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NS approaching a melt down ?

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Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:01 PM

Oil train 65Z just received authority to pass thru limits at 479.

Ed

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:06 PM

second oil train has route, now.

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:13 PM

There is an 18A on track 2 - should be through Porter shortly.  Looks like the dispatcher could run the intermodal and two Amtraks 1 to 2 and around the oil trains.  Nothing EB in the works.  We'll see....

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:21 PM

Yep.  21M going 1 to 2 at Porter.

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Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:27 PM

Good news...Amtrak 29 received limits at 479 at 225pm.  I see you are on the move now.

21M lined up as Don said.

Ed

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:34 PM

There is a plan for the Capitol to follow 21M, but no route request, yet.

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Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:48 PM

Dispatcher indicated 21M is currently recrewing ahead of 29.

Amtrak 29 has only an hour left to work.  Oh crap.  Now what?  These are Amtrak crews....correct?

Ed 

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:49 PM

Capitol is on it's way.  LSL is next - no plan yet.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:50 PM

The thought on combining the LSL & Capitols were to combine at Toledo and Chicago those stations being off main tracks which would be one less train until this mess can be cleaned up .  If it can be cleaned up  ?.  Would allow one less Amtrak engineer and in a pinch one less conductor  ?  .

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:50 PM

route is up.  Here you go!

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 2:53 PM

MP173

Dispatcher indicated 21M is currently recrewing ahead of 29.

Amtrak 29 has only an hour left to work.  Oh crap.  Now what?  These are Amtrak crews....correct?

Ed 

yep.  Amtrak has been known to borrow a qualified NS engineer, but.....

At least west of Porter, Amtrak should have a good number of qualified crews.  

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:02 PM

21M is on the move.  Capital and LSL poking along behind.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:08 PM

blue streak 1

The thought on combining the LSL & Capitols were to combine at Toledo and Chicago those stations being off main tracks which would be one less train until this mess can be cleaned up .  If it can be cleaned up  ?.  Would allow one less Amtrak engineer and in a pinch one less conductor  ?  .

Building the comboed train would take track space, an inspection and a brake test.  Not sure there is a good place to do it anymore in Toledo.

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Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:11 PM

It is going to be a sprint to the finish.  AMT29 is now moving at 59 mph with an estimated arrival time of 349pm.  My notes indicate the crew will probably expire at 4pm.  

17V ahead is stopping to tie down 31Q which is in a siding somewhere.  Crew wasnt able to tie down the train before expiring.

Ed

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:13 PM

21M has a route into Englewood.  

EB Amtrak train as CP513 now

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:15 PM

MP173
17V ahead is stopping to tie down 31Q which is in a siding somewhere.  Crew wasnt able to tie down the train before expiring.

That's happening at CP 505.  31Q is on a siding.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:30 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The Calumet River Bridge is not the only movable span on this line.  There is a movable bridge over the Indiana Harbor Ship Canal in East Chicago and Amtrak's South Branch Bridge would be a factor for Amtrak trains and through trains to the BNSF.

Only one span is still in service at Calumet River.  Since this is only a double track main, the expense of restoring additional spans to service would be unnecessary unless additional main tracks are added to this line.

 
Agree that additional main tracks are necessary.
 
The point is a bridge failure anywhere on this line could be disastrous.  Look what happened when MNRR's swing bridge failed.  100+ year old bridges are subject to increased failures.  If there is a .02% chance of one bridge failing each time it operates 100 operations means  2% chance of bridge failing.   If another bridge on same route  has a .5% chance of failing each time operating and if it operates 15 times in same period that 1st bridge operates then it is a possible 7.5% failure chance.  Add in 1st bridge give a total 9.5% failure chance.  These numbers are arbitrary but you get the idea.
 
The question was what will it take to get the second Calumet bridge operative again ?  Agree that this route definitely needs tracks restored.
 
Does  the Indiana Harbor Ship canal bridge still have provisions for 4 tracks ?  
 
 
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 29, 2014 3:38 PM

oltmannd

Building the comboed train would take track space, an inspection and a brake test.  Not sure there is a good place to do it anymore in Toledo.

 
Toledo has combined the 2 trains before but have no link.  The off route platform is very long and approach tracks go a long way before joining the main.  Might need car inspector based there or  inbound crew could perform ?  This might save on crew delays since it appears that crew availability is a problem.
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Posted by Fred Frailey on Monday, September 29, 2014 4:04 PM

Any food left on 29? I doubt they bring 2 extra meals with them in the diner, and the cafe car has teeny storage.

Fred F

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Posted by NKP guy on Monday, September 29, 2014 4:24 PM

Does it ever occur to the geniuses at Amtrak that, since the delays to the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited are daily and can be counted upon for the foreseeable future, to use buses to get passengers between Chicago and Cleveland, where the trains could be turned and serviced?  I know, I know there are logistical complications, but for a company that wanted to get people to where they were going more or less on time this would be a solution worth doing.  After all, what's the cost of losing future passengers in droves every day under the current policy of on-time indifference?

Personal note:  I just cancelled an eastbound trip on 30; keeping the 49 trip to Cleveland.  

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Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 29, 2014 4:46 PM

NKP:

Or Amtrak could fly them to Cleveland via Southwest Airlines....oops that wouldnt have worked either.

Tough to get into or out of Chicago these days.  You can check out anytime you like, but it is difficult to leave.

Looks like Amt 49 made it into CUS, but 29 is still in Indiana unless the system is not correct.

Ed 

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Posted by jeaton on Monday, September 29, 2014 4:49 PM
Fred
I checked with Chief Donna. She said no and is going to stay on NEC jobs.

Last Friday, I did get a comp'd bowl of canned stew.
After crew change we are just to pass Englewood

Jay signing off. It's been fun.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 29, 2014 5:18 PM

Fred Frailey

Any food left on 29? I doubt they bring 2 extra meals with them in the diner, and the cafe car has teeny storage.  Fred F

 
 Fred :  It is time for you and the staff to do some deep research on these delays and possible solutions.  Of course CSX at this time into Chicago needs investigation as well .
 
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 29, 2014 5:41 PM

Question ?

What are the average spacing of the signals on this stretch ?.  Understand the  ~~  spacing over the years has been lengthened to about 2 miles ?  If this 2 miles is now prevalent would cutting that in half to  ~ 1 mile and its large cost increase capacity or just put en route trains closer but still plug route ? 

Would it be better to restore the 3rd MT and maybe 4th MT with current signal spacing ?

 

   

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Posted by jeaton on Monday, September 29, 2014 6:01 PM
For the record, Amtrak 29 arrived Chicago Union Station 9/29/14 8 hours 35 minutes late.
That is far short of my personal Amtrak best 17 hours 33 minutes Denver-Princeton, IL C.Z. July, 2011

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, September 29, 2014 6:26 PM

Signal spacing is based on braking abilities of the primary user - NS tonnage freight trains.  For the NS (or any Class 1 freight carrier) to protect their trains with 1 mile signal spacing there would be multiple forms of less than Clear signal indications on multiple signals behind a train.  The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing.  For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles).  The same progression is in effect behind the train.  When starting multiple trains that have been stopped at a Control Point, following trains normally, unless specifically instructed, will wait for a least an Approach indication before proceeding. (Approach is 'approach next signal prepared to stop, not exceeding medium speed'; Restricted Proceed is 'Proceed at Restricted Speed (a speed not exceeding 15 MPH prepared to stop short of train or track condition within 1/2 the range of vision).

There are NO QUICK FIXES to capacity issues and first you have to get to the root cause of the issues you are facing.  Vis a Vie Chicago - Are connecting carriers handling your traffic in a routine timely manner?  Are your own terminals handling their own traffic in a routine timely manner.  Do you have sufficient locomotive power to move trains as soon as they are built on schedule?  Do you have enough qualified Train and Engine crews to move the traffic when the trains are requested by terminals or crew change points.  Do you have enough Train and Engine crews or Remote Control Operators to staff your terminals as necessary?  Is the problem a combination of all the problems previously enumerated?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, September 29, 2014 10:03 PM

BaltACD

  The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing.  For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles). 

>Balt:  At those locations that observed use 1 mile nominal spacing the use of advance approach is almost always used.  Does that 6 mile for clear really work any better by giving some more density ?  Have not observed any on down grades.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, September 29, 2014 10:29 PM

blue streak 1

BaltACD

  The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing.  For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles). 

>Balt:  At those locations that observed use 1 mile nominal spacing the use of advance approach is almost always used.  Does that 6 mile for clear really work any better by giving some more density ?  Have not observed any on down grades.

You are not looking at it from the Dispatchers perspective in trying to give as many trains as possible (especially Amtrak) Clear signals to operate on.  With 1 mile signal spacing, a nominal 9000-10000 foot freight train is actually occupying consecutive signal blocks all the time.  Braking distances for freight trains are not calculated on Emergency application - they are calculated on regular service brake applications.

I don't know if NS has their trains call signal indications and block occupancy and station stops on the road radio channel - Mine does.  You can hear a overtaking train call a less than Clear signal as they come upon the train to be overtaken.

When it comes to congestion such as NS is experiencing West of Cleveland - remember- there are only so many 'hiding spots' where a 'dead' train can be held without affecting operations.  The NS problem is that they have used all the 'hiding spots' and now they have dead and dying trains on Main Tracks and the operating trains have to operate around the dead - the dead trains have in effect created miles of 'single track' that have to be negotiated in one direction and then the other - in some cases these single track segments end up being 30-40-50 miles or more.

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, September 29, 2014 10:39 PM

Sounds like there is only so much they can do with the apparent limitations and constraints.  Hence the near/actual meltdown.

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Posted by MP173 on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:20 AM

NS does in fact call signals, slow orders, etc. on the road channel.  It makes for interesting monitoring of the operations of a segment.

Balt...that is exactly what is occurring.  The hiding spots are all taken and with grade crossings every mile or less, there are only a few ideal parking spots on mainlines.  These too are grabbed.  From Gary west it is mainly industrial so there are not as many road crossings.  Trains tend to be stacked there.  Also there are more #3 and #4 tracks in that area.

The Trains Map of the Month for February, 2014 gives great detail.

Ed

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