabbis in America. So, there is a reason for may mistake. Still I do apologize!

[Anonymous]

My complements to Mark on his November 2004 Trains column. It is well written, knowlegable and worthy of discussion. I myself cannot go into this topic but can only sit up and pay attention with no small amount of admiration and respect to those of you that are in the operating side of the railroad enterprise. I have built my share of railroads as a member of the Southern Company's power plant construction department, but that does not qualify me to participate as such on any side of the discussion . I just hope that fairness is maintained and that rancor be kept to a minimum

[BaltACD]

Schedule...schedule...schedule

All the working problems can be eliminated by a schedule....In utopia it can.

In the real world the Business Cycle does not adhere to any schedule. Without the business cycle adhereing to a schedule, the operations of all those individuals, companies and industries also operate on their individaul sets of priorities and resources and do so in a toally unscheduled manner. With the causes of business fluction being unscheduled how can the transportation industry (rail, water, air, highway, pipeline) operate in a totally scheduled way.....THEY CAN'T. The products shipped, the times of shipment are all dependent on factors that are beyond the control of ANY transportation company. The market drives the requirement to transport goods and the market has no schedule.

You are the market, I am the market you next door neighbor is the market....are your personal purchases 'scheduled', have you published your scheduled so that the business cycle can be aware of your needs and have all the proper resources in motion at the proper time to fulfill your personal need.....NOT HARDLY!

Transportation companies either deliver their service in a manner and timeliness that is acceptable to their customers or they are replaced, for those reasons transportation companies have to jump through the customers hoops or the competition gets the business.

[route_rock]

Your all right yet all wrong as well.I agree its a lifestyle as is trucking. But sorry I think those that perpetuate a get used to it or else attitude is going to be like the dinosaurs of the trucking world. !4 years as a driver folks and I tried to be one of them asphalt superheros.NO MORE! I have seen what it will do to you.LC and all you guys with droopy eyelids do you drink a lot of coffee, soda to stay awake? Say hello to insulin in a needle my friends.How many old truckers do youknow that are diabetics?Its all about lifestyle. Hate to toss that scary curve ball but you gotta know its coming soon to a health problem in you. Do you eat regular? and do you take rest room breaks regular?Not in that lifestyle I know cause I never did.Read up on health issues of eating then just either sitting or going to sleep soon after eating and getting little to no exercise.Causes a LOT of serious digestional problems. Do I have your peoples attention now?Good! 7&3 sounds like a great deal us OTR drivers got a day off for a week out.Bad news is most of the time you were so tired you slept for two days straight.But if you guys run 12 hours on 8 off back and forth shouldnt be as big of a problem.Dont worry about your 8 off anymore either.If the feds want to get involved it will be 10. Ask any trucker and any trucking company.They are now paying their people for any docktime over an hour. I know a lot of people dont know that in certain types of trucking(reefer and warehouse stuff) you can sit for up to 10 hours waiting to load and unload.Trucking companies are adjusting and some of them are right at a 98% operating ratio.They may jump to 99% or even over the 1.00 mark and then no profits only losses but hey thats buissness something else will have to be cut then.You want revolving door hiring go down to a OTR comapnay and see all the newbies coming onboard.I dont mean the guys with time in the industry but all the brand new ones.Give em less than 4 months.Tractors that sit dont make money.Go see the hiring bonuses the home time and all the other stuff trucking is giving.Most are lies but some places really do what they say.Railroads need to do something and sorry but you dinosaurs are going to be extinct someday.The I am tough can drive railroad whatever all night all day is OVER! And before any says I couldnt hack it think of this ,I drove 23 hours a day week in week out for 2 years slept all weekend when I was home. ran ONE logbook (obviously very very flase) and I did it cause that was the mindset.You want to be a driver you dont sleep.You are doing it for the money.Well health concerns scare me. I am a firefighter EMT on the side and I dont want to be dead at 40!So I CHANGED! Life is more important to you and your loved ones than it is for money. Stay safe wake up and try to change the system.Youd be suprised look at railroad history at how it used to be!Do those people that did change the industry proud.They didnt have it as good as we do.[soapbox]

[oltmannd]

I think that RRs would like nothing better than to have a situation where steady, predictable traffic volumes and precision operationg would allow steady, predictable crew schedules. That would make life SO much easier! No more scrambling to find crews for extra trains or waiting on crew's rest to try to run the scheduled trains. Why, you'd hardly need a crew dispatching office!

But, unless you're operating the Disney World RR, that's not happening any time soon. I think the RRs may sneak up on this over the long haul, though. As RRs reach their capacity, they may use rates to keep the steady, base load traffic and drive off some of the shipper's "overflow" business. There should also be some improvement over time in the equipment and physical plant reliability as increasing profits allow investment in updated technology (provided another round of mergers don't suck the cash out of the business again)

[Anonymous]

On the operating side, railroading is not a job it is a LIFE STYLE.

Not everyone is up to living the railroad life style.

Those in the rail industry hear all the time about nepotisim, and all those allegations are in the negative context. The reality is that nepotism pre-conditions the younger generation to the committments that taking operating positions is all about and the sons and daughters of railroader, if they desire working for the railroads, will stay around and become life long rail empoyees themselves. There is currently a tremendous turn over among newly hired train service employees, who get hired, complete the training, begin protecting their turn and come to the realization that they are not cut out for the life style and its committments. So the hiring merry-go-round commences all over again to fill vacant Train Service positions.

[arbfbe]

When I hired out for the railroad in 1969 a road trip lasted about 4 hours and time at home was generally in the 24 to 30 hour range. We had a monthly mileage agreement that forced you to take time off when you hit that mark. The carriers said we were all a bunch of featherbedders and collected 8 hrs or more pay for less than 8 hrs work.

Fast foreward 35 years to today. I commonly work 70 hrs per week and have for years now. When things get really busy I get the opportunity to work 90 hrs for several weeks in a row. Management's atitude is that since I get payed it is a fair deal. If I don't want to work the extra hours that is too bad, I am needed. Remember, railroads are exempted from the Fair Labor Standards Act which mandates overtime after 40 hrs work in a week. My average trips are over 10 hrs now so is the railroad getting a deal here or what? We have good benefits on the railroads and that makes us high fixed cost employees. Most other industries, think steel, manufacturing and now the airlines are finding ways to reduce their level of benefits and the railroads are behind the curve there. They feel justified in squeezing the most hours out of every employee they can. The pendulum of featherbedding vs indentured servitude has swung too far in the carriers favor.

The industry has it's head in the sand concerning sleep deprivation. Ask your doctor about an Awakeness Maintenance test. Try it yourself. The employees on trains are not just zoning out while at the controls they are asleep! Their eyes are open, their chins are not on their chests but their brainwaves are showing sleep. Railroad management thinks you can fight it but in reality it will overcome you. Managers have no idea about how autonomous the job becomes after weeks of trip after trip with only 8 or 10 hours off between on BOTH ends of the road.

Railroads, the only INDUSTRY that required and act of Congress, the Federal Hours of Service Act to remind them that their empolyees need at least 8 hrs off after a day's work. The industry has taken that as their mantra concerning rest. Eight hours off is all you need because the government says so. Pay for a study to see what rail empolyees really need? No way, the FRA says 8 hrs off is all that is needed, that is all we need to know.

Imagine the difference if Ricky Gates had walked down the tracks with Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes and told him , "All train crews are working tired, everyone is doing it and that is why I missed the signal in front of Amtrak and killed those people." Instead he said the problem was drug use so we have random drug tests instead of better rest rules.

[jeaton]

Looking over the posts on this topic and the previous topic on the same subject, I think there has been a tendency to mix the issues of life style and safety. Both are or can be a consequence of the nature of the job.

There is no doubt in my mind that the absence of any predictable work schedule will have an impact on family life, or even on the life of a single person. As a single person, I worked in train service and two weeks after my initial mark-up, I had worked during every hour of a day. I have had other on-call or erratically scheduled jobs, both as a single and married person. The inability to plan family or social events sucked, however, just like anybody taking a T&E job, I knew just what I was facing. I decided that the compensation for those jobs was was satisfactory, so I accepted the jobs. As Mark and severals other have noted, implementing a tightly scheduled railroad operation as a solution to this issue is considerably more than little off the mark from a cost/benefit consideration.

No doubt the scheduling situation also contributes to fatigue and sleep depravation, however it seems to me that some things can be done to mitigate those conditions. While somewhat easier said than done, getting the right number of people on a given roster can help. The object would be to avoid having so few on the roster that calls with minimum rest is the norm and also having too many on the list so that employee earning levels drop below an acceptable level. The other items mentioned such as allowing a crew member to nap when circumstances allow or providing for full rest days at some frequency could reduce dangerous incidents of fatique and sleep depravation.

But as Mark has noted, there is no magic bullet, no easy solutions. And that, I believe, is a common situation in the world today.

Jay

[passengerfan]

And truckdriving long distance is no better. Sure their are logbooks that drivers are supposed to fill out accurately and no more than ten hours driving after eight hours rest. I can attest to the fact that most drivers run two or more log books and can remember many times that it would have been my job if I had failed to make a delivery. One case I rtemember loading all day finishing at 5:00 PM in Long Beach CA then being told the load needed to be in Albuquerque at 9:00 am the next morning. Somehow I always made it but today having reached retirement I am paying the price aches and pains and poor health. Was it worth it no. Would I do it again if I had it to do all over again probably.

[Anonymous]

Bid a yard job, days or afternoons are alright.

[Anonymous]

Weres Ed Elis? the creator of Express he is missing from the artical

[MP173]

It seems to me that I hear about train wrecks involving crews falling asleep and running signals frequently.

Lots of respect for train crews and cops for the schedules you endure. Personally I couldnt handle it and I choose not to.

I do feel the industry has an obligation to it's employees, shareholders, and customers, plus the communities they serve to address issues of safety. Now, whether or not this is a big enough "issue of safety", I dont know. It sounds as if the 7and 3 schedule system would be a step in the right direction. But, to say that railroads cannot economically address this issue...I find that hard to believe. Fire Departments, ambulance services, off shore drilling companies and many others have faced and addressed the issue.

ed

[edblysard]

First,
I read back through, and can't find a thing about "rough and tough" "we can handle anything"

What I can find is what I said..."if you can't hack the hours, you can't hack railroading"

Not because "us" railroaders are a tough bunch of guys...but because we have adjusted our lives to fit the schedule.

What I mean if you can't do that,(adjust) you cant railroad...just as much as "if you cant hack the hours, you cant be a cop".

Maybe I should have said,"If you cant live this lifestyle, you shouldn't try this for a living"

Why?

Because the railroad isnt going to undergo a radical change in that area, by mutual consent of both parties.

Police departments arent going to change much in that area either, are they?

Collin, how often have you trailed a suspect, or sat on a suspect's location, for hours at a time, doing nothing but watching and listening?

Lots, if your a career law enforcment officer.

So, after say, 10 hours of sitting in a van, or a house across the street from a suspect's house, and everything suddenly goes wrong, I am supposed to trust you to be awake and alert enough to draw and use your sidearm in a safe manner, in a highly populated urban area, if the need arises?

If you can answer yes to that question, then you already know the answer to how we can sit on locomotive up to 12 hours, working our way across the country, and still be trusted to do the right thing if and when the need arises.

The same reason you can be trusted with a sidearm...training, then some more training, after which we train some, followed by a little more training....

We get tested on a regular basis, every thing from rules knowledge to red flag stop test...those that pass are the guys running the trains.

As a cop, are you required to perform a profeciency test every quarter, both in applied situtiations and in theory?

Do you have to undergo random drug test?

When was the last time your commander tested your "driving" skills?

How often are you required to quote a rule of the day, both a opperating rule and a safety rule?

We do, every day.

I would assume that, as I was required to qualify yearly with my sidearm when I worked for my state's Attorney General's Offiice, you are required to do so also.

So, even though you are required to sit in the most boring, mind numbing situations, and often required to react with little or no warning to a life threatening situation, you expect the public to trust your judgement, and feel you are qualified to do your job correctly, with the publics interest in mind.

I expect the same thing, and feel the same way.

Trust me, if we were not qualified, and very, very sure of what we do, we wouldnt be here.

Something not often discussed is our rules, and the fact that most of them are redundent...you cant break one rule only, you have to make a effort to do that. and every rule we work under has another rule that, in some manner, covers another rule, which makes you obey another rule...almost a failsafe set of rules.

If you follow them all, to the letter, you pretty much cant screw up.

Not to say it dosnt happen, but how many train wrecks, blamed on crew fatigue only, can you list here?

Considering the sheer number of miles, in the millions, we run every year, its safer to ride with us"rough, tough, macho minded" guys than it is to walk across a busy suburban street.

You have a better chance of being struck by lightning, hit by a car while crossing the street, or bitten by a snake, than that of you being hurt in a train wreck.

Ed
[:D]

[daveklepper]

Marc, i GOT THE MESSAGE. But we still hear about terminal delays being a major cause of long hours, of lack of coordination between the main line dispatchers and the yardmasters who have to receive and dispatch the trains. Both problems can be alleviated, that is this congestion problem and the crew alertness situation, by scheduling operations as much as possible, with intelligent planning that takes into consideration, yes the parking lot capacity and the washrooms and of course the physical track layout and the equipment and the expected traffic and most improtant the people. Apparently the BNSF Transcon and NS's Triple Crown are pretty close to this ideal and the UP Chemical Coast the area needing the most improvement.

[gabe]

Also, I certainly am not suggesting that railroaders seek danger for the sake of danger. Of course that is nonesense. However, even Limitedclear's post suggested that being tired is part of the job, and you better be able to handle it.

My only contention is that people can't "tough their way out of being tired" and from the posts under this heading alone--to say nothing of other threads, there seems to be a culture among railroaders that they shouldn't "complain"--to use a slightly different word--when the job gets tough. In short, I was responding to the contention that it is possible to tough your way out of being tired--I was not faulting railroaders for the realities of their chosen occupation.

Gabe

[gabe]

From people who seem to know a lot about railroading and, thus far, have commanded my respect. To quote from this thread--alone--:

"Actually,
we like it the way it is....
Those who want to ride the board do so....
If they cant hack the hours, they cant hack railroading in the first place....
Trust me, this stuff aint for everybody.
First time you get caught out in a hail storm or a thunder storm will let you know if this is for you...the long hours are part of the job."

"If that's the case, why not be happy with your situation and quite b******g about it?"

"Operating Railroad jobs are not for the faint of heart and the weak of dedication or constitution."

I am not sure my characterization is unsupported by these statements.
Gabe

[Anonymous]

Gabe-

Many of the major systems have gone the napping route including UP, BNSF, Conrail, CSX and others. NS I believe does it at some larger terminals as well.

I can remember many a night heading out for my 1 1/2 hour trip home and hitting one or more napping stops at rest areas or convenience stores. The Extra List stinks and I was able to stay off it and regulate my hours a bit better on regular jobs as time went by. Seniority is a wonderful thing.

LC

[gabe]

I certainly agree with Mark's conclusion that the way Colin stated his contentions his point would not be well taken. Furthermore, let me say, I have nothing but respect for the difficulty and professionalism that constitutes your average railroad worker. However, to state Colin's point a little more differently, I do see a problem with the many above statements, which effectively argue, “railroading is for tough, rugged individuals therefore, if you aren't tough enough to handle the lack of sleep, do not apply.”

I think there is a "we can handle it because we are tough" attitude in railroading that is a remnant of Civil War military personnel infiltrating the ranks of railroads after the war. Although this attitude is often beneficial, I don't think it is when it relates to sleep.

Sleep deprivation is not simply a matter of toughness. In my line of work, I see the tragic results of absolutely brilliant--and often "tough"--people who are sleep deprived doing something that they would never do in a million years on a good night's sleep. Also, one should look at Army research concerning individual's effectiveness when sleep deprived. The Army is just as tough as railroads--yet their results conclusively show lack of sleep substantially reduces the effectiveness of otherwise competent individuals. More chilling is this statistic in relation to "friendly fire" incidents.

Saying if you aren't tough, you shouldn't be a railroader just adds to the problem. It makes people feel as though they better not let anyone know that they are getting tired while they are in charge of a 10,000-ton chemical train--because that wouldn't be tough. When the adrenalin is pumping, you might be able to effectively fight your way though sleep deprivation problems. However, one cannot run on adrenalin for twelve hours and there is nothing to really cause the body to produce adrenalin.

Gabe

P.S. Something that I am surprised hasn't been mentioned thus far is naps. I seem to remember hearing that UP is now allowing 45-minute naps in certain circumstances. I think this is a great compromise. 45 minutes rest can really help someone's effectiveness. I hope there aren't UP engineers who are too "tough" to admit that they need a nap when that nap might help their safety and that of their train.