Dakguy201 MP173 2. If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time. They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment. Ed Last night's Lake Shore departed Chicago at 2:45am, some 5 hours 15 minutes late. It was last reported at Elkhart, more than 8 hours late. The Capitol is listed as a service disruption, so I don't know if it even ran.
MP173 2. If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time. They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment. Ed
2. If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time. They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment.
Ed
Last night's Lake Shore departed Chicago at 2:45am, some 5 hours 15 minutes late. It was last reported at Elkhart, more than 8 hours late. The Capitol is listed as a service disruption, so I don't know if it even ran.
Johnny
Isn't this just the culmination of years and years of consolidation?
This is the drill: The big boys have been gobbling up the smaller lines for years and years, taking the bridge traffic off and then claiming the acquired lines will no longer support themselves with local business only, so they file for abandonment, and are successful. Alternate lines that once were available are removed for the express economic benefit of the lines that are now "victims" of the congestion that resulted in part from that consolidation.
What better solution than to now expect the tax payers to fund enhancements to add capacity to the remaining overloaded infrastructure.
There are so many lines that once bypassed/avoided Chicago that are no more, because they were choked off through the above process. The result is your "meltdown"
Convicted One Isn't this just the culmination of years and years of consolidation? This is the drill: The big boys have been gobbling up the smaller lines for years and years, taking the bridge traffic off and then claiming the acquired lines will no longer support themselves with local business only, so they file for abandonment, and are successful. Alternate lines that once were available are removed for the express economic benefit of the lines that are now "victims" of the congestion that resulted in part from that consolidation. What better solution than to now expect the tax payers to fund enhancements to add capacity to the remaining overloaded infrastructure. There are so many lines that once bypassed/avoided Chicago that are no more, because they were choked off through the above process. The result is your "meltdown"
First I have to say I am not entirely clear what the status of those former trunk lines is: downgraded, sold off to short lines or abandoned. If the feds get involved in upgrading an abandoned RoW, they should simply take it through eminent domain and use it as a dedicated, passenger-only HSR route linking the east coast with the midwest with a viable service not subject to meltdowns due to short-sighted freight railroad strategies.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Will the cancelling of CL &LSL help any ? @ 2 less trains each way ?
Actually four per day and I think that would be a help. Those are 79mph trains vs 60 and 50 mph trains, plus the highest priority trains on the circuit.
Yesterday sounded pretty chaotic. NS was tying trains down everywhere and didnt have enough "wheels" to transport crews back to Elkhart and Chicago. There was a shortage of van drivers.
CSX seemed very chaotic also and to top it off CN had to issue 7 slow orders to their trains between Griffith and MP 100.
Was this all coincidence or a dominio effect? Meanwhile the NS NKP seems fluid.
Ed, I'd love to rent a room in your house for a week. You live in the middle of the storm. Just for fun I turned on the Chesterton camera and booted up the NS Chicago Line on ATCS Monitor yesterday while I worked. I swear that hours went by without a train going through Chesterton. Every so often I heard an off-camera whistle from a Michigan Line train. I guess the definition of gridlock is when nothing moves. Felt like that yesterday. I think that Amtrak did the right thing. At some inconvenience to its passengers (a 200-mile bus ride) it delivered them within a semblance of the schedule. Last night the westbound Capitol got decent handling by CSX (21 minutes late arriving Pittsburgh) but is now almost 3 hours late approaching Toledo, where it will terminate. Apparently the wb Lake Shore is already terminated this morning in Toledo. The new normal, indeed.
Fred
Elsewhere with late trains:
I've been checking on the Empire Builder in the run-up to a trip of my own, and Sunday's eastbound edition out of Minot departed 4 hours late and lost another 5 hours between there and Chicago, arriving at the latter in the wee hours of morning. Ugh!
Today's Trains Newswire reports that the LSL and Capitol for Monday and Today have terminated/turned at Toledo with bus service between there and Chicago. Trains received no response to questions about tomorrow and future days.
As much as I would not like having to drag my luggage around, if I were going, I'd rather be moving forward.
With no indication that the situation will improve shortly, I think Amtrak should continue busing at least until the trains can stay within no more than 3-4 hours late. Until they can get a lot closer to on time, I'm using different modes.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
MP173 [snipped - PDN] . . . Meanwhile the NS NKP seems fluid.
- Paul North.
Fred Frailey Ed, I'd love to rent a room in your house for a week. You live in the middle of the storm. Just for fun I turned on the Chesterton camera and booted up the NS Chicago Line on ATCS Monitor yesterday while I worked. I swear that hours went by without a train going through Chesterton. Every so often I heard an off-camera whistle from a Michigan Line train. I guess the definition of gridlock is when nothing moves. Felt like that yesterday. I think that Amtrak did the right thing. At some inconvenience to its passengers (a 200-mile bus ride) it delivered them within a semblance of the schedule. Last night the westbound Capitol got decent handling by CSX (21 minutes late arriving Pittsburgh) but is now almost 3 hours late approaching Toledo, where it will terminate. Apparently the wb Lake Shore is already terminated this morning in Toledo. The new normal, indeed. Fred
Fred:We will keep the light on for you. I am in a pretty good location, as long as the scanner picks up the action.
Today I had to go to Westville (near MP470) and then into Chicago. Between MP470 and 482 (at our office) there were 3 non moving NS trains.
On my return from Chicago around 1pm I heard the CSX dispatcher comment to a track inspector that he couldnt have time and track as he was single tracking from Pine Jct to Walkerton. This is 49 miles of trains parked on main 1. So...CSX's troubles have returned. Recrews were all along the way. Q500-4 recrewed. That is the Cincinnati - Chicago train of Saturday. It normally would have passed thru around noon Sunday. Oops...2 days late. Q393-03 left Selkirk on Friday and just now Q`147 tied down in East Gary.
Meanwhile the CN and NKP lines keep moving along...for now. Why doesnt NS move some oil trains over to the NKP? The train lengths are 6500 ft, just about the same as the sidings. Throw a couple of oil trains each day and relieve the pressure.
Fred, let me know your arrival date!
schlimm First I have to say I am not entirely clear what the status of those former trunk lines is: downgraded, sold off to short lines or abandoned. If the feds get involved in upgrading an abandoned RoW, they should simply take it through eminent domain and use it as a dedicated, passenger-only HSR route linking the east coast with the midwest with a viable service not subject to meltdowns due to short-sighted freight railroad strategies.
Well, the real issue is that the freight lines continue to choke Chicago as a matter of their preference, they go there in spite of the crowding because they WANT to go there. So it's a little dishonest to place the burden of untangling the resulting mess onto anyone BUT themselves.
The Railroad's speil that "each double stack container train takes 250(+/-) trucks off the road, and with 100+ trains per day the railroads divert 25,000 semis from NOT congesting Chicago freeways" (therefore Chicago taxpayers should feel obliged to support programs such as CREATE, because the taxpaying motorist benefits most) is a bit of a whopper.
First of all that claim conveniently overlooks that 25,000 truckers wouldn't ALL opt to go through chicago if they didn't have to. Put freedom of choice into each truck cab and most of those truckers would opt for I-70, I-40, or various other routes as a means to get from one coast to the other without stubbornly ramrodding it all through Chicago.
Perfectly serviceable RR lines from St Louis (among others) to points east were rationalized during the consolidation era, so the railroads could save a buck. Why now expect the taxpaying public to further reward the Railroad's stockholders by paying to fix problems caused by rationalization in the first place?
The former PRR's Vandalia and Panhandle lines combined would have been one servicable alternative to Chicago, And the old Clover leaf coupled with the east end of the old Nickle Plate would have been another. In fact the NS's former Wabash would serve a chicago by pass right now if the Railroads genuinely WANTED to avoid Chicago.
Have BNSF hand off intermodal bound for the east coast to NS at WB junction in Missouri, run those up the former Wabash line to Butler Indiana, and then onto the Water Level route to points east, and chicago never comes into the equation
Is the unspoken but overriding issue here that no railroad wants to shorthaul itself by handing off its trains to some sort of belt line before reaching its farthest possible terminal (Chicago in this case) and thus leaving money on the table? If so, it would certainly explain why Chicago continues to be the Gordian Knot of the railroads. Would it not be possible to cobble together such a bypass from existing lines and/or old rights-of-way and be owned equally by all the majors with some sort of revenue sharing formula (not that any of that would be easy).
The NS managament has to install new automated sidings along the mainline tracks, anywhere they can fit them.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Andrew Falconer The NS managament has to install new automated sidings along the mainline tracks, anywhere they can fit them.
As I am well aware, they have multiple projects stalled by outside entities beyond their control. It's frustrating. (and their consultants are also in a bind coming out of the recent business slump/ unsteady economy with similar issues)
Convicted one:You make sense, but I think there are a few flaws....not in your reasoning, but in the execution. The Wabash line is a great piece of railroad, on the map. I do not have the information necessary to discuss this completely, but my recollection is that this line is single track CTC. The problem might be that the line would have difficulties handling 10000 ft stack trains. Perhaps someone has the resources at hand to discuss the sidings on the Wabash line.
Second, BNSF and UP will shorthaul themselves by handing freight off at KC. At some point in time, that will not be an issue as the benefits of interchange at KC will greatly outweight the added revenue of hauling to Chicago. Fred Frailey discussed potential interchange of BNSF and NS at Smithboro, Il.
Ok, the old NKP and L&N lines out of St. Louis are long gone. No reason to cry over that. Those lines will never come back, only to live in old Official Guides. But, the B&O line to Cincinnati still hangs on as does the PRR line from Chicago thru Ft. Wayne and the TP&W.
I think the rails are waiting to see what happens with oil. If this is a five year gusher until the pipelines are built, then adding $B of expansion will see delayed benefits. Perhaps, as I suggested earlier, the rails should tie up some of that oil business as long term committments, such as the pipelines do....then planning and capex can proceed.
What is happening at Chicago has more to do with Terminal Capacity than it does with the capacity of the lines into Chicago. If the terminal facilities could handle the traffic - FOR ALL CARRIERS - you would not be seeing the line back up exemplified by the NS. Terminal capacity is more than just yard trackage - it includes the crews and routes to keep trains that interchange from carrier to carrier moving and that would appear to be the biggest problem at the present time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt:Do you have any suggestions as how this could be handled? Is CREATE a viable solution? Everything seems to slow down as it approaches Chicago. Some days things seem to flow well, but then there are times it just plugs up.
BaltACD What is happening at Chicago has more to do with Terminal Capacity than it does with the capacity of the lines into Chicago. If the terminal facilities could handle the traffic - FOR ALL CARRIERS - you would not be seeing the line back up exemplified by the NS. Terminal capacity is more than just yard trackage - it includes the crews and routes to keep trains that interchange from carrier to carrier moving and that would appear to be the biggest problem at the present time.
If that were the case, wouldn't one expect delays similar to those of the NS on UP, BNSF, CN, CP and other lines west, south and north from and to Chicago?
MP173 Fred Frailey discussed potential interchange of BNSF and NS at Smithboro, Il. Ed
Fred Frailey discussed potential interchange of BNSF and NS at Smithboro, Il.
Smithsboro is going to be a BNSF CSX connection, and is scheduled to go into service on December 1st.
An "expensive model collector"
schlimm BaltACD What is happening at Chicago has more to do with Terminal Capacity than it does with the capacity of the lines into Chicago. If the terminal facilities could handle the traffic - FOR ALL CARRIERS - you would not be seeing the line back up exemplified by the NS. Terminal capacity is more than just yard trackage - it includes the crews and routes to keep trains that interchange from carrier to carrier moving and that would appear to be the biggest problem at the present time. If that were the case, wouldn't one expect delays similar to those of the NS on UP, BNSF, CN, CP and other lines west, south and north from and to Chicago?
I don't know the mix of NS traffic between interchange to foreign carriers and traffic that terminates on the NS in Chicago and what the NS facilities are for handling that traffic. Each carriers problem areas and traffic mix are unique to that carrier.
n012944:I stand corrected regarding Smithboro. Thanks for the correction.
On a map, that looks like a much longer haul, but if trains cannot make it thru Chicago, this could work out. I am not sure what the current status of that BNSF line is. A few years ago when I was running thru that area of Central Illinois on work, I would encounter that line and it was pretty much a coal hauling line of PRB down to the Ohio river for transloading. It was an unsignaled line with about 10 trains per day, if memory serves me.
Was this line a test for PTC? or am I making that up? It will be interesting to see if the routing will be used for a Galesburg - Avon manifest train, oil trains, or even the daily BNSF/CSX intermodal train. The PRB coal trains to CSX could even be routed via Smithboro.
That is a great first step (at least on paper) to relieve some congestion in Chicago. The question will be how many trains daily will make that trek.
MP173 n012944:I stand corrected regarding Smithboro. Thanks for the correction. On a map, that looks like a much longer haul, but if trains cannot make it thru Chicago, this could work out. I am not sure what the current status of that BNSF line is. A few years ago when I was running thru that area of Central Illinois on work, I would encounter that line and it was pretty much a coal hauling line of PRB down to the Ohio river for transloading. It was an unsignaled line with about 10 trains per day, if memory serves me. Was this line a test for PTC? or am I making that up? It will be interesting to see if the routing will be used for a Galesburg - Avon manifest train, oil trains, or even the daily BNSF/CSX intermodal train. The PRB coal trains to CSX could even be routed via Smithboro. That is a great first step (at least on paper) to relieve some congestion in Chicago. The question will be how many trains daily will make that trek. Ed
Ed this has been under development all year. Last word I got is that they start with one oil train each way a day and work up as experience and crew bases develop. They were also going to reconfigure the transfer track to be less strenuous. Don't know if that has been done. May also explain the slow start.
MP173Ok, the old NKP and L&N lines out of St. Louis are long gone. No reason to cry over that. Those lines will never come back, only to live in old Official Guides
Not really "crying", just pointing out that the railroads are as much if not more "perpetratror" as they are "victim" to the overloaded plant.
It irks me a little the way they solicit public funding to improve their own plant citing benefits to motorists, when they once had extra capacity that they squandered away (to save a buck). More succinctly, why should it be the motorists who pay now to fix problems caused by rationalization? Because they happen to be suffering as a result of prior cost saving strategy? Let the ones who actually benefitted from that cost saving strategy pay to unknot the problem.
It would be great to have some of those lines back now. I grew up in Southern Illinois and for years we drove to Mattoon, Il to see my Aunt Hulda (Uncle Lem was a railroader for the IC). I never saw a train in all those years on the NKP / NW line which ran from St. Louis to Frankfort. The B&O line thru my hometown of Olney dwindled down to about 3 or 4 trains per day.
The railroads had to jetison those lines in order to survive. It wasnt going to occur without rationalization of the plant. Fast forward to 2014 and those lines could be used.
I am amazed that the Smithboro interchange will be used. Look at the Google map and you will see that interchange has been gone for years. Creative thinking is in play here....let's find some capacity and use it. I read on other sites this afternoon that NS and BNSF are thinking of opening up the Peoria to more interchange. If BNSF is going to run to Peoria and invest in the line from Galesburg, then why not the TP&W. Throw some money into that line and run a couple of trains daily to Logansport (NS) or Reynolds (CSX).
Let's get the crayons out of the box and start coloring those maps. If this industry is truly going to be a growth industry, then capital will be required.
Convicted One MP173 Ok, the old NKP and L&N lines out of St. Louis are long gone. No reason to cry over that. Those lines will never come back, only to live in old Official Guides Not really "crying", just pointing out that the railroads are as much if not more "perpetratror" as they are "victim" to the overloaded plant. It irks me a little the way they solicit public funding to improve their own plant citing benefits to motorists, when they once had extra capacity that they squandered away (to save a buck). More succinctly, why should it be the motorists who pay now to fix problems caused by rationalization? Because they happen to be suffering as a result of prior cost saving strategy? Let the ones who actually benefitted from that cost saving strategy pay to unknot the problem.
MP173 Ok, the old NKP and L&N lines out of St. Louis are long gone. No reason to cry over that. Those lines will never come back, only to live in old Official Guides
Certainly there is a big mess on the NS line in eastern Indiana. Various attempts at explanation have been given. It does seem that the problem is limited to the NS, so the Chicago bottleneck does not appear to be the cause. If it is some track work between CHi and Porter, the impact of that has brought traffic to a snarl for 15 days and counting, with no end in sight.
Blue Streak would know more, but even with extensive damage at the Aurora ATC center,air traffic was able to return to pretty high levels within 8 days in the Chicago area, and the repair work will be completed shortly, all told 14-17 days. Many people on these forums have a significant contempt for the government, but here is a case where it seems to have corrected a major problem very quickly. Perhaps there is a lesson?
What is that lesson? If an NS dispatch center in (fill in the blank) were damaged, would NS be able to resume normal operations with 14 days? I think so. There are redundancies built into the railroad dispatching system.
Perhaps a better analogy would be if O'Hare were under construction which reduce 4 of their runways to 50% capacity during the holiday season. Do you think operations would be normal?
Are the rails faultless in this? Absolutely not. As we have discussed, there are a number of issues which are at the root of this problem including terminal dwell in Chicago, capital investment for Amtrak, an influx of new business, and insufficient crews.
The government does certain things well. I am not sure running a railroad system is one of them (think Amtrak).
In terms of Amtrak not operating well, an analogy might be: How well would UP run if it had to run many of its trains on a hostile and uncooperative BNSF?
Although this might provoke rage from some (just a speculative idea to toss out here), perhaps the US needs to take the long view on transportation, particularly infrastructure, another of those major issues that an increasingly ideologiclly gridlocked Congress cannot address. This might include rail right of ways being owned and maintained by a government agency and operations contracted to the private rails. The advantages for the railroads would be a huge cash inflow that could be used for investment in newer, better equipment and being able to concentrate on profitable marketing and operations. The rail system would become fairly similar in structure to our air and road systems.
So, are you suggesting that the US Government own all row's? Or just selected ones?
How would you value these row's for government purchase?
How has the airline system worked out over the years?
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