SUX V R40 Rider When you refer to ignoring of notices and warnings and committing acts of civil disobedience are you talking about when someone trespasses onto railroad property or taking photos from a public place, not on railroad property?
When you refer to ignoring of notices and warnings and committing acts of civil disobedience are you talking about when someone trespasses onto railroad property or taking photos from a public place, not on railroad property?
Civil disobedience is the refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a governmental unit, federal, state or local.
Alton Junction
richhotrain This thread turned silly about three pages ago. First of all, there is no railroad security presumption that anyone and everyone photopgraphing trains is a suspected terroist. Second of all, many of the arguments made in this thread about ignoring security notices and warnings are at least acts of civil disobedience, and they carry legal consequences including arrest and prosecution. I guess that you could resist arrest, but lots of luck. The actions of railroad security officers cited in this thread are, in no way, violations of the U.S. Constitution and certainly not the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments. While this argument wouldn't hold water either, one would make a better argument by arguing violation of the 1st Amendment. Rich
This thread turned silly about three pages ago.
First of all, there is no railroad security presumption that anyone and everyone photopgraphing trains is a suspected terroist.
Second of all, many of the arguments made in this thread about ignoring security notices and warnings are at least acts of civil disobedience, and they carry legal consequences including arrest and prosecution. I guess that you could resist arrest, but lots of luck.
The actions of railroad security officers cited in this thread are, in no way, violations of the U.S. Constitution and certainly not the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments. While this argument wouldn't hold water either, one would make a better argument by arguing violation of the 1st Amendment.
Rich
While railroad security officials do not o may not have this presumption, and i call that into question, it has been established that the Department of Homeland security does have that presumption.
Of course we have to keep in mind that the Committee for State Security views photography of any kind of facility from anywhere to be a terrorist threat.
I don’t know if railroad cops take such an oath. But cops are free to assume you are guilty. It is just that their assumption is not the final word in the matter. You still get due process. But cops can stop you and question you any time without it being a violation of the constitution. I am not sure what limits may or may not be placed on the reason they can question you.
The big issue I see is that Homeland Security has proclaimed that photographing trains is automatic evidence that the photographer is doing so in order to plan for unlawful activity. I think it is fair to say that they do not conclude that there can be no other explanation for railroad photography. But because the possibility of the photographer having terrorist intentions always exists, then it is incumbent on the authorities to prove otherwise in every case of such behavior if it is detected.
But this is indeed a bureaucratic absurdity. Where do you draw the line? What is suspicious behavior and what isn’t? If photographing trains is suspicious, then surely just paying attention to them is equally suspicious. Homeland Security illustrates the absurdity of this when they tell the public that anything you don’t understand qualifies as suspicious, and therefore requires an official checkout by the authorities. I would have to call the police to check out people in grocery stores talking on cell phones.
Bucyrus SUX V R40 Rider: Again by assuming all rail fans are terrorists homeland security is in stark violation of at the very least the spirit of the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments. BTW did you know it is your right to not open your mouth and say anything to anyone if approached while photographing anything from a public place, even if the person is identified as law enforcement? I don’t see how the authorities suspecting railroad photographers of being terrorists is a violation of the 5th, 6th, or 14th Amendments. Due process is not being denied by suspecting one is a terrorist. As far as refusing to answer questions, that is up to each individual. It is a tradeoff as to whether you want to end the hassle expeditiously, or stand on the principle that the hassle should not have occurred in the first place.
SUX V R40 Rider: Again by assuming all rail fans are terrorists homeland security is in stark violation of at the very least the spirit of the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments. BTW did you know it is your right to not open your mouth and say anything to anyone if approached while photographing anything from a public place, even if the person is identified as law enforcement?
BTW did you know it is your right to not open your mouth and say anything to anyone if approached while photographing anything from a public place, even if the person is identified as law enforcement?
I don’t see how the authorities suspecting railroad photographers of being terrorists is a violation of the 5th, 6th, or 14th Amendments. Due process is not being denied by suspecting one is a terrorist. As far as refusing to answer questions, that is up to each individual. It is a tradeoff as to whether you want to end the hassle expeditiously, or stand on the principle that the hassle should not have occurred in the first place.
Because the presumption is already there that anyone photographing railroads are terrorists. That is how the 3 amendments are being violated, at least in the spirit. When law enforcement of any type approaches you because you are photographing anything from a public place they already have the mind set you must be doing so to commit illegal acts later. As such they consider you guilty before you even have a chance to prove your innocence.
I tend to stand on the principle that the hassle should never occur in the first place.
Answer me this if anyone can. Do railroad law enforcement personal take an oath and swear to uphold and abide by the U.S. Constitution as all other law enforcement officials in this country do?
SUX V R40 RiderAgain by assuming all rail fans are terrorists homeland security is in stark violation of at the very least the spirit of the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments. BTW did you know it is your right to not open your mouth and say anything to anyone if approached while photographing anything from a public place, even if the person is identified as law enforcement?
Bucyrus Regarding the use of a face recognition camera to confirm whether or not a person is on the list of terrorists, there is a high probability that an actual terrorist would not be on any list. If they would be satisfied that a person was not a threat just because they are not on the list, they would not need airport security. They could just check your identity against the terrorist list when you buy your ticket. They check people at the airports even though there is no reason to suspect them. With train photographers, the starting assumption is that they are all terrorists. This is because being a terrorist is the only explanation they can understand for why a person would take pictures of trains. Any real terrorist with half a brain that wants to photograph trains for tactical information is going to disguise himself as a railfan photographer.
Any real terrorist with half a brain that wants to photograph trains for tactical information is going to disguise himself as a railfan photographer.
Again by assuming all rail fans are terrorists homeland security is in stark violation of at the very least the spirit of the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments.
BTW did you know it is your right to not open your mouth and say anything to anyone if approached while photographing anything from a public place, even if the person is identified as law enforcement? Did you also know you have the right to refuse to show your I.D. to such a person? You do. The problem is most people either don't know it, or comply anyway which puts their name on a list which can have a harmful affect on you later on.
Regarding the use of a face recognition camera to confirm whether or not a person is on the list of terrorists, there is a high probability that an actual terrorist would not be on any list. If they would be satisfied that a person was not a threat just because they are not on the list, they would not need airport security.
They could just check your identity against the terrorist list when you buy your ticket. They check people at the airports even though there is no reason to suspect them. With train photographers, the starting assumption is that they are all terrorists. This is because being a terrorist is the only explanation they can understand for why a person would take pictures of trains.
Bucyrus SUX V R40 Rider: Let's talk about public train facilities. Isn't Grand Central Terminal a public building? If it is is there a law, ordinance or signs posted prohibting photography in any of the public places of the building? If there are signs posted, is there actually a law or ordinance in place to back it up? If not why the rule against photography in the building? I don't understand your analogy. Is there a prohibition against taking photographs in GCT? There two distinct issues about railroad phtotography. One is that you can't trespass in order to take pictures. That has always been the case and the reasoning is understandable. The other issue is that a photographer might be a terrorist collecting visual information to plan a terrorist attack. That issue is much harder to pin down. Nobody has yet banned railroad photography because of that issue. It is just that Homeland Security believes that anyone photographing railroad facilities is a suspected terrorist and must be checked out to prove otherwise. What they have not figured out, however, is how to check out someone photographing trains and prove that he or she is not a terrorist. How would you accomplish that objective if you ran Homeland Security?
SUX V R40 Rider: Let's talk about public train facilities. Isn't Grand Central Terminal a public building? If it is is there a law, ordinance or signs posted prohibting photography in any of the public places of the building? If there are signs posted, is there actually a law or ordinance in place to back it up? If not why the rule against photography in the building?
Let's talk about public train facilities. Isn't Grand Central Terminal a public building? If it is is there a law, ordinance or signs posted prohibting photography in any of the public places of the building? If there are signs posted, is there actually a law or ordinance in place to back it up? If not why the rule against photography in the building?
I don't understand your analogy. Is there a prohibition against taking photographs in GCT?
There two distinct issues about railroad phtotography. One is that you can't trespass in order to take pictures. That has always been the case and the reasoning is understandable.
The other issue is that a photographer might be a terrorist collecting visual information to plan a terrorist attack. That issue is much harder to pin down. Nobody has yet banned railroad photography because of that issue. It is just that Homeland Security believes that anyone photographing railroad facilities is a suspected terrorist and must be checked out to prove otherwise.
What they have not figured out, however, is how to check out someone photographing trains and prove that he or she is not a terrorist.
How would you accomplish that objective if you ran Homeland Security?
Could the department of Homeland Security be guilty of violating the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments, not in the letter of the law but at least in some ways be doing so in the spirit of these 3 amendments, because they believe anyone photographing railroad facilities is a terrorist? I grew up learning and learned even more so in school that ALL Americans are protected by these 3 amendments, among the others. As such I have always had a healthy respect for the law and the U.S. Constitution. Was I taught wrong? Was I foolish to believe what I was taught? I am pretty sure the basis of these 3 amendments is still being taught in schools, even today. Does this mean, because of homeland security is doing there is yet another generation of suckers being taught something that will not be true and apply to them when they finish school?
I have a solution on how to check someone out. Install cameras connected to the face recognition software on the private railroad property where anyone who is likely to stop, on public property to take photos. Face them toward the people who stop to take photos and when someone stops have the camera zoom in on them and if possible their vehicle to identify who they are. If they are indeed someone who is on the so called watch list then have the authorities alerted. As far as I know there is nothing illegal about installing cameras on private property and facing them toward the adjacent public area. The ACLU, who strongly opposes any type of camera on or in a public place, like red light and speed enforcement cameras, would not have any say the matter because they would be paid for, installed, operated by the railroad, a private entity. The person operating the cameras would simply be the one who monitors them, and if something comes up he or she makes a phone call to alert the authorities. The footage captured on video could be used as evidence in a court of law, thus preserving the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments of the Constitution.
SUX V R40 Rider Let's talk about public train facilities. Isn't Grand Central Terminal a public building? If it is is there a law, ordinance or signs posted prohibting photography in any of the public places of the building? If there are signs posted, is there actually a law or ordinance in place to back it up? If not why the rule against photography in the building?
There has been mention, more than once, about taking photos from a public place. But what about taking photos FROM a public place, OF a public place? Indulge me a little and try to follow if you would.
Would it surprise you to know I have, without permission, and after 9/11, that I walked into a public building with tripod and camera and started taking photos? I did this in not one but 2 buildings in downtown Sioux City, Iowa. One was City Hall and the other the Woodbury County Courthouse. Both are historic buildings, the courthouse was designed by famous architect, William L. Steele. In the courthouse someone walked up and asked if I was with the local media and what the story was going to be about. I advised that person I am not, but they never asked why I was taking photos. And while I was doing this there were police officers and sheriff's deputies in and out of the buildings on city or county business and not a one of them gave me a second glance or approached me about what I was doing.
You may wonder why nad how could this be, after 9/11. Simple, it is a public place, paid for by public tax dollars and both buildings belong to the people of Sioux City and Woodbury County, Iowa. and the law enforcement in my area knows this.
Next summer I am hoping to visit the Iowa State Capitol Building and photorgraph it from the inside.
edblysard http://news.yahoo.com/mass-woman-says-tsa-confiscated-frosted-cupcake-002833828.html Sometimes ya just can't invent anything more stupid than the truth. Thank god she didn't have a birthday cake on her, they may have shot her on the spot.....
http://news.yahoo.com/mass-woman-says-tsa-confiscated-frosted-cupcake-002833828.html
Sometimes ya just can't invent anything more stupid than the truth.
Thank god she didn't have a birthday cake on her, they may have shot her on the spot.....
I thought the last few sentences really summed it up well: "It's about an encroachment on civil liberties. We're just building up a resistance and tolerance to all these things they're doing in the name of security, when it's really theater. It is not keeping us safe."
vsmith Interesting, but if a I wanted to play Boris Badenoff for a day why wouldn't I just choose from the huge array of legal spying technics like pinhole cameras that can have the lenses fitted onto a tie clip or any of the other dozen methods of information gathering? Dont any of these "experts" watch any of those hidden camera exposes?
Interesting, but if a I wanted to play Boris Badenoff for a day why wouldn't I just choose from the huge array of legal spying technics like pinhole cameras that can have the lenses fitted onto a tie clip or any of the other dozen methods of information gathering? Dont any of these "experts" watch any of those hidden camera exposes?
TSA visited Utica Union Station last week. At 3 PM they picked up and left...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
23 17 46 11
My worth.
Isn't amazing what 19 idiots with box cutters can do for the national security of this country?
To paraphrase George Patton The idea of war is not to die for your cause but to make the other poor SOB die for his.
Rgds IGN
PS To VS nice picture of the Gomez Adams and his trains. And how appropriate to the subject! LOL
Bucyrus Zardoz, What I was getting at above is that any real terrorist worth his salt is going to figure out that the best method for railroad reconnaissance is to pose as a railfan. So when the authorities figure out the ruse, it will do no good to check out railfans to make sure they are not terrorists. After all, Homeland Security makes a big point of not profiling people on their appearance because they say terrorists can look like anybody.
After all, Homeland Security makes a big point of not profiling people on their appearance because they say terrorists can look like anybody.
FWIW, I agree with you.
Zardoz,
What I was getting at above is that any real terrorist worth his salt is going to figure out that the best method for railroad reconnaissance is to pose as a railfan. So when the authorities figure out the ruse, it will do no good to check out railfans to make sure they are not terrorists.
eolafan The next thing you know we'll be seeing "Kim Jong Un for President...like it or not" placards on telephone poles all over the place!
The next thing you know we'll be seeing "Kim Jong Un for President...like it or not" placards on telephone poles all over the place!
I've already heard people referring to the heir apparent of North Krazyland as Kim Jong Who? or Kim Jong Huh?
Have fun with your trains
vsmith ...."I could slip onto the tracks and back off again and never be seen because the security guys are too busy aiming their cameras on John Q Foamer standing on a bridge taking pictures of the 2:15 local. So you get my point, and by the way, I'm not saying anything that isnt already well understood by anyone who really knows how to assess where the threats are. This is the simplistic thinking I'm using, nothing sophisticated. The notion of someone standing in full plain view with a tripod and camera and a hat covered in railroad pins is the threat is idiotic.
...."I could slip onto the tracks and back off again and never be seen because the security guys are too busy aiming their cameras on John Q Foamer standing on a bridge taking pictures of the 2:15 local.
So you get my point, and by the way, I'm not saying anything that isnt already well understood by anyone who really knows how to assess where the threats are. This is the simplistic thinking I'm using, nothing sophisticated. The notion of someone standing in full plain view with a tripod and camera and a hat covered in railroad pins is the threat is idiotic.
Thanks, Vsmith. Lost in this discussion is one of the major points I was making about the video. Down on the tracks we get a momentary glimpse of three people who may be trespassers heading along the right of way. Likely they are simply taking a convenient shortcut, not preparing to plant a time bomb in the nearby staged commuter cars or some such terrorist act. The fact remains that they are completely ignored in this video. That sort of selective blindness is why the moniker "security theatre" is so often deserved.
John
zardoz Bucyrus: 3) There is no way that Homeland Security or authorities can conclude that a person taking pictures of railroad operations from public property is not part of a terrorist operation, even after checking them out. Good luck explaining that to Sheriff Buford T. Justice when he rolls up and drawls, "Whatcha doin' there boy?"
Bucyrus: 3) There is no way that Homeland Security or authorities can conclude that a person taking pictures of railroad operations from public property is not part of a terrorist operation, even after checking them out. Good luck explaining that to Sheriff Buford T. Justice when he rolls up and drawls, "Whatcha doin' there boy?"
I said no way to conclude person is not a terrorist.
Its not a far reach to go from prohibiting taking pictures of trains from public spaces to prohibiting taking pictures of plazas, buildings and landmarks from public spaces, its the same logic, and flawed logic at that. Sorry your vacation ended in jail, but you shouldnt have taken those pictures of your children in front of the Lincoln Memorial, its National Security dontch know!
richhotrain Phoebe Vet: The country continues to sink into the swamp of paranoia. We live in a country where we suspect people of being criminals if they take pictures of things that you can see from a public street. Our national obsession with "security" is becoming a mental illness. C'mon, Dave, isn't there some trade off between personal liberty and group security? Is it really such an imposition to accept some limits on one's ability to photograph or film trains due to the demonstrated security risks which we are all exposed to? Rich
Phoebe Vet: The country continues to sink into the swamp of paranoia. We live in a country where we suspect people of being criminals if they take pictures of things that you can see from a public street. Our national obsession with "security" is becoming a mental illness.
The country continues to sink into the swamp of paranoia. We live in a country where we suspect people of being criminals if they take pictures of things that you can see from a public street. Our national obsession with "security" is becoming a mental illness.
C'mon, Dave, isn't there some trade off between personal liberty and group security?
Is it really such an imposition to accept some limits on one's ability to photograph or film trains due to the demonstrated security risks which we are all exposed to?
I don't know if this is meant to be satirical and you were being sarcastic, but in case it isn't and you were not:
No, there is no trade off and there never should be, even after 09/11.
Yes, it is an imposition to accept limits on such things when done from a PUBLIC place.
Bucyrus Here is where we are: 1) It is not illegal to take pictures of railroad operations from public property. 2) Homeland Security regards taking pictures of railroad operations from public property to be suspicious enough to require a checkout by authorities. 3) There is no way that Homeland Security or authorities can conclude that a person taking pictures of railroad operations from public property is not part of a terrorist operation, even after checking them out.
Bucyrus Considering this irresolvable dilemma, the only remedy can be to make it illegal to take pictures of railroad operations from public property.
Here is where we are:
1) It is not illegal to take pictures of railroad operations from public property.
2) Homeland Security regards taking pictures of railroad operations from public property to be suspicious enough to require a checkout by authorities.
3) There is no way that Homeland Security or authorities can conclude that a person taking pictures of railroad operations from public property is not part of a terrorist operation, even after checking them out.
Considering this irresolvable dilemma, the only remedy can be to make it illegal to take pictures of railroad operations from public property.
Interesting, but if a I wanted to play Boris Badenoff for a day why wouldn't I just choose from the huge array of legal spying technics like pinhole cameras that can have the lenses fitted onto a tie clip or any of the other dozen methods of information gathering? Dont any of these "experts" watch any of those hidden camera exposes? Properly equiped with spyware hidden in my clothing and dressed as a commueter I could easily A: case every station, and the interior of every train for that matter, schedules are published on line so no need to time trains,and if I wanted to I could easily track movements as long as I was in eyesight of the line, like in a parked car at a nearly trackside park or store, and most of the lines are readily accessable by nearby roadways, I could slip onto the tracks and back off again and never be seen because the security guys are too busy aiming their cameras on John Q Foamer standing on a bridge taking pictures of the 2:15 local.
First, a wee story and then some oddball devil's advocate conclusions:
Many years ago, prior to the fall of the many Communist states, as a seasoned foreign traveler, my brother was assigned by his company to go to one of them to study how well a large cadre of rank and file employees of his company might fare if they were sent there en masse on company business. He said he dressed as a "tourist" (loud Hawaiian shirt and ragged cut-off shorts, a broad brimmed hat and sunglasses) with a couple of cameras around his neck and went "sight-seeing" to see what would happen in different circumstances (brave soul he was!).
He said there was a large building in the center of the city he was in that was very old and quite ornate (we in the U.S. think a building is old when it is older than our country, but 200 years is nothing compared to the age of some of the buildings in eastern (and all over) Europe!). So he stood across the plaza from it and took a photo of it.
Immediately, a guard ran toward him, waiving his arms and yelling. My brother smiled and waived back and then aimed the camera at the guard to take his picture. The guard stopped running, straightened his uniform jacket and actually posed for the photo... Then approached my brother and took the camera away from him, opened it, removed the film and pulled it from the canister to totally expose the whole roll, ruining the film (including the image he had just posed for!)!
He then gave the camera back to my brother and explained in a combination of broken English and his native tongue that the building is a Government building and it is forbidden to take photos of it. My brother acknowledged the admonition, apologized and was allowed to go his way.
When my brother came back to the States, I asked him why they would not allow someone to photograph a building from the outside. The answer that he got from the U.S. State Department when he asked them the same thing, is that with a photograph "one might be able to count the windows and determine how many rooms there were and then guess at the number of people that work in it."
I said, "Couldn't you just stand in front of the building and go, like, '1', '2', '3 ... and count the windows?"
He said the State Department kind of dismissed that comment when he asked them the same thing.
I have since given this event considerable thought, (but not much investigation!) and have some conclusions... It is possible that with a photograph, it could be enlarged such as to reveal details that the eye might not take into account in direct viewing or actually be unable to see at all, depending on the film used and the type of lens. The 'eye' might not be able to see INTO a window, but an infrared or highly sensitive film might be able to produce an image of what is beyond the darkened window. And a telephoto might show detail of construction or fortification that the eye cannot discern.
To tie this to the present "terrorist" scenareo, it is possible that the person taking the photo is not the one that will be committing suicide, but is supplying imagery so the poor sap, who is convinced that their own death is unimportant, can have a good idea of what the intended target actually looks like.
Granted, Google Earth imagery is quite good at showing the outside of buildings but the interior of most buidings (train station boarding areas?) are not so easily found on-line in the detail the terrorist might want (sure, there are plenty of tourist photos and official images posted all over, but they MAY now show what is desired, nor be 'recent').
Additionally, if you were a terrorist group, and decided on a suidical attack on some location, you would probably not want to chance sending the poor sap himself to do the investigation, but send someone else to take photos so the idiot will be able to recognize the target. If you turn the poor sap loose in American society to do his own investigation, he MIGHT decide he is enjoying himself too much to want to terminate his life in such a way and the whole plan goes down the tubes! You would want to keep the idiot unaware of the joy of freedom in American society!
By the way... just to put a cap on the wee story... my brother waited until 5:00 PM that day for the guards to all go home and he took a photo of the building anyway. I have seen it and it was a beautiful old building... And, no, I didn't waste my time counting the windows so I cannot guess how many rooms there are or how many people work there, but I do remember that it was 3 stories tall, if that is any help.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
richhotrain Mac, I appreciate your comments, and we can't let this discussion digress too much without getting the thread locked. I do agree with you that strip searching grandmothers in wheel chairs is quite ridiculous. On the other hand, if we did nothing after 9/11, who knows how much more dangerous air travel would be and how many more terrorist incidents would have occurred. The terrorist threat to railroads is real and demonstrated to date. None of us like restrictions or infringements on our personal liberties, but terrorism is real. I, for one, have no objection to limits such as our right to photograph trains. I do not, for one second, believe that this is a step toward descent into totalitarianism. Rich
Mac,
I appreciate your comments, and we can't let this discussion digress too much without getting the thread locked.
I do agree with you that strip searching grandmothers in wheel chairs is quite ridiculous.
On the other hand, if we did nothing after 9/11, who knows how much more dangerous air travel would be and how many more terrorist incidents would have occurred.
The terrorist threat to railroads is real and demonstrated to date. None of us like restrictions or infringements on our personal liberties, but terrorism is real. I, for one, have no objection to limits such as our right to photograph trains. I do not, for one second, believe that this is a step toward descent into totalitarianism.
Rich,
Goggle maps is now offering aerial views of many American cities as part of the Satellite view function. When you zoom in to maximum the picture automatically switches to an extremely high resolution aerial view where objects only a few inches in size can be clearly seen:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
If you go to the above link and zoom in you will see CSX's main Boston,Ma. area engine facility in great detail.
If somebody wants to, say, destroy a railroad bridge with explosives it seems to me that most of the recon can be done online....
The real terrorist threats to railroads you mentioned have mostly been attempts to launch suicide bomb attacks on transit trains. To plan this one only needs to go to the transit lines website and maybe ride a few trains, but I don't see why photographs would be required.
So what is banning railfan photography from public property going to accomplish other than letting politicians and bureaucrats pose as being "tough on terrorism"?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
If the Feds were Serious about Saftey and Secruity for the Nation instead of going after the little old lady at the Airports like they love to do or the man that had to remove a Depends so he could clear Secruity at the Airport what they would do instead would be working to Secure the Nations Borders. I am sorry but when people that live along the I-8 corridor will not leave their houses at night since they GET SHOT AT by all the illegals that are running drugs into the USA and the Border Patrol does NOTHING. Then we have on the OTR side all the Chemical trucks that are shipped there people you are aware that most TIH does not go by RAIL it moves by truck. If a terrorist wanted to take out the driver disabled the tracking system and hat is easy to do Cut the wires to it. Bang you have one hell of a WMD IED right there. Strap enough C4 on it to blow the tank and if placed right you could take out a major City. Just a hypothetical problem and yet the TSA and Dept of Homeland Security think a TWIC card will stop it from Happening BS it will.
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