Phoebe Vet By what possible line of logic do you assign the time in line to get into the quiet car to security? If you want to count the time in line at the door to the platform then you must also count the time waiting your turn at the airport gate. I do not have a disdain for flying. I have a disdain for being treated like a criminal.
By what possible line of logic do you assign the time in line to get into the quiet car to security?
If you want to count the time in line at the door to the platform then you must also count the time waiting your turn at the airport gate.
I do not have a disdain for flying. I have a disdain for being treated like a criminal.
Had you read my post carefully, you would have noted that I included the wait time for the train at Union Station and the wait time at BWI. The wait time at Union Station was longer because the persons responsible for security did not appear to have a clue about what they were supposed to do. The total wait time and hassle was much less at the airport. Unlike Amtrak's seemingly disorganized boarding procedures at Union Station, which has passengers creating a line that snakes onto the concourse, thereby blocking the free flow of other persons on the station concourse, there was no lining up at the airport gate because all the seats are assigned in advance. Like about 15 minutes on average less.
I don't know whether my experience can be extrapolated to others. I did not do a scientific survey, i.e. valid statistical sample, which is necessary to project the results to the population within the parameters of the statistical construct. Accordingly, I am not making any wild claims about the experience of others or the population as a whole.
zugmann Phoebe Vet: This coversation has run it's course. I'm out of here. Ladies and gentlemen, Phoebe Vet has left the thread.
Phoebe Vet: This coversation has run it's course. I'm out of here.
This coversation has run it's course. I'm out of here.
Ladies and gentlemen, Phoebe Vet has left the thread.
Praise be! Hopefully everyone will drop the sloganeering and rants. And base their views on evidence. Projecting a personal experience or view on to the population as a whole is invalid.
To determine what the population believes about a subject, one needs to take a valid statistical sample of the views of the people in the sample, understanding in the process how the results can be biased by a poorly constructed survey and analysis of the results. Otherwise, claiming that the American people are this or that is, well, amateurish at best and down right dishonest at worst.
Phoebe Vet This coversation has run it's course. I'm out of here.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
You don't need scientific information, just open your eyes and look around. Guns are selling like McDonalds hamburgers, people actually support the foolishness at the airport, people are afraid to let their kids go to the park without adult supervision for fear that some evil sex offender will get them, A registered sex offender just got arrested for attending church, People are being harassed for taking pictures of things that are in plain sight where anyone can see them. The approach to most schools looks like rush hour because so many people are afraid to let their kids either ride the school bus or walk. We have a military budget larger than the next 6 countries combined but both politicians and citizens want it expanded. You can't get into a theme park or the museums on the Mall in DC without getting your bags x-rayed or looked into by a guard.
We are definitely paranoid.
Phoebe Vet Just to clarify, I am not against REASONABLE security. At Union Station in DC, uniformed police officers, some of them with bomb sniffing dogs, patrol the station. They do not confront people unless they, or the dogs, see something suspicious. The only ID procedure is that you hold up your picture ID and your ticket as you walk through the door to the platform. THAT is reasonable security. Treating everyone like a criminal in case there might be a criminal somewhere is bizarre, paranoid, and against everything the USA has stood for since it was founded.
Just to clarify, I am not against REASONABLE security.
At Union Station in DC, uniformed police officers, some of them with bomb sniffing dogs, patrol the station. They do not confront people unless they, or the dogs, see something suspicious. The only ID procedure is that you hold up your picture ID and your ticket as you walk through the door to the platform.
THAT is reasonable security.
Treating everyone like a criminal in case there might be a criminal somewhere is bizarre, paranoid, and against everything the USA has stood for since it was founded.
I remember when one could board the train at Washington's Union Station without having to show any identification. I remember when a rail buff in New York could go down the east stairs at Penn Station and watch the Seaboard Airline's Silver Meteor leave for Miami. Using this experience as a guide, I could claim that the current procedures at Union Station and Penn Station are unreasonable.
Last week I showed and id and ticket to board my train from Washington's Union Station to Baltimore. The total time to clear security, given the uncontrolled lines at Union Station, was approximately two minutes, once the line starting to move. However, if one counts the time required to stand in line to get a seat in the quiet car, the total time was approximately 20 minutes.
Coming home from Baltimore on Southwest Airlines, I showed my id and ticket to the TSA. I took off my shoes, emptied my pockets, and passed through security in less than a minute. All up it took me about five minutes for the whole process, including putting my shoes back on, etc. There was no standing in line at the gate. All the seats were assigned in advance. All up the process at the airport was less of a hassle than the process at Union Station.
The procedures, given the risks, which most people would recognize are dramatically different for a railroad train than an airliner, are reasonable. Amongst other things risk managers understand the importance of fitting the controls, i.e. screening, to the magnitude of the risk.
Oh, from time to time the TSA makes a mistake. It hits the press, and immediately folks like you project it to the population as a whole, when in fact the number of over reactions on the part of the TSA is minute.
To describe your views as extreme would be mild. Mercifully, as someone has pointed out, you are not responsible for any form of transport security. Given your disdain for flying, as expressed on several occasions, I don't understand why you get so worked up about airport security. After all, it is not likely to touch you.
Motley Terrorism on the railroads is a real threat. Ah London... Everybody complains of civil liberties being taken, until something happens. Then after a railraod gets bombed, everyone will complain why didnt' they have securty. What the hell was our guys doing. That we pay them to protect us. What, so a security guard says hey no pictures. So what, go someplace else to take pics. There are plenty of other spots for railfans to take photos. I agree, we are a paranoid nation, but look what got us here. They came to our country and took thousands of lives.
Terrorism on the railroads is a real threat. Ah London...
Everybody complains of civil liberties being taken, until something happens. Then after a railraod gets bombed, everyone will complain why didnt' they have securty. What the hell was our guys doing. That we pay them to protect us.
What, so a security guard says hey no pictures. So what, go someplace else to take pics. There are plenty of other spots for railfans to take photos.
I agree, we are a paranoid nation, but look what got us here. They came to our country and took thousands of lives.
If you or anyone else posting to these forums have any scientific data to support the notion that "we are a paranoid nation", I would be happy to listen. Otherwise, claiming that Americans are paranoid is absurd. Your friends, who probably number fewer than 10, may be paranoid. But projecting their views on to the population as a whole does not wash.
Frankly, I am tired of people making unsupported claims. I gave that up when I was a sophomore. In high school!
PNWRMNM Rich, You are a prime example of how totalitarian regimes take over, bit by bit. You, who I will guess are not over 40 years old, probably do not remember the days when you could freely walk onto an air liner. I do and I remember the first hijacking, D. B. Cooper, in the Pacific Northwest. Frankly, I would feel better if the entire flight crew were packing .45's with hard plastic anti personnel rounds and I could carry on board with those same rounds. That would be at least as effective as what we are doing now, would cost less than 1% of what we are spending for those morons at TSA, and would cost no one their liberty. Unfortunately governments always want to restrict and control the population. By the way what "real and demonstrated" terrorist threat to railroads have I missed? Mac
Rich,
You are a prime example of how totalitarian regimes take over, bit by bit. You, who I will guess are not over 40 years old, probably do not remember the days when you could freely walk onto an air liner. I do and I remember the first hijacking, D. B. Cooper, in the Pacific Northwest.
Frankly, I would feel better if the entire flight crew were packing .45's with hard plastic anti personnel rounds and I could carry on board with those same rounds. That would be at least as effective as what we are doing now, would cost less than 1% of what we are spending for those morons at TSA, and would cost no one their liberty.
Unfortunately governments always want to restrict and control the population.
By the way what "real and demonstrated" terrorist threat to railroads have I missed?
Mac
Pistol packing crew and passengers! Wow! It is not difficult to imagine the consequences if gun totting passengers open fire on a suspected terrorist. If they are like most civilians, they would have many more misses than hits. And there is a good chance that they would shoot a number of passengers, as well as each other, before they figured out that there was no threat.
A couple of weeks ago there was a shoot-out on the Texas Eagle in Dallas. The police, who we are told are supposedly professionals, shot a bad guy who had a pistol and drew it. In the process the police, again supposedly trained to respond appropriately, hit the bad guy and a bystander.
The bad guy drew the suspicion of the police whilst he was in the Dallas Union Station. They suspected he was carrying drugs. Instead of stopping him in the station, where he could have been isolated easily, they waited until he boarded the train before approaching him. To repeat these are supposedly highly trained police officers. I would hate to think how gun totting civilians, who have had little if any real training in firearms, would over react on a crowed airplane.
PNWRMNM Rich, The first rule of hiring a consultant is to tell them what answer you want. If you have even been in the culture of Washington DC you know that. Mac
The first rule of hiring a consultant is to tell them what answer you want. If you have even been in the culture of Washington DC you know that.
Mac,
The Rand Corporation is not a consulting firm. It is a nonprofit institution that helps to improve policy and decision making through independent research and analysis. It focuses on issues such as health, education, national security, international affairs, etc. It operates independtly of political and commercial pressures. It is a totally independent and nonpartisan organization that employs a research staff of some of the world's preeminent minds.
Don't be so quick to put it down.
Rich
Alton Junction
Ed,
Elloquent and accurate as always.
tdmidget And for morons they're doing pretty well: Transportation Security Officer (TSO) Quick View | More Like This Do you desire to protect American interests and secure our Nation while building a meaningful and rewarding career? If so, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is calling. DHS components work collectively to prevent terrorism, secure borders, enforce and administer immigration laws, safeguard c Agency: Transportation Security Administration Location: Blountville,Tennessee Salary: $29,131.00 to $43,697.00 / Per Year Open Period: Friday, December 16, 2011 to Monday, January 16, 2012 Same pay rate in the lower 48
And for morons they're doing pretty well:
Do you desire to protect American interests and secure our Nation while building a meaningful and rewarding career? If so, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is calling. DHS components work collectively to prevent terrorism, secure borders, enforce and administer immigration laws, safeguard c
Agency:
Location:
Salary:
Open Period:
Friday, December 16, 2011 to Monday, January 16, 2012
Same pay rate in the lower 48
I think I know how we can take a really big bite out of the deficit. Charlotte Douglas Airport alone has 500 of these guys and millions of dollars worth of x-ray machines. That is at just ONE airport.
I am going to jump in here before this gets locked.
Yup, I am too young to remember WWII, but my father served in the US Navy, from 1939 on through the early 70s, so I grew up with the stuff...
Sure, the US detained and incarcerated the Nisi, and oddly, did nothing to the German immigrants, which would have included my grandfather, and just as odd, no credible incident of the Nisi ever participating in espionage or sabotage is found, but several instances of the German National Socialist Party(silly forum wont allow Naz*) landing groups of saboteurs abound, along with those wonderful masters of the constitutional right to assemble, the American Bund, who marched in goose stepping rallies, displayed the Swastika, portraits of Adolf Hitler, and managed to survive well into the 50s.
Our local director of the TSA rail security detail is quite willing to talk, he in fact loves to BS more than anyone I know.
Want to know where the 6 rail inspectors that work under him came from?
The FDA...4 of them were meat /poultry inspectors, one was a security guard at their office, and one is a college grad hired off the street, whose father in law is a city councilman here.
He was the chief inspector and officer manager, whose main duties were administration and such.
He (in his own words) would probably end up shooting himself by accident if he ever had to draw his sidearm.
He will happily explain that he thinks his job is great, he does not ever expect to find a terrorist here, nor does he expect to find a IED on a railcar...as he says, as long as the government tells him to check for TIH cars and keep track of them, that's exactly what he plans on doing until he retires in 5 years, as long as the paycheck keep coming in and don't bounce, he will pretend to keep checking for home grown terrorist.
He has pulled his sidearm from its holster 3 times in the last six years, each time to clean it.
He even asked me if ammo has a shelf life and can it expire...(yes to both questions by the way)
I feel no more secure now than I did before 9/11.
In fact, I fear our government more, and fear that my liberty will be encroached on more and more above and beyond any fear I have of a terrorist attack.
The Salem Witch trials should have taught us a lesson, as should the enforced relocation of the Nisi...if you look long enough and hard enough for witches, you can convince yourself there is a witch under every rock.
And yes, by the way, some putz at the TSA reads this forum, and about six other railroad forums, every day as part of his duties, he is looking for potential suspects gathering information.
He also reads aviation forums and ship forums looking for the "odd" questions by members who are not well known.
You tax dollars at work..yes, big brother is watching and reading too.
Folks, the fight isn't here...the 9/11 attacks were based on luck, a real cruddy plan that just happened to work, and the one thing the bad guys knew from the start...no one would try and stop them once they began, they expected everyone on the planes to sit and wait for someone, anyone else to do something, which they did, except on small group of guys on one flight.
They counted on the passengers to be meek, and the pilots to be weak, and it worked.
Come on, they had box cutters and nail clipper for gosh sakes...
As for TSA security at air ports, trust me, if I has a Bic pen, I could kill you...in fact, I could kill you with no weapon at all, or find something on board to use...it isn't about what we carry with us, it's about the person and his determination, if he is a fanatic, he can bring down a plane with no weapon at all and nothing the TSA will ever do can stop that.
Again, the fight isn't here, its over there.
The Israelis could teach us a thing or two about airport security.
Most passengers boarding flights there are never searched or questioned or even know they are being watched, and passengers will tell you they feel secure all the same.
That's because Israeli security is trained, and trained well, to go about their business with minimum interference to the passenger or operations.
And it works.
Every time you allow one of your civil liberties and your civil rights to be removed or infringed upon, even in the name of national security, this nation, your nation become less secure, less strong and less able to defend itself, because the people being harassed and detained isn't the bad guys, it us, the citizens, and as soon as we start asking citizens to start spying on each other and creating internal turmoil and distrust, then the bad guys will have won again.
After all, it's our way of life, our values and our prosperity they hate and despise and want to destroy, and it seems we are more than happy to help them achieve their goal.
23 17 46 11
I have to go into the courthouse every month to pay alimony.
A few years ago, an idiot criminal got hold of a pen-knife and stabbed the Assistant District Attorney in the back... Thankfully the Asst. DA was not seriously injured (they had to make him go to the hospital to be checked out).
But, now there is a metal detector at the door and ALMOST everybody has to go through it. There is a big sign at the entrance that states absolutely no weapons of any kind are allowed, including pen-knives, knitting needles, fingernail files, scissors, toenail clippers and lots of other stuff.
Before I go in I have to empty my pockets of all the fluff and lint I normally carry... A Swiss Army Knife being the most lethal, but I also have to leave my 6-in machinist's ruler out in the car. I am, however, permitted to bring in a ball point pen to fill out and sign my check to be presented to the Clerk of Court (nice bunch of ladies there! [and I really mean that!])
But two things bother me...
One) I don't know ANY of the people standing around with Guns on their hips. I can understand, my being a stranger in the place (after all I am only there once per month) that nobody knows me or that I am just a harmless, fat old man, but all those armed people are, likewise, complete strangers to ME, I seldom see that same one twice in a row and I have no idea if they are there to protect me or shoot me. Granted, most all have some sort of uniform on, but I can't tell the difference between a State Trooper, a Sheriff, a city Policeman and a Boyscout Master, or someone on their way to a masquerade ball.
Two) One time I watched as another total stranger (to me) came in behind me, sat his briefcase on the floor next to (and outside of) the metal detector, climbed over the rope barrier, picked up the briefcase from the other side and continued on his way. One of the fellows bristling with firearms, just smiled and tipped his hat.
The only weapons I am allowed to bring with me are my wit, charm, good looks and a ballpoint pen, so how am I more SECURE if that is all I have with which to defend myself from these people that don't know me and I don't know them if they have all the lethal weapons?
I am not advocating that I want to tow around a 105-MM Howitzer on my back, but I do NOT feel even the least bit secure when I am in there. I feel naked and vulnerable to the whim of strangers with deadly weapons!
I feel the same way about this situation at the Courthouse as I do about that video...
"Yer tax dollers et werk!"
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
That video seems like nothing more than the bureaucracy self-promoting a bigger role for itself by deputizing the public. If I took their advice to look for the signs and report them, I would see those signs everywhere.
Suspicious activity? If you are looking for terrorists, everything looks suspicious. And if the entire population went around reporting everything they could not explain, we would need a thousand new layers of the Homeland Security resource pie. That is the whole point.
I feel less safe knowing that what security we have is being diverted into this self-serving nonsense. Real security is invisible. It does not go around turning its citizens into amateur detective busy bodies.
So, here's the question: If you think that more security is better, would you be fine with being detained for taking photos of trains if you answered a question wrong?
Would you feel good about being arrested on suspicion of terrorism for taking photos near an oil refinery, and having to prove your innocence?
Would you be fine with anyone who is missing fingers, having more than 3 days worth of food, or owning a gun being candidates for suspicion of terrorism, and being held indefinitely without trial?
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
coborn35 But its really not though. Terrorists go for the big kill, not some po dunk local switching the industrys.
But its really not though. Terrorists go for the big kill, not some po dunk local switching the industrys.
I know of some locals that haul some nasty stuff. Plus they go to industries filled with even more. Lot of whacked-out people out there, unfortunately.
Motley Terrorism on the railroads is a real threat.
Terrorism on the railroads is a real threat.
But its really not though. Terrorists go for the big kill, not some po dunk local switching the industrys. I always laugh when the CN guys harass me. Im like dude, I hope the terrorists try to bomb the Missabe as opposed to other places. You know what you get when you blow up taconite pellets? More taconite pellets!
I will say that all the security at Amtrak is stupid and nieve. Its like the saying that no one steals anything in their own vehicle, they steal it in the company truck. If someone is going to vandalize a train, I can garuntee it wont happen at the station or on the train. Duh.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
And those that truly NEED to be drug tested and the 535 men and women that cast votes in Congress.
zardoz But now it's far too late to do anything about it; Big Brother has won, and there is nothing anybody can do about it anymore. I'm glad I am as old as I am, for what lies ahead of us is not pleasant to contemplate. Dystopia is not a place I care to call home. The young people today are lucky in one way: they have never lived without so much of their lives being monitored; thus they cannot miss what they never had.
But now it's far too late to do anything about it; Big Brother has won, and there is nothing anybody can do about it anymore. I'm glad I am as old as I am, for what lies ahead of us is not pleasant to contemplate. Dystopia is not a place I care to call home.
The young people today are lucky in one way: they have never lived without so much of their lives being monitored; thus they cannot miss what they never had.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Phoebe Vet Treating everyone like a criminal in case there might be a criminal somewhere is bizarre, paranoid, and against everything the USA has stood for since it was founded.
And yet accept it we did, all in the name of .....what, exactly? Safety? Security? Yeah, right. If you believe that, I have some property to sell you at a great price. Just because that moron Gates ran his locomotives in front of that Amtrak train, employees everywhere have had to subject themselves to such testing without due cause. Of course, technically the tests aren't mandatory; it's only mandatory if you want to keep your job. When, exactly, did it become acceptable for a company to dictate to its employees what they could or could not do in their own free time?
Phoebe Vet Motley: Everybody complains of civil liberties being taken, until something happens. Then after a railraod gets bombed, everyone will complain why didnt' they have securty. What the hell was our guys doing. That we pay them to protect us. Frightened people always assume that people who are not frightened just don't understand. I am a retired police officer from NY. My beliefs on civil liberties did not change after 9/11. I do not blame the government for the crimes committed on 9/11. If a violent crime is committed against a railroad I will not blame a lack of security, I will blame the criminals who did it. Your assumption is in error. It is just an attempt to project YOUR fear on others.
Motley: Everybody complains of civil liberties being taken, until something happens. Then after a railraod gets bombed, everyone will complain why didnt' they have securty. What the hell was our guys doing. That we pay them to protect us.
Frightened people always assume that people who are not frightened just don't understand.
I am a retired police officer from NY. My beliefs on civil liberties did not change after 9/11. I do not blame the government for the crimes committed on 9/11. If a violent crime is committed against a railroad I will not blame a lack of security, I will blame the criminals who did it.
Your assumption is in error. It is just an attempt to project YOUR fear on others.
LOL People don't kill. Guns do.
It's not about blame, PV, it is about prevention.
Motley Everybody complains of civil liberties being taken, until something happens. Then after a railraod gets bombed, everyone will complain why didnt' they have securty. What the hell was our guys doing. That we pay them to protect us.
PNWRMNM I am still waiting for that real and demonstrated threat to railroad security. Mac
I am still waiting for that real and demonstrated threat to railroad security.
This study was presented by the highly respected Rand Corporation prior to the Madrid and Chechen terrorist train bombings. The threat to rail security has only increased since then.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/testimonies/2005/RAND_CT224.pdf
Phoebe Vet Just to clarify, I am not against REASONABLE security. At Union Station in DC, uniformed police officers, some of them with bomb sniffing dogs, patrol the station. They do not confront people unless they, or the dogs, see something suspicious. The only ID procedure is that you hold up your picture ID and your ticket as you walk through the door to the platform.
Hmmm, I wonder what Ben Franklin and William Pitt would think about that?
richhotrain Neither one of us is old enough to recall WWII when our government found it necessary to take certain precautionary steps to protect its citizentry.
Neither one of us is old enough to recall WWII when our government found it necessary to take certain precautionary steps to protect its citizentry.
Are you referring to when the government rounded up American citizens of Japanese descent and held them in camps? That was another example of paranoid over reaction. There are people in this country right now who would do the same thing to American born Muslims if they thought they could get away with it.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
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