Murphy Siding To be fair, I was being serious until I found out I was part of a conspiracy to bring down the world's governments, and all it took was for ConvictedOne/The Anti-Gates/Dweezil to blow our cover. In all honesty,
Trying to descend behind the defensive veil of conspiracy allegation, ehh? Well I guess if that what it takes to cope, then I guess there's no way to stop you.
But, just in the spirit of total seriousness, I don't think that pointing out a moderator who is obviously operating with personal bias to the benefit of a select few members is the same thing as giving you credit for organizing a conspiracy. But then you know that, we both know that you know the difference.
Norm48327 Re; the paragraph I highlited. If I may speak in Murphy's defense, I was aware of what was happening when those posts were being frequently deleted. Moderators were being ordered by the IT man in charge of the forums to delete them. Seems there were some people crying to him, and he just got plain tired of hearing it and put out that order. I'm not a liberty to say much more, but a few moderators quit over it. The guilty parties know of whom I speak
Re; the paragraph I highlited.
If I may speak in Murphy's defense, I was aware of what was happening when those posts were being frequently deleted. Moderators were being ordered by the IT man in charge of the forums to delete them. Seems there were some people crying to him, and he just got plain tired of hearing it and put out that order. I'm not a liberty to say much more, but a few moderators quit over it. The guilty parties know of whom I speak
I appreciate your willingness to try and sort things out. But I'm fairly sure we are talking about multiple issues here. In my instance, the other party was definitely a railroader, one who in particular seems to find it difficult to disagree with someone without insulting them,(as is now evident in this very thread) and at the time the insults were originally posted to me, I reciprocated. And Murphy deleted my retaliation while allowing the original provocation to stand. It smacked of favoritism at the time, and it still does, regardless of his expeditionary attempt to excuse his behavior by branding his antagonist as a "conspiracy nut"
edblysard No clout that I know of, simply the time and ability to be the squeakiest wheel in the universe. You are implying something I did not write….he had no ability to tell Kalambach or Jim what to do, just the time to wear him and the mods out, precisely like those people we see in restaurants or grocery stores who make such a obnoxious spectacle out of themselves in an attempt to gain extra service or free stuff, he managed to get what he wanted simply because they wanted him to shut up and leave them alone. The poster in question was locked out of the forum under his then current screen name after that, but has since come back with a new user name. I personally know of one forum member who had 3 different screen names, and had logged in from their computer, their child’s computer and their work computer, all you need to do is set up separate e mail accounts. Now, since you just recently showed up as Euclid, and oddly, just like the person under discussion, have nothing listed in your bio too, unless you were a member back then under a different username, I find it hard to see where you could “remember” any such dust up, since none like that have occurred since you joined as Euclid….unless of course you were one of the participants back then under a different name. Care to tell us who you were then?
No clout that I know of, simply the time and ability to be the squeakiest wheel in the universe.
You are implying something I did not write….he had no ability to tell Kalambach or Jim what to do, just the time to wear him and the mods out, precisely like those people we see in restaurants or grocery stores who make such a obnoxious spectacle out of themselves in an attempt to gain extra service or free stuff, he managed to get what he wanted simply because they wanted him to shut up and leave them alone.
The poster in question was locked out of the forum under his then current screen name after that, but has since come back with a new user name.
I personally know of one forum member who had 3 different screen names, and had logged in from their computer, their child’s computer and their work computer, all you need to do is set up separate e mail accounts.
Now, since you just recently showed up as Euclid, and oddly, just like the person under discussion, have nothing listed in your bio too, unless you were a member back then under a different username, I find it hard to see where you could “remember” any such dust up, since none like that have occurred since you joined as Euclid….unless of course you were one of the participants back then under a different name.
Care to tell us who you were then?
Ed,
Perhaps you are talking about this thread and the large issue that developed around it last September:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/219868.aspx
If that is the incident that you are referring to:
Well yes, that is the same one I was talking about. And yes, of course I was Bucyrus back then. It was not meant to be a secret.
You are right that I was locked out of the forum, but just to be clear; it was my decision to be locked out. I wanted to stop posting at that time, and did not want the temptation, so I told Kalmbach to remove my registration.
So, there is no sinister intent behind coming back as a different username. I am not even sure if it was necessary to change the name. My email and password had been left intact.
I don’t know who told you that I was bothering moderators and others, causing them to place several people on moderation status (meaning unable to post without moderator approval). I spoke only to one moderator, and he agreed with my position, and certainly did not think I was the problem. He put you and several others on moderation status because he thought you all were the problem. Obviously if he had thought I was the problem, he would have put me on moderation.
You will recall that several people who resented that thread mobbed it with dozens of off topic, often snarky, gibberish nonsense posts under the phony pretext of being “railroader humor.”
Their hope was that it would provoke me to lash out, raising the temperature, and getting the thread locked. I was told by the moderator to not respond to the provocations because it would raise the temperature and get the thread locked.
I was told by the moderator, that the moderators were told by a higher authority associated with the forum, that the higher authority did not want the thread to be locked. That higher authority had said that as long as it stayed civil, it could continue. I was also told by the moderator that another moderator desperately wanted the thread to be locked. But it remained unlocked as had been ordered.
Then the moderator removed all the off topic nonsense posts, and warned all the perpetrators. And then they came right back and did it again. So the second time, the moderator put those posters on “moderation status.”
Then the many of those who had been disciplined claimed that their posts, which the moderator had removed, were legitimate, on topic discussion points. They claimed that I had the moderator remove their posts simply because I disagreed with the points they made in those posts. The fact is that the moderator did not remove any legitimate, topical posts whether they agreed with me or not. He only removed the off-topic nonsense posts that were intended to provoke a fight.
Look at the thread today. There are plenty of posts there that disagree with my points. That ought to disprove the allegation that I had the moderator remove every post that I disagreed with.
Some of the disciplined posters also claimed that I had insulted everyone who disagreed with me. Look at the thread and show me where I insulted anybody even once. There need not be any speculation about what I said in that thread. It is all there and accessible today as a perfect record. Certainly there are disagreements over several points. But you will not find any of my rebuttals or challenges that include snide, rude and condescending or patronizing comments. My impression was that the people who said I was insulting them simply regarded my challenge of their viewpoint as being an insult.
edblysard We have a few guys like that here now. I am not sure but some of them just like watching arguments happen, or are they “Spoons” who enjoy stirring the pot for their personal amusement, because they don’t often participate in the railroad discussions, but jump in with both feet in any argument currently running and fan the flames as hard as they can. The trolls that start threads to cause problems I can handle, they are to be expected on any forum, but the spoons just aggravate the heck out of me, and most of the other railroaders, and we will go toe to toe with them, mostly because we work with a spoon or two on our carrier, and recognize the personality…it is just as annoying here as there.
We have a few guys like that here now.
I am not sure but some of them just like watching arguments happen, or are they “Spoons” who enjoy stirring the pot for their personal amusement, because they don’t often participate in the railroad discussions, but jump in with both feet in any argument currently running and fan the flames as hard as they can.
The trolls that start threads to cause problems I can handle, they are to be expected on any forum, but the spoons just aggravate the heck out of me, and most of the other railroaders, and we will go toe to toe with them, mostly because we work with a spoon or two on our carrier, and recognize the personality…it is just as annoying here as there.
You know Ed, it's really easy (on the web) to brand people we don't care for as "trolls". Many times that term is used accurately. But just as frequently I see the term abused as catch-all dismissive used against parties who we simply don't like or that we do not share priorities with.
For instance, It's not uncommon to see people having strong singular preferences (hoping to present only their side of an issue) who are angered when others try to make sure both sides of an issue get equal attention, it's far too easy for them to brand their perceived irritants as "trolls" simply as a way to discredit any opposition.
Whether or not the subject is in fact no more than a troll often comes down to a matter of "intentionalism vs functionalism" . And recognizing the difference IMO, is important before dismissing someone as a "troll".
Euclid Then this can cause the aggrieved group to mob the thread with snarky off topic comments just to try to provoke the person who will not agree with them. This, of course, is classic trolling and violates the forum rule against off topic comments, and also the one against personal attacks if the comment goes that far, which they often do. Obviously, the objective is to provoke the one who fails to agree into lashing out and raising the temperature in the hope of spooking the moderators into locking the thread.
Then this can cause the aggrieved group to mob the thread with snarky off topic comments just to try to provoke the person who will not agree with them.
This, of course, is classic trolling and violates the forum rule against off topic comments, and also the one against personal attacks if the comment goes that far, which they often do. Obviously, the objective is to provoke the one who fails to agree into lashing out and raising the temperature in the hope of spooking the moderators into locking the thread.
Man, talk about a 'called shot'. Were you prescient on this, or not?
Perhaps I have some mental limitations but I just looked at the last 5 pages of this thread and there really isn't anything about trains or railroading. It's a ***th session about other forum members.
Not real sure I use the word troll all that often, I try to refrain from applying it to people just because they bug me.
I do apply it to folks who, over and over, exhibit the same negative, antagonistic attitude and make the same basic snide comments over and over…same folks will argue to the death the fact that the background for the forum is not white, but a light shade of grey, just to cause an argument.
The same person will argue against anything if it causes dissent, or, as in the case of Kyle, for something if it is argumentative.
On the other hand, just because someone may be presenting a subject or hold a position that is unpopular doesn’t make them a troll.
Take the old issue Bucky/Euclid is trying to dredge up…I received the same basic facts Norm presented from two moderators, and Jim…there is no conspiracy or bias towards any group, railroaders or non-railroaders, in essence, the It guy got poe’d by something, (plus some heat from upstairs) and told the moderators to censor the railroaders to shut them up, and that’s the solution, and the orders the mods followed.
Could the mods have blocked the instigator?
Yup, but they were ordered not to, for whatever reason chosen, which I am not privy to….and like most folks, they did what they were ordered to do.
Two of them quit because of it.
Jesus guy….you seriously think there is a conspiracy to favor one particular group…here?
On a train forum?
I doubt other than myself, Jeff , Larry (tree) and Carl that any of the railroaders here have ever used their full or real name, no one at Kalmbach knows who they are or what carrier they work for, if any…they are just screen names on a forum.
For there to be a conspiracy, there has to be some form of profit for the conspirators, some benefit they receive.
So, what’s the win for the railroaders?
The ability to tell non railroaders they that they, the rails, know more about railroading than the non-rails?
Well, we already have that, by benefit of our jobs, so that’s not much incentive to create a conspiracy.
Of course, Kalmbach also has to get something worthwhile to entice them to participate in this conspiracy, so whats the win for them?
In fact, I would opine that the folks at Kalmbach have met more of the fans face to face than the rails, and “know” those folks a lot better and more personally that they any of the rails here.
With the exception of mudchicken, whose profession has managed to make his path cross theirs at a few professional events, and maybe Carl Shaver, who happens to be one of those folks who would go to the Kalmbach office and introduce himself… (Shy doesn’t describe Carl at all) I would be surprised if there was more than one or two of the railroaders here who have ever met someone from Kalmbach.
I certainly haven’t, and with the exception of a few emails, have had no contact with them.
Minus real names, dates and verifiable facts, Kalmbach can’t profit from anything any of the railroaders bring to this place in any manner, and no, having railroaders here makes little difference to the popularity of this place, in case you haven’t noticed, this forum is populated by a small core group of rails and non-rails, not to many new faces/screen names show up here, so the railroaders are certainly not a “draw” for this place, heaven help Kalmbach if we were!
So, if Kalmbach as a company doesn’t gain anything from this conspiracy, then the moderators must have gotten something, right?
Not sure what that would be, seeing as how Murphy had already quit being a mod, and Jeff Wimberley quit over this, as did another mod, so I doubt they “won” anything other than heartburn and headaches….and the folks who were moderated, most of whom were railroaders, I don’t see where we won anything either.
So, again, if there is a conspiracy or a bias, who wins, and what do they win?
On the other hand, if Kalmbach wants to send me a big check, or maybe a few years free subscriptions, I might be willing to work something out!
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Johnny
DEGGESTY, I'm not sure why you can't get line feeds, and thank you for at least tagging your paragraph breaks, but have you thought about composing in notepad, or other text editor or word processor, then copying and pasting to your reply?
edblysardthis forum is populated by a small core group of rails and non-rails
I'm pretty sure that railroaders, unlike astronauts scientists and doctors, don't get much respect from the general population just because of their profession. If that's true then I feel it's incredibly ironic that rails should have as much animosity towards off-the-rails as some folks seem to see in some of these posts.
By the way, I haven't been on trains.com fora regularly for most of the years since I joined, but rather have mostly used the competing site railroad.net. The moderation here actually seems more to my liking than there, but don't worry, I'm sure if I dwell here long enough I'll find something more not to like.
On that other site I often saw the pattern where the instigator seemingly went unpunished, but the moderators seemed to dole out there warnings to the responders who stooped to the instigator's level, or would use the nucular :) option and warn everybody "I'll lock this thread if you don't behave", followed by a redundant "I've locked this thread", I guess because the lock icon wasn't clear enough.
I used that site mainly because I liked its presentation better, they had general, Amtrak, NJTransit and SEPTA fora, which were the main ones in which I lurked. Here the only ones in which I'm interested are general and transit, so there seemed to be more quantity to read there than here.
As you might have guessed I felt I was on the wrong end of some of those responder punishing sessions, and a couple of times would post "I'm sick of this and quitting, you won't have Patrick Boylan to kick around". And I'd actually stay away for several months, only to get lured back again.
The last few times I walked away from the other site I didn't bother to say I was going. I've always gotten amused when people would post "this is the last I'll say on the subject" only to make many subsequent posts.
So for good or bad, I've returned to my first railroad related internet venue.
By the way, my real name is Patrick Boylan. I've thought of changing my handle to it, just can't figure how to do it. I probably should send a moderator a private message. My avatar at least is of the real me and my real wife, who tolerates my many weird hobbies, railfanning being the craziest in her opinion.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
>>
edblysard For there to be a conspiracy, there has to be some form of profit for the conspirators, some benefit they receive. So, what’s the win for the railroaders?
Your entire post was very good, and for the record you are not the railroad employee in my earlier example. Though you and i have not always agreed, we have kept our differences civil.
Regarding your comments above, I'd like to share a couple observations.
Foremost, it's not at all uncommon for a group of people having common goals to work together towards their collective benefit, and the mere fact that they do so is no proof of a conspiracy, nor should someone who witnesses the collective effort be branded a conspiracy theorist for simply stating the obvious. One member here evidently finds their position more supportable if they can brand their opponent(s) as "conspiracy nuts". Just a cheap parlor trick, not much more.
Secondly I think that the word "value" is more appropriate than "profit" as you used it above, since value can take many forms, including control. Control might indeed be very valuable if someone has been placed in a position of responsibility, and are not entirely secure in that capacity.
cheers.
Convicted OneYour entire post was very good, and for the record you are not the railroad employee in my earlier example.
Oooh, ooh, oooh, pick me, pick me!!!! I know, I know!!!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
gardendance DEGGESTY, I'm not sure why you can't get line feeds, and thank you for at least tagging your paragraph breaks, but have you thought about composing in notepad, or other text editor or word processor, then copying and pasting to your reply?
Johnny when I got windows 8 and again when upgraded to 8.1 had to select compatibility mode for trains only don't remember 8.0 but 8.1 allows through a window to select which web sites needing comp. That solved my problem
You're welcome. And by the way, I don't expect anyone to respect me any more just because I'm a microsoft access visual basic and sql server programmer.
Okay,
Substituting value for profit, the question still stands.
What value can anyone person or “group” gain?
Control, as you suggested?
If so, wanting to have control of this forum should be an indication of someone or some group having very little life outside of their laptop.
Truly, if anyone here has become so obsessed with this place they stoop to subterfuge and “conspiracy” to gain even a tiny bit of supposed control, they must be a very lonely person.
Yes, sometimes people “group” together to achieve a common goal, often without even knowing each other outside of that common ground, but again, here on this forum, to what gain?
An example I can think of would be Mike Sol and Futuremodal…
At the outset, I doubt they knew each other, but by the end of their tenure here, I am quite sure they were best buds.
Both were, in my studied opinion Looney Tune material, and each backed the other up, regardless of what the subject was, so in a small way, yes they were “conspirators” of sorts.
Other than being allowed to rant, rave, insult and offend, the only benefit or value I can see either receiving was the chance to feed their respective egos.
They certainly had no “control” over anything here, so…
In any debate, at some point in time, both parties have to agree that one or the other will concede the point, or both agree that neither can support their respective position to a win, and the debate is a draw.
With some posters here, that never happens.
Once they place their idea, invention or point of view out there, no matter what follows, they will attempt to verbally beat anyone who disagrees with them into submission or agreement.
The “Yes, but” threads come to mind.
After that many people offer a negative view or response to a give idea or concept, at some point the poster should have simply withdrawn from the debate, acknowledged defeat or declared a draw, but instead, we had goodness knows how many “yes, but” replies in an attempt to either force the opposition into agreeing simply to shut him up, or to continue the debate as an argument, because the original poster likes the attention.
About the only “control” he had was in how many times and in what manner he could re-state his original position, and of course, how many times he and his “casual co-conspirator” could hammer the abuse button when someone raised a point he could not rebut.
Sadly, he was rewarded for his immature actions, those that disagreed with him were “moderated” and like Pavlov’s dog he developed a reaction to a given stimuli, that being that when others will not conceded to his new version of “yes but” and agree with him to shut him up, he again resorts to beating the abuse button to death.
Oh, and by the way, pick zugman, he knows the answer.
gardendance You're welcome. And by the way, I don't expect anyone to respect me any more just because I'm a microsoft access visual basic and sql server programmer.
With past experience with Basic, Qbasic, Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, and large routers under my belt (and fluent in a couple of them - or I was), you've got my respect...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
edblysardTake the old issue Bucky/Euclid is trying to dredge up…I received the same basic facts Norm presented from two moderators, and Jim…there is no conspiracy or bias towards any group, railroaders or non-railroaders, in essence, the It guy got poe’d by something, (plus some heat from upstairs) and told the moderators to censor the railroaders to shut them up, and that’s the solution, and the orders the mods followed. Could the mods have blocked the instigator? Yup, but they were ordered not to, for whatever reason chosen, which I am not privy to….and like most folks, they did what they were ordered to do.
I assume that you are referring to me as being the instigator, and you seem to be saying that you and other railroaders were the victims of my instigation and wrongly disciplined while I was not disciplined. And you act puzzled as to why this injustice occurred.
However, the fact is that the instigators in this case were the railroaders, who mobbed the thread in violation of forum rules, to provoke trouble in order to disrupt the thread or get it locked. There was no misdirected justice where the innocent were punished while the “instigator” was let off due to some sort of privilege, as you say.
You can insist on calling me the instigator, but it is relative to your perception, and you are the only one in control of that. I did not start the thread to make anybody angry, and offering strong opinions does not violate any forum rule.
I think the Lac Megantic wreck was one of the most interesting and significant events on so many different levels. But others might see it simply as a black eye for railroads, and hope it will be quickly forgotten. Nevertheless, I think that that wreck has had, and will continue to have a far greater effect on the railroad and oil industry than anything in history. It immediately caused rules and laws to be changed in Canada. It spawned the current oil-by-rail debate. It energizes the anti-fossil fuel, anti-fracking, anti-oil sand activism. It has the industry reaching out for new ideas, inventions, and methods for making oil shipping safer.
Shoes have been dropping all over the place, and there are more to come. More laws and regulations will be introduced in both U.S. and Canada. The lawsuits will go forward. Likewise with the prosecution of the oil train engineer and two others. The accident report has yet to be released. So we have civil suits, criminal charges, and an official report of the wreck and its cause that will all be pointing to the same issues, and probably competing with each other to some extent. The issues of how the train had been secured that night and how it had been secured there in the past will be deeply explored. TSA of Canada will have to explain while they have publically deemed their securement Rule 112 inadequate, and yet did nothing to fix it.
I think it is fair to say that, in general, railroaders know more about railroading than non-railroaders. However I do not accept the idea that as a governing principle, that should give railroaders the last say in every point of difference, and entitle them to feel persecuted if they are denied that assumed right. I think it is silly to assume that with an event and fallout as complex as the Lac Megantic wreck, conclusions made by non-railroaders are invalid simply because a railroader says so. The knowledge to evaluate such an event comes from many sources besides just one’s occupation. I also believe that people can gain knowledge of railroading in ways other than being a railroad employee.
If you look at the Lac Megantic thread, you will see an early-on assumption by railroaders that I should not have the knowledge to analyze and conclude as I was doing. One after another, you will see them insist that I was wrong and should stop talking about it. And next, they started adding insults and calling for the thread to be locked. I never returned the insults. I was told not to by the moderator. I was told by the moderator that I should, “just let them play in the traffic until they do themselves in.”
Eventually, these railroaders and some of their civilian defenders were filled with resentment over the fact that I would not accept that I was wrong about almost everything simply because they had said so. It made no difference what I said to defend my point of view. The aggrieved were beyond the point of listening. They even made up new points that they disagreed with and then claimed that I had asserted those points when I had not.
Obviously, we did not have the facts to draw full conclusions. All we had were the news reports and our knowledge of the subject to interpret that news. My whole point was to develop ideas and conclusions that extended beyond where the news reporting left off, even if full conclusions could not be reached. In many cases, the news media reports offer more conclusions than they realize due to their limited knowledge of the subject. There was a lot of ground to cover in illustrating those unstated elements.
You mention the basic makeup of this forum as a core of railroaders and non-railroaders. What is easy to forget is the number of non-registered forum readers who are an invisible backdrop participating in this forum. While the Lac Megantic thread seemed to be so irksome to a good portion of our little core of forum members, the view count suggested that it was being read by a far larger group of people. At one point for several days, it was getting about 300 views overnight. I would look at who was on the forum say around midnight, and most of the time there was nobody who posts on this general forum. There were at most, maybe six people on the Kalmbach forums.
So it seems highly unlikely that those 300 overnight views were coming from people here who were regularly commenting in the thread or even just registered members not commenting. I see that the thread has even picked up another 6,000 views since being locked last September. So I suspect there was a fair amount of interest in the substance among the greater group of participants despite all the friction that was being generated in our little core group.
Euclid edblysardTake the old issue Bucky/Euclid is trying to dredge up…I received the same basic facts Norm presented from two moderators, and Jim…there is no conspiracy or bias towards any group, railroaders or non-railroaders, in essence, the It guy got poe’d by something, (plus some heat from upstairs) and told the moderators to censor the railroaders to shut them up, and that’s the solution, and the orders the mods followed. Could the mods have blocked the instigator? Yup, but they were ordered not to, for whatever reason chosen, which I am not privy to….and like most folks, they did what they were ordered to do. Ed, I assume that you are referring to me as being the instigator, and you seem to be saying that you and other railroaders were the victims of my instigation and wrongly disciplined while I was not disciplined. And you act puzzled as to why this injustice occurred. However, the fact is that the instigators in this case were the railroaders, who mobbed the thread in violation of forum rules, to provoke trouble in order to disrupt the thread or get it locked. There was no misdirected justice where the innocent were punished while the “instigator” was let off due to some sort of privilege, as you say. I am not a rail, yet several of my posts in that thread were deleted. Mobbed the forum? Called you down on misinformation and speculation would be more accurate. You can insist on calling me the instigator, but it is relative to your perception, and you are the only one in control of that. I did not start the thread to make anybody angry, and offering strong opinions does not violate any forum rule. If you were not running to Steve Otte, who was? It certainly wasn't the railroaders. It was them who were being heavily moderated. You were allowed to post almost anything you wished. I think the Lac Megantic wreck was one of the most interesting and significant events on so many different levels. But others might see it simply as a black eye for railroads, and hope it will be quickly forgotten. Nevertheless, I think that that wreck has had, and will continue to have a far greater effect on the railroad and oil industry than anything in history. It immediately caused rules and laws to be changed in Canada. It spawned the current oil-by-rail debate. It energizes the anti-fossil fuel, anti-fracking, anti-oil sand activism. It has the industry reaching out for new ideas, inventions, and methods for making oil shipping safer. Yes, the Lac Megantic wreck had a huge effect on the railroads, and the environmentalists made hay of it, but in comparison to some other oil related disasters it would rate perhaps a three on a scale of one to ten. Shoes have been dropping all over the place, and there are more to come. More laws and regulations will be introduced in both U.S. and Canada. The lawsuits will go forward. Likewise with the prosecution of the oil train engineer and two others. The accident report has yet to be released. So we have civil suits, criminal charges, and an official report of the wreck and its cause that will all be pointing to the same issues, and probably competing with each other to some extent. The issues of how the train had been secured that night and how it had been secured there in the past will be deeply explored. TSA of Canada will have to explain while they have publically deemed their securement Rule 112 inadequate, and yet did nothing to fix it. I think it is fair to say that, in general, railroaders know more about railroading than non-railroaders. However I do not accept the idea that as a governing principle, that should give railroaders the last say in every point of difference, and entitle them to feel persecuted if they are denied that assumed right. I think it is silly to assume that with an event and fallout as complex as the Lac Megantic wreck, conclusions made by non-railroaders are invalid simply because a railroader says so. The knowledge to evaluate such an event comes from many sources besides just one’s occupation. I also believe that people can gain knowledge of railroading in ways other than being a railroad employee. If you look at the Lac Megantic thread, you will see an early-on assumption by railroaders that I should not have the knowledge to analyze and conclude as I was doing. One after another, you will see them insist that I was wrong and should stop talking about it. And next, they started adding insults and calling for the thread to be locked. I never returned the insults. I was told not to by the moderator. I was told by the moderator that I should, “just let them play in the traffic until they do themselves in.” Eventually, these railroaders and some of their civilian defenders were filled with resentment over the fact that I would not accept that I was wrong about almost everything simply because they had said so. It made no difference what I said to defend my point of view. The aggrieved were beyond the point of listening. They even made up new points that they disagreed with and then claimed that I had asserted those points when I had not. That sentence sounds like it came from a politician. Sorry to have to phrase it that way but it reveals a lack of maturity and willingness to take responsibility for your own actions. Obviously, we did not have the facts to draw full conclusions. All we had were the news reports and our knowledge of the subject to interpret that news. My whole point was to develop ideas and conclusions that extended beyond where the news reporting left off, even if full conclusions could not be reached. In many cases, the news media reports offer more conclusions than they realize due to their limited knowledge of the subject. There was a lot of ground to cover in illustrating those unstated elements. You mention the basic makeup of this forum as a core of railroaders and non-railroaders. What is easy to forget is the number of non-registered forum readers who are an invisible backdrop participating in this forum. While the Lac Megantic thread seemed to be so irksome to a good portion of our little core of forum members, the view count suggested that it was being read by a far larger group of people. At one point for several days, it was getting about 300 views overnight. I would look at who was on the forum say around midnight, and most of the time there was nobody who posts on this general forum. There were at most, maybe six people on the Kalmbach forums. So it seems highly unlikely that those 300 overnight views were coming from people here who were regularly commenting in the thread or even just registered members not commenting. I see that the thread has even picked up another 6,000 views since being locked last September. So I suspect there was a fair amount of interest in the substance among the greater group of participants despite all the friction that was being generated in our little core group.
I am not a rail, yet several of my posts in that thread were deleted. Mobbed the forum? Called you down on misinformation and speculation would be more accurate.
If you were not running to Steve Otte, who was? It certainly wasn't the railroaders. It was them who were being heavily moderated. You were allowed to post almost anything you wished.
Yes, the Lac Megantic wreck had a huge effect on the railroads, and the environmentalists made hay of it, but in comparison to some other oil related disasters it would rate perhaps a three on a scale of one to ten.
That sentence sounds like it came from a politician. Sorry to have to phrase it that way but it reveals a lack of maturity and willingness to take responsibility for your own actions.
I apologize if I've been harsh, but it appears you are transferring blame for your own actions. I say that in the manner of constructive criticism not condemnation.
Norm
Norm48327I apologize if I've been harsh, but it appears you are transferring blame for your own actions. I say that in the manner of constructive criticism not condemnation.
Yes, but...
EuclidI was told by the moderator that I should, “just let them play in the traffic until they do themselves in.”
The only person that did themself in was you.
.
Norm,
There is no need to apologize. You are free to look at it any way you want. I do not take your comments as constructive criticism because I believe you are wrong on all points.
As I said before, there were no posts removed from that thread by the moderator that were not off topic, nonsense, gibberish. There are examples of posts there today where people expressed strong disagreement with me. No posts of that nature were removed. Most of this removal of nonsense posts happened toward the end of the thread. This is what the moderator said on the forum during that phase:
“OK guys, today alone I removed ten off topic posts from this thread and despite having been advised several times to keep the thread on topic. It's the same people every time (you know who you are) that are making the off topic postings. Now I'm telling you again, keep the thread on topic as per the subject title.”
edblysard So, if Kalmbach as a company doesn’t gain anything from this conspiracy, then the moderators must have gotten something, right? Not sure what that would be, seeing as how Murphy had already quit being a mod, and Jeff Wimberley quit over this, as did another mod, so I doubt they “won” anything other than heartburn and headaches….and the folks who were moderated, most of whom were railroaders, I don’t see where we won anything either. So, again, if there is a conspiracy or a bias, who wins, and what do they win?
There appears to be some revisionist history in all the verbiage of exchanges. 1. The person who suggested a conspiracy was the former moderator who generally sides with a subset of the railroaders, not an outsider. 2. Jeff Wimberly, the moderator, was quite aware of the various disruptive tactics used by this subset of railroaders to get threads locked where they apparently did not like criticism of railroads, whether implicit or direct.
I would hope that we can not only be civil in our posts but also tolerant of disagreements with each other and neither make personal attacks nor take criticism personally.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Euclid,
I guess this means you are “coming out” and publicly admitting you are the former Bucyrus?
Great, but I am wondering…
If you are so proud of your former self’s actions, why didn’t you simply come back as Bucyrus?
That’s said, you are, by your own words, assuming.
I was speaking/replying to Convicted One, and speaking in generalities, using the “Yes but” threads only as an example of some posters actions, but if you think you resemble said poster and wish to take ownership of those examples, by all means, enjoy.
Larry, exactly, I see you grasped the last three paragraphs of my last post.
Lac Megantic, outside the rail industry, fits right about the level you said, for a oil related accident on a 10 scale, 3 maybe 4, but inside the industry, it is like Graniteville and the Californias UP/Metrolink accidents, it has become somewhat of a event horizon, in that the rules and regs that followed are truly the point of no return, in that they will not be rescinded but only added to, there is no going back from them, so we might as well embrace them and make them fit what we do.
Euclid, again….
Since there is no way to debate with you, and, as a side note, you slipped into a dance you were not invited to, and as you seem intent on turning everything into an argument, with yourself as the center of attention, I will retire from the floor, and leave you to joust with yourself, once again, enjoy.
Euclid Norm, There is no need to apologize. You are free to look at it any way you want. I do not take your comments as constructive criticism because I believe you are wrong on all points. As I said before, there were no posts removed from that thread by the moderator that were not off topic, nonsense, gibberish. There are examples of posts there today where people expressed strong disagreement with me. No posts of that nature were removed. Most of this removal of nonsense posts happened toward the end of the thread. This is what the moderator said on the forum during that phase: “OK guys, today alone I removed ten off topic posts from this thread and despite having been advised several times to keep the thread on topic. It's the same people every time (you know who you are) that are making the off topic postings. Now I'm telling you again, keep the thread on topic as per the subject title.”
We have agreed to disagree. (Clink)
Yes I know you are speaking obliquely. This seems to have begun when Murphy Siding confirmed what Norm had said about moderators being told to favor the railroaders when they engaged in disputes with non-railroaders. I do not know if that is true, but I am very surprised if it is true. Then you said something to the effect that you felt it was just the opposite. As an example, you brought up a “dust up” where you felt that a non-railroader was given favoritism over the railroaders by a moderator.
You continued speaking obliquely, but several points you made about that dust up let me to believe you were referring to the one over the Lac Megantic thread last September. In any case, whatever dust up you are referring to, your reference to the “instigator” going unpunished while unjustly punishing the railroaders is exactly what you claimed had happened in your letter to Jim Wrinn which you posted after you and others had been placed on moderation for disruptive posting in the Lac Megantic thread. So all together, it seemed to me that you were referring to that dust up.
But if you are referring to some other dust up and instigator, so be it. I can’t guess what you are referring to. Perhaps it was the waving dust up or the fog dust up. In any case, I see no evidence that moderators have ever given preferential treatment to non-railroaders when they disagree with railroaders, as you say you have seen. It certainly did not happen during the Lac Megantic thread dust up.
Whether the opposite is true, I have no way of knowing. But I am very surprised that Norm mentioned it as being a fact, and am astounded that Murphy Siding confirmed it.
I am not so much surprised if it is true, but surprised that those two mentioned it.
EuclidWhether the opposite is true, I have no way of knowing. But I am very surprised that Norm mentioned it as being a fact, and am astounded that Murphy Siding confirmed it.
There seems to be an attempt to alter what happened with that thread, but the record is clear. One railroader expressed disgust with the moderator's actions in placing some on moderation and removed many/most of his own posts. But later he returned. And the thread was locked and the juvenile, off-topic posts by the railroaders were removed.
And let's not pretend. The sarcastic references to "yes, but" refer not to Convicted One, nor to generic posters, but to Bucyrus/Bucky/Euclid. Whether based on history or not, they are rude.
Dear God, people. Imagine how this would read to an outsider.
Just to see how much this thread has deteriorated, I went back to re-read Murphy's original post. It's amazing how a straightforward and sensible statement and request could trigger so much animosity. There was nothing controversial there in my opinion.
Something I heard many years ago stuck in my mind. (And no, it didn't die of loneliness.) If you let someone make you mad, you are letting him/her control you. If he or she is controlling how you think and act, they win.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Wild zontargs couldn't make me go back and reread this thread.
http://search.dilbert.com/search?p=R&srid=S3-USESD01&lbc=dilbert&w=*&url=http%3a%2f%2fdilbert.com%2fstrips%2fcomic%2f1995-02-01%2f&rk=3&uid=720489836&sid=2&ts=custom&rsc=N4CrF48sDqPddL72&method=and&startdate=19950130&enddate=19950723&isort=date%20rev&view=list&filter=type%3acomic
Winning a flame war "somehow elevates my rank in the herd and improves my mating possibilities"
Norm48327 Euclid Norm, There is no need to apologize. You are free to look at it any way you want. I do not take your comments as constructive criticism because I believe you are wrong on all points. As I said before, there were no posts removed from that thread by the moderator that were not off topic, nonsense, gibberish. There are examples of posts there today where people expressed strong disagreement with me. No posts of that nature were removed. Most of this removal of nonsense posts happened toward the end of the thread. This is what the moderator said on the forum during that phase: “OK guys, today alone I removed ten off topic posts from this thread and despite having been advised several times to keep the thread on topic. It's the same people every time (you know who you are) that are making the off topic postings. Now I'm telling you again, keep the thread on topic as per the subject title.” We have agreed to disagree. (Clink)
Who give a rats patoot about threads wandering 'off topic' - that is the beauty of the net - it can take you places you would never have thought of. People and life are funny like that!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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