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Trackside Lounge: 1Q 2011

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Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, January 21, 2011 8:37 AM

                   Zero                             

B.S.     B.A.         M.A.         Ph.D


It is really cold outside! (That's four degrees below zero).  I'm hoping to be able to stay indoors today.


 

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, January 21, 2011 8:00 AM

Working with a variety of volunteer engineers of varying skills and outlooks makes for a variety of coupling experiences.

Had an engineer come in so gently one time that the pin wouldn't drop (the lock pin on the coupler).  He was proud of his "zero impact" hitch, but then we had to back him out and try it again.

Another engineer, at the end of the spectrum, basically required a "stop" before he hit the coupler as he'd otherwise end up moving the cars - which in our case are usually occupied passenger cars.  Ker-CHUNK!

Some couplers are more stubborn than others. 

In our case, a 4 MPH hitch is pretty jarring, but you do want a certain amount of force.

We don't usually have to deal with hitching on curves, but I have had to move a coupler over a bit to line them up.

We always make a "safety stop" one car out, about 90', before coming in to couple.  If everything looks right (one coupler open, lined up correctly) the rest goes smoothly.

We don't usually go back out 100', but we do call for "three step" before going in between.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, January 21, 2011 6:15 AM

PDN: On the tie lengths I have an old observation so memory may partially fail me. I would like some help from someone who lives in the bay area.

1. While railfanning the Caltrain route from San Jose to San Fran 10 - 15 years ago I noticed that the rail and ties looked strange. I then noticed some replacement ties that were 6" longer on each side and then understood that the ties were shorter than normal but were placed closer together than I was used to. It appeared that SP had used the shorter ties but CalTarain was spot replacing them with normal length ties.

2. The next day I went from San Jose to Oakland and noticed the same short ties and replacements.

3. Cannot remember the ballast width

4. It would be enlightning if some one from the bay area can confirm that this is still the case or not???

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, January 21, 2011 12:56 AM

I think a true Approach or Distant signal as used in the definition Nancy quoted can only be found in dark territory.  It's the warning you get that you're approaching a signalled crossing or junction (interlocking) on otherwise signalless track. 

In GCOR as UP uses it, a distant signal (the term Carl prefers, me too) marked by a "D" plate, can only give a green, yellow, or double yellow aspect.  It's not a block signal that can protect a train, that's why many are at permanently yellow, even if the interlocking is cleared for the approaching train.  

When talking about interlockings/control points in ABS or CTC territory, I've also used the term "approach signal" to mean the last signal before the controlled Absolute signal.  I've used the term for want of something better, but it's not really a correct usage.

Don't confuse an approach indication (yellow light with or without a semaphore blade at 45 degrees) with an approach/ distant signal as used in the rules.

It depends on what rule book you're looking at as who could pass a red block signal with a number plate and a "G" plate.  In more modern times, many rule books changed the signals with the number and G plates to mean a "restricting" instead of a "stop and proceed."  Some rule books didn't change it to a restricting, but only allowed heavy tonnage trains (using the RR's own formula to determine it) to pass but everyone else had to stop.

Since most everyone it seems as done away with "stop and proceed" completely and gone to a "restricted proceed" the G plate is really meaningless now.  Most everyone can pass a red signal with a number plate at restricted speed.

This brings up that many things in the ABC's of railroading as put out for reference by Trains or Model Railroader for the casual observer or modeller can be out of date or very RR specific.  It's useful knowledge, but at times may not be able to be reconciled with current operations on the railroad that runs in your local area. 

That's why the forums are an excellent place ot ask questions.  A lot of knowledge available, from different areas, and eras.

Jeff

(Who only got out of bed to check the boards.  First out on the extra board, with vacancies showing  on the pools both ways.  Should be called within a couple of hours.  Good night) 

     

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Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:04 PM

WMNB4THRTL

Nice photos!

So, here's today's 'load' so far.

1. (Again from ABC's of Railroading: Glossary of RR Signal Terms:)Approach signal: A fixed signal used in connection with one or more other signals to govern the approach to the other signal or signals. (Also called a "distant signal.")

So it's a signal to tell you you're gonna being encountering a signal??!! Confused

The other folks have covered this fairly well.  The permanent approach signals (the ones that display yellow all the time) are usually in advance of a crossing or something for which a stop is required--a crossing with a stop sign instead of a signal, or a gate that may be set against them, or a drawbridge.  You have to pass these knowing that you'll be stopping at the next signal (or sign) practically no matter what.

The thing to keep in mind (not so much you, Nance, as others) is that a "fixed signal" is just one that stays in the same place--not necessarily one that is fixed to a certain aspect.  An Approach Signal, or Distant Signal (I'm old-fashioned--I still prefer the latter) is just the signal that comes ahead of the home signal for an interlocking.  If your track is in unsignaled territory, it's the first indication that you're coming to a place where you may need to stop to avoid a conflicting movement. 

WMNB4THRTL
2. re: grade signal--it does talk about a "G" on the post. If I understand correctly, its purpose is to tell you that if you are pulling the grade, then you don't have to stop for a stop signal, correct?

Correct.

WMNB4THRTL
a. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Or...?

 

Think about this one a bit.  If the signal is red without a "G" marker, what does it say to do?  Stop, and proceed at Restricted Speed (at least that's the old definition--the new one makes the "G" marker superfluous).  The "G" marker gives you permission to proceed without stopping, but it still has to be at Restricted Speed.  And that is defined as a speed at which you can stop short of a train, engine, or obstruction.  So yes, you can encounter another train--but no, it had better not be a close encounter!

WMNB4THRTL
3. Speaking of speed, is there a way to judge your speed if your loco doesn't have a speedometer? How is that done in this industry? (This drove me NUTS, so I'm very anxious to hear how you guys do it!! Of course, OTOH, there was always the Conductor, who never hesitates to tell you, 'cause you're always either out-running the rabbits or racing with the turtles--just ask him/herTongue Tied!!!)

This has been answered very well by others.

WMNB4THRTL
4. Switching: I know a while back, there was a thread on 'Modern Switching.' So, this might well be called, 'Not-so-modern Switching!' Why on earth does it sometimes take SO many tries to get a good hitch? (I've heard them tell of being up in the double digits!Bang Head-- Be bald for sure!! The equip. I'm ref. is nearing its centennial--look out Willard Scott!!) Is it due to the age of the equip. or...? I do know some of the time (but not always)it's because of the way the track lays, i.e. a curve.Sigh Slower/faster? Any ideas or is there basically nothing the engineer can do? Does it have anything to do with what the brakeman is/isn't doing?

The age of the equipment shouldn't matter, as long as there are two functioning couplers and at least one open knuckle.  It's usually a combination of factors--track curvature and equipment design.  In the latter case it's basically how far away from the truck center pin the coupler is--the further away, the more problems you'll have.  If you're trying to make a joint on a curve with two cars with long cushioned underframes, they'll be meeting at an angle, and the coupler won't be able to close.  The track is to move the couplers--if car design allows--to a position near the center line of the track, if possible, so they'll be hitting each other more-or-less straight on.

If the car you're trying to tie onto is by itself or part of a cut of cars that's known to be coupled with room to shove, you might be able to carefully shove to a point on the track where the joint is more capable of being made.  I was very reluctant to say this, because so many circumstances have to be just right for this possibility to present itself.  If you can't get the knuckle butted against the knuckle of the "target" car, forget about it.

If you're making a couple of dozen passes at a joint, you should have given up long ago!  Odds are that something else will have to be done--either get help in moving the drawbars, or, if all else fails, use a chain to pull the car to where the joint can be made.  Quite often, the problem occurs in trying to tie the engine to a car on a curve--locomotive couplers have very little lateral movement.  In most cases, you can grab a car from somewhere else (an adjacent track in the yard, your train if on the main line) and use it to tie onto the recalcitrant car, because its coupler can swing over.

You were right about one thing here--the engineer can't do a thing about it!  Unless he's willing to come down and help move a difficult drawbar.  Speed of coupling is unlikely to make a difference.

Unfortunately, safety rules these days have made the problem more difficult.  If you have to make adjustments to the couplers by going between the cars, you're required to separate them a distance of at least 100 feet (at least on our railroad!).  That doesn't help in cases where the couplers have to be lined up precisely.

 

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:43 PM

1.  Yes.  More importantly, the Approach signal provides an 'advance warning' of the most adverse indication that the 'Home' signal will be displaying by the time you get there - it may have 'cleared up' and be better, but it won't be any worse than the Approach predicts.  (The details depend on whether it's a 3 or 4 aspect system, etc., which might also have an "Advance Approach" indication.  [And why does it seem tonight that most signal words start with the letter 'A' ??? ] )  That's because of the very long stopping distances for trains - several thousand feet to a mile or more, as you know by now - and the often more limited visibility or 'sight' distances, which might be only several hundred feet.   If there wasn't an Approach signal, you could come rolling around a curve or other obstruction - at say, 40 MPH - to seeing a Home signal and suddenly find it red and have to stop real quickly in a short distance - not a good scene.  So if the Approach signal is anything other than 'high green', you have that entire distance to the Home signal to get your train under control and slow way down to like maybe 10 MPH approaching the Home signal anticipating that it might be red and "Prepared to Stop Short" of it, and then being able to actually stop if needed; if not, then just keep rolling on through at whatever the authorized speed is.   

This is much different from cars and highways, where the basis of the design theory and practice is that the vehicles can easily stop within the same distance as their operators can see the red traffic signal ahead - usually, several hundred feet.  Where that's not true - and there's one only a few miles from here, around a sharp right curve where you'd have no idea a traffic signal was coming up so quickly - PennDOT installed an overhead lighted sign that always reads "SIGNAL AHEAD".  then, when the traffic signal controller is about to turn that signal to red, the word "RED" on the top of that sign is lighted up and flashes, until it goes green again.  That way, when it reads "RED SIGNAL AHEAD' drivers should expect to encounter that, and have their speeds way down as they go around that curve. 

A couple months ago we had a thread here that turned into a discussion of how locomotive engineers drive on highways, and zugmann cracked me up with his comment to the effect that he applies the railroad signal rules = goes right past the yellow light, preparing to stop at the next red one !  That's what an approach signal is for. 

2.  Yes.

   a.  See next 2 answers.  Yes.  Yes.  The previous 2 answers about cover it.   

3.  Depends on the context for speed range and distance.  "Seat of your pants experience" is the easy answer and the hard skill. 

 For main line running, timing how long it takes to run the distance between the mileposts, half- or quarter-mile posts, or even the telegraph poles, was the way to do it - everyone carried or memorized a little wallet card of those times in minutes and seconds and the corresponding speed, and that's where the pocket watches with the second hands were useful.  

For much lower speeds and shorter distances, the 'rule of thumb' is that each 1 MPH is about 1.5 ft. per second; thus, 4 MPH is about 6 ft. per second, and 10 MPH is about 15 ft. per second.   So to pass a 40 ft. long car at 4 MPH would take 40 / 6 = 6.7 seconds; to pass an 89 ft. car at 10 MPH would take 89 / 15 = 6 seconds.   If you go the length of a 33 ft. rail in 5 seconds, you're going 33 / 5 = 6.6 ft. per second, or 6.6 / 1.5 = about 4.4 MPH; if you do that distance in 2 seconds, you're at 11 MPH, and so on.

There are also other 'rules of thumb' like "Count how many cars of X-ft. length go by in Y seconds and divide by Z to get the speed in MPH", but with the proliferation and variety in car lengths these days, that kind of approach doesn't often work so well any more. 

4.  A real conductor/ brakeman/ trainman type is better qualified to answer that.  Mischief  I'm sure the answer isn't "Hit it again, but harder - HARDER !", though we'll see . . . . Whistling  

- Paul North.  

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:21 PM

WMNB4THRTL

Nice photos!

So, here's today's 'load' so far.

1. (Again from ABC's of Railroading: Glossary of RR Signal Terms:)Approach signal: A fixed signal used in connection with one or more other signals to govern the approach to the other signal or signals. (Also called a "distant signal.")

So it's a signal to tell you you're gonna being encountering a signal??!! Confused

Nance, yes. As to its being permanent yellow, I looked in the ABC's of Railroading, but I could not find this. Basically, an Approach Signal tells that you are to approach the next signal prepared to stop. This is one of the aspects of a signal system, and is a steady yellow light, and may also be a semaphore arm at a 45 angle from vertical. In an ABS or CTC system, it is not permanently yellow but is yellow only when the next signal is at stop. Some roads also use a flashing yellow light, which may be called "Advance Approach," and it tells you that the next signal may be set at approach.

Some Approach signals are set permanently at approach; such are used especially when a non-signaled (or dark) line has an intersection or junction with another line which has the right-of-way (it is superior) at the intersection or junction. I have seen one at a point at which the then Mississppi Central Railroad approached the IC just above Brookhaven. There is another signal at the junction/intersection, connected to the signal system of the superior line, and its aspect then  governed the train of the inferior line. I am not sure, but I think that I saw an Advance Approach on the IC north of the junction/intersection; it was way in the distance, and I could not be sure if it was steady or flashing.

2. re: grade signal--it does talk about a "G" on the post. If I understand correctly, its purpose is to tell you that if you are pulling the grade, then you don't have to stop for a stop signal, correct?

Correct, if you have a heavy train which would be difficult to restart on the grade. usually, passenger trains would have to stop.

a. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Yes. However, if you do encounter another train, somebody has failed in his duty. Or...?

I'll let the professionals answer the rest, though I had a little experience in running a locomotive (around a wye) and in switching (if you are coupling on a curve, be sure that the drawbars are turned so the knuckles will meet).

3. Speaking of speed, is there a way to judge your speed if your loco doesn't have a speedometer? How is that done in this industry? (This drove me NUTS, so I'm very anxious to hear how you guys do it!! Of course, OTOH, there was always the Conductor, who never hesitates to tell you, 'cause you're always either out-running the rabbits or racing with the turtles--just ask him/herTongue Tied!!!)

4. Switching: I know a while back, there was a thread on 'Modern Switching.' So, this might well be called, 'Not-so-modern Switching!' Why on earth does it sometimes take SO many tries to get a good hitch? (I've heard them tell of being up in the double digits!Bang Head-- Be bald for sure!! The equip. I'm ref. is nearing its centennial--look out Willard Scott!!) Is it due to the age of the equip. or...? I do know some of the time (but not always)it's bc of the way the track lays, i.e. a curve.Sigh Slower/faster? Any ideas or is there basically nothing the engineer can do? Does it have anything to do with what the brakeman is/isn't doing? 

OK, that's probably enough to take care of for now. BTW, Paul, very cute story! I got a good chuckle out of that one.

Johnny

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:09 PM

Nice photos!

So, here's today's 'load' so far.

1. (Again from ABC's of Railroading: Glossary of RR Signal Terms:)Approach signal: A fixed signal used in connection with one or more other signals to govern the approach to the other signal or signals. (Also called a "distant signal.")

So it's a signal to tell you you're gonna being encountering a signal??!! Confused

2. re: grade signal--it does talk about a "G" on the post. If I understand correctly, its purpose is to tell you that if you are pulling the grade, then you don't have to stop for a stop signal, correct?

a. If that is right, then how does that work? Could you possibly encounter another train? Or do they figure if you are pulling a grade, you can't be going "too" fast anyway?! Or...?

3. Speaking of speed, is there a way to judge your speed if your loco doesn't have a speedometer? How is that done in this industry? (This drove me NUTS, so I'm very anxious to hear how you guys do it!! Of course, OTOH, there was always the Conductor, who never hesitates to tell you, 'cause you're always either out-running the rabbits or racing with the turtles--just ask him/herTongue Tied!!!)

4. Switching: I know a while back, there was a thread on 'Modern Switching.' So, this might well be called, 'Not-so-modern Switching!' Why on earth does it sometimes take SO many tries to get a good hitch? (I've heard them tell of being up in the double digits!Bang Head-- Be bald for sure!! The equip. I'm ref. is nearing its centennial--look out Willard Scott!!) Is it due to the age of the equip. or...? I do know some of the time (but not always)it's bc of the way the track lays, i.e. a curve.Sigh Slower/faster? Any ideas or is there basically nothing the engineer can do? Does it have anything to do with what the brakeman is/isn't doing? 

OK, that's probably enough to take care of for now. BTW, Paul, very cute story! I got a good chuckle out of that one.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:07 PM

It's amazing what cats can get people to do, ain't it?  Smile, Wink & Grin

Two nice catches today, both I've missed several times in the last couple of months:
1) CN 2141, first ex-BNSF C40-8W in CN paint that's in service;
CN 2141

2) IC 2464, the last IC 24xx series locomotive I needed to photograph for my roster;
IC 2464

Off to get dinner goin' for a certain little guy...

Dan

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:54 PM

Laugh  Thanks, Nance, - "Fair deal".  Thumbs Up  And Larry, thanks for confirming that. 

I think a lot of good learning occurred here over the last few days.  Cool 

Gotta go batten down some hatches - some 4" - 6" of white stuff coming overnight, and Marie (my wife) has an early class down towards Philly tomorrow, so I believe she's going down tonight to stay with a cousin. 

But before I go, a short little animal story:  Back in early August, we were 'adopted' by a stray kitten - domestic short-hair mix, "tuxedo" pattern - mostly black, but with a white chest/ bib and paws, etc. - we named him "Phantom' (as in "of the Opera", because of the colors).  One of his favorite toys is an acorn from an oak tree - bat it around the hardwood and stone floors and watch it spin and wobble, drop it into the wood bag and then fish it out, carry it around in his mouth, knock it under the furniture until it comes out the other side, play soccer or hockey with it down the hallway, etc.  Well, he somehow knocked it through the gaps next to and under the dishwasher, and sat there all forlorn and meowing through dinner, waiting for his toy to come back out.  So after dinner I'm down there on the floor for about a hour doing my best imitation of the MayTag repairman, taking apart the 'toeboard' panel, fishing out the acorn, reassembling everything - takes 3 hands, don't you know ? - and then cobbling together a couple pieces of matching cardboard to block the opening from any future such excursions.  The things I get involved in . . . . Whistling  Stay warm, safe, and dry, everyone. 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:24 PM

Now friends, not to muddy the tracks here, but in all fairness, I just found this and, since Paul's been so helpful, and such a good sport, too, I just had to come back and post this, found here on Trains site under ABC's of Railroading, Glossary of Railroad Signal Terms:

Absolute-Permissive Block system (APB): An ABS system for single track railroads, configured to automatically provide absolute signal protection between opposing trains on single track and at passing sidings, but allow following trains to proceed governed by permissive signals.

Of course, it also had this:

Automatic Block System (ABS): A series of consecutive blocks governed by block signals, cab signals, or both, actuated by a train or engine, or by certain conditions affecting the use of a block (i.e., an open switch or a broken rail).

However, I just had to help a fella out, ya know?!

There, Paul, as we say in my neck of the woods, 'Don't say I never gave you anything!'  WinkAnd hey, it's only right to help you out after all the help you have been.

PS Thanks Larry, we posted at the same time. BTW, nice mugshot!

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:21 PM

Dynamic brakes do require that the prime mover be throttled up, and for exactly the reason given - to apply power to the traction motor so that it will become a generator.  As I recall, the trottle setting varies - or did, when the same lever controlled either the D/B or the trottle. 

Traction motors are not permanent magnet motors (such as are found on most toys, etc).  Anyone who remembers the old bicycle generators will remember that you could actually feel a difference when you turned the light on and off while riding.  That was a crude form of dynamic braking.

Of course, all that energy has to be dissipated somehow.  Electric railroads would put it back into the catenary, where it might help power a train which was drawing power.

On a D/E locomotive, the energy is dissipated as heat via the dynamic brake grid (a big resistor) and the associated fan.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:07 PM

You're all quite welcome - this is a "2-way street", and I get to look at, think about, and write about some topics that I might not have otherwise.   

Carl - That was a very good imitation of K.P.'s style.  Except for the location, I could not have told the difference.  Speaking of which, I wasn't that close to your territory - or most others - last week.  The big tin birds were 500 or so miles south and 30+ thousand feet above you, on our way to Phoenix and back via Denver.  But that has been on my mind and travel plans - almost worked in Oct. to also meet our daughter in Chi-town, but her travel plans were rearranged and drastically compressed suddenly, so maybe another time . . .

Further on those ancient freight cars I mentioned the other day, this morning at 9:15 AM a post by one "geep39" [not me] showed up with the following summary, on this forum and thread for "Fallen Flags - Lehigh Valley - Allentown branchlines":

 http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=LV;action=display;num=1288908817;start=400

"I managed to wander along the Traylor complex a few years ago, and noted a number of ex-RDG class FMn flats which were used in auto frame service before they were retired.  Yes, they were cut down from gondola cars by the RDG.  There were also some shorter ex-PRR flats that were painted aquamarine and seemed to have red BLW stickers on them, which leads me to believe that they were from the Baldwin Locomotive Works.  There were also some CNJ/CRP "three board" gondolas that were used as flats.  The LV piggyback flat I also recall.  There was at least one very deep gondola of DL&W heritage.  There was a flat with roller bearing trucks that looked like it was an MDT mechanical reefer.  It seems that all but the RDG flats had been scrapped, unless there are some deep inside the plant somewhere."  ["CRP" here most likely means the Central Railroad of Pennsylvania, a subsidiary of the CNJ/ Central Railroad of New Jersey for its Pennsylvania holdings. - PDN] 

There is an amazing collection of photos, stories, maps, and descriptions in there, mostly of small-city railroading in the 1960's - 1980's time frame, which is now up to 21 pages/ 400+ posts.  For those of us who are interested in such things, that railroad, or that location, etc., it's probably worth a visit - but be sure to allow some time, because it can sure suck you in !

Johnny - What you've heard about installing concrete switch ties is correct - "no 2 are alike", due to the constantly varying angle through the curve, and then the diverging angle and track center spacing through the frog and beyond.  It can be and has been done -  both here and in Europe - but only on a very pre-planned, thoroughly calculated, and site-specific basis where the entire turnout and all of its ties are replaced, usually as panels.  There's no replacing of individal wood ties with concrete ones, nor of dragging a 16 ft. long tie out to a site and cutting or drilling it to fit the need, as can be done today with a wood switch timber. 

All, regarding more fuel use on down grades - Here's the entire sentence that I believe led to Nance's question, from the bottom of the 5th paragraph of the article on "Grades and Curves" in the "Railroad Reference - ABC's of railroading" here at:

http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Grades%20and%20curves.aspx  

"Descending grades carry their own penalties in the form of equipment wear and tear and increased fuel consumption." [Emphasis added - PDN] 

The only other basis for that statement I can think of it that to go down a grade, first you have to have gotten to someplace higher, and to do that is what increased the fuel use.  But I think that's a strained interpetation, based on the previous answers relating to the dynamic brakes, although those are not mentioned in this article until some 3 paragraphs further on . . .

Unless, it's because of the use of "power braking" techniques, also sometimes known as "Set 'em and drag 'em down the hill", to avoid the risk of a runaway if the brakes are released during a descent.  A couple of NTSB reports have addressed that problem, and BaltACD had a good insight here on one of the CSX grades within the past year or so.  He said that it was a real danger because there was a flat or level spot in the middle that faced the engineer with a "Hobson's choice" of either leaving the brakes applied and risk having the train come to a stop there and tying up the main line until the retainers could be set, the brake line recharged and released, and then set again, before moving on under braking action by using the locomotives to overcome it; or, release the brakes to get past the flat spot, and then risk a runaway before the same procedure could be completed while on the move down the grade. 

Nance - on curves, that article is pretty good, and covers most of what I would have posted anyway.  The major point I would add is that curves also increase resistance on down grades, and help to restrain the trains somewhat more than on tangents, whcih also helps with the braking.  Is there some particular point that you don't understand ?  Otherwise, if you're not a railroad civil or track engineer or surveyor ("mudchicken") who really needs to know and understand all the details, the following pretty well sums it up:

Curves: 1) increase resistance to train movement; 2) usually impose speed restrictions; 3) are hard to see around; 4) sometimes need to be super-elevated ("banking", as on a racetrack) to compensate for their forces; and 5) the sharpness of curves is measured in "Degrees" or "D", which ranges from 0 (straight) to about 23 degrees or so (very sharp) for standard gauge North American operations.  Points 2, 4, and 5 are inter-related in that the amount of super-elevation can compensate for the existing curvature and the desired speed  to an extent, and that is usually accomplished by using the Degree of curvature as the 'parameter' to see how the speeds and super-elevations interact with each other.  Keep in mind that it's real long and hard and expensive to relocate or 'ease' a curve; a little-time-consuming, but usually not too terribly hard or expensive to adjust the amount of super-elevation - either way, more/ higher or less/ lower, as long as you have access to a tamper, surfacing crew, a few hundred tons of ballast stone, and the necessary 'track time' to do it; and pretty easy and inexpensive to just slap on or adjust a speed restriction to reflect either or both of the former. 

EDIT (took a while to find a table like this):  For example, the little "Table 3-1. Superelevation in Inches." of allowable Speed in MPH vs. Super-elevation ("SE") and Degree of curve at the top of Page 2 of 5 of this PDF file - http://140.194.76.129/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-3-152/c-3.pdf , which I believe is from an Army Training Manual -  indicates the following Speeds for various Superelevatons on a 6 Deg. 00 Min. (about 955 ft. radius) curve:

1"  SE - 20 MPH; 2" - about 30 MPH; 3"  SE - 35 MPH; 4"  SE - 40 MPH; 5"  SE - 45 MPH

Notice that this is a 'non-linear' relationship or trend - to double the Speed from 20 to 40 MPH requires 4 times as much Super-elevation, from 1" to 4". 

Or, for a curve that is half as sharp - 3 Deg. 00 Min. (about 1,910 ft. radius), the same max. Speed of 45 MPH could be attained with only half as much SE - 2-1/2", and 1" of SE would allow a Speed of 30 MPH, etc.

Hope this is helpful.

- Paul North.

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:17 PM

ALLERLEI

1. Mileposts from Branch Jct. to Freeport–I checked and found that they really do seem to be from New Orleans via the old IC main line through Jackson, Tenn. Perhaps this was a holdover from early mergers of the New Orleans, Jackson and Great Northern, which began in New Orleans, and the other roads–though the original IC mainline came down from Freeport to Centralia, and not down from Chicago.

MC, you are quite welcome; I do not know why I bought, several years ago, an IC ETT that had no passenger service, unless it was to give you information.

2. Switch ties–it is much easier to replace a wood switch tie than a concrete switch tie, since (I have been told) that replacement concrete switch ties have to be cast in place so that the holes on each tie will be in the proper places.

3. ABS–Paul, you are forgiven.

4. Nance, we are enjoying sharing our knowledge–and I learned, from you, that more fuel is used when going downhill when dynamic brakes are used.

Johnny

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:16 AM

Well, many thanks to you all, again! BowBow

Paul, I second what Carl said. Wink

Carl, Laugh and I'm glad to hear you say you are learning from my journey through RailRoading 101, if you will. I hope there are others enjoying and benefiting from it, as well-- esp. bc I'm sure there are several of you who have forgotten more than I'll ever know!!

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:24 AM

Paul, your explanation on concrete ties did get pretty "ling".  Of course, I hope you'll "linger" on the curves as well.  I'm learning stuff!Wink


(In my best K.P. Harrier imitation....)

Two new signal bungalows have been unloaded at the site of the crossovers in Lombard.  Earlier, this Forumist had surmised that the name of the control point would be "Grace", after the street which bisects the crossovers, but it now appears that the control point (Y019) will be simply named "Lombard".  As of now, no further work has been done on the track, with only three of the eight crossover switches installed.

Part B of this post will be available for posting whenever something else exciting happens.Wink

Carl

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 AM

"ABS" means Automatic Block Signal system 

"ABS" means Automatic Block Signal system 

"ABS" means Automatic Block Signal system 

[repeat 97 more times . . . ]  Thanks, guys, that was a real 'brain blip' of some kind !

WMNB4THRTL
  To make it easier, I thought I'd re-post my earlier questions, if anybody's bored and looking for something to do.(edited bc I have certain answers.)

"Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties.

1. Re: grades

   (a. & b.  answered already)

    c. It says that going down grades leads to increased fuel consumption. Don't you save fuel going down hill? Is this something to do with dynamic braking?

2. Curves-- UGH!! I don't have questions bc I don't understand enough of any of it to have any yet!! (I did well in school but Math was NOT my strongest subject, for sure.) Can someone pls simplify this into what is necessary info, on a practical level. Thankfully, I will not be designing or building RR's, etc. I just need a basic understanding.

3. Ties:

a. It states that ties are either 8'6" long or 9' long? Anybody know the story with this? Are both sizes common, etc? Adv/disadv, etc?

b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they 'mutually exclusive?'

Thanks, folks." 

Despite having been somewhat humiliated by the ABS acronym as noted above, I'll take a whack at these, since no one else has in the meantime. 

1. c.  Fair warning - I'm no expert on this, but here goes: The only thing I can think of is that the engine and generator need to be run faster when the dynamic brake is engaged - up to the 6th throttle position, which I understand is the maximum on some railroads (NS on the East Slope/ Horse Shoe Curve).  About a year and a half ago I heard and saw a manned rear-end helper on a long eastbound intermodal train descending that grade there really roaring away with an exhaust plume to match, and that's one explanation that made the most sense.  Of course, running those systems at anything above an idle uses more fuel. 

You might think that dynamic braking is like coasting or just downshifting your car to let the engine and drive train provide 'passive' braking through the engine compression, but I understand it's more complicated than that.  I'm thinking that the field coils of the traction motors first need to be 'excited' by an electrical current in order to develop their retarding force from the armature's rotation by the downhill 'push' of the trailing train, and that excitation comes from the main generator when the diesel-electric transmission system is in effect 'run backwards' this way.  And, the more dynamic braking force that's needed or wanted, of course the faster and harder the engine and generator have to run - hence more fuel is used.  This is all electrical engineering and power circuits and motors and controls, and it would be helpful for one of the experts here or others more informed than me on that to join in - I'm hoping someoone like Erik will.

Now onto subjects that I'm qualified and experienced in: 

2. Curves:  I'll address that separately later on, because 3. below got pretty long.

3. Ties.

a. Length: here on the East Coast, 8'-6" ties are pretty nearly universal for ordinary track.  I've read that some western roads - UP ? - have used 9'-0" ties, but I've not yet seen a recognizable photo of that.  A couple weeks ago I was looking at  grade crossing in an ex-SP branch and an 80' length of replacement panel track for it a little southeast of Phoenix, AZ and I didn't notice any difference in the tie lengths, although I was more focused on the rail and fasteners, etc.  The 9 ft. length may be common elsewhere, but not in my experience. 

The biggest disadvantage with them would be a higher material cost, both because they're longer and hence just have more wood in them, and also because a bigger tree is needed to make them = less ties yielded even from one of those bigger trees, which are a little scarcer and hence more expensive as well.  The advantage is that the 9 ft. ties are about 6% longer than the 8'-6" ties = 102", hence the train loads are spread out over at least that much more area of the ballast and subgrade, which reduces the unit load or stress commensurately. 

Actually, since most of the support for the rail is from the outer portion of the tie - for an 8'-6" tie, about 21" from the centerline of the rail to the end of the tie - and a commensurate length inside the rail, the benefit would be a little higher.  (The middle roughly 18" of the tie [102" - 2 rails x 2 x 21" at each rail, for the inside and outside] should not be carry much load, or else it may become 'center-bound' and risk breaking upwards.  Instead, its main function is to hold the 2 opposite outer ends of the tie together and at the proper distance/ gauge, and through the rail anchors, to resist the tendency of the track for longitudinal motion through the ballast from train forces and heat expansion of the rails, etc.)  Considering that, a 9 ft. tie would be 3" longer on each end, which would expand the 42" or so (2 x 21") of bearing area for each rail, which is about 7%.  However, that extension of the outer support area might also 'mobilize' an 'equal and opposite' another 3" of the middle portion of the tie, which would double that benefit to about a 14% increase in the tie's support area, and a likewise reduction in the unit loads on the subgrade.  That might be worthwhile in areas with weak, soft, or wet soils, such as along rivers and the southern coasts, etc.  I don't believe the slightly longer length of the 9 ft. ties is a huge hassle for the tie distribution cars or the tie replacement gangs, though, once they're set up for them.       

b.  Yes, concrete and wooden ties are often found together, just not interspersed or alternating between each other in small numbers.  Few railroads can afford to or have chosen to replace all ties in all tracks with concrete ties at the same time over their entire system or even the same region or division, so it's common to see a main track with concrete ties, and sidings with wood ties, and so on.  For a while - many years - even Amtrak along its the NorthEast Corridor had 1 or 2 main tracks with concrete ties, and another parallel 1 or 2 main tracks with wood ties. 

When concrete ties were first started to be used on a large scale in North America - I beleive it was on the western main lines of CN - they were mainly installed only in the sharper curves of the main tracks, because the wood ties there were becoming 'spike-killed' from the frequent change-outs and replacements of the rail.  So the result was tangents and shallow or broader curves with wood ties, alternating with sharper curves with concrete ties.  But each section would be several hundred to several thousand feet long at minimum, and preferable several miles to several dozen miles long.  

Concrete ties are never installed on a 'spot' basis of 1 or 2 at a time or in a row, with wood ties between them,  There can be shorter installations - I've done or seen some as short as 100 yds. or so in special circumstances such as for heat resistance in coal car thaw sheds, chemical resistance in certain facilities, greater track stiffness approaching bridges, etc. - but those are more the exceptions than the general rule, and even there the goal is to be consistent and uniform with the tie type for as long a distance as possible. 

The underlying reason is that track with concrete ties is like 2 to 3 times heavier and much stiffer than track with wood ties, so the 'dynamic response' and motion of the track under load and hence the stresses in each element of the track structure - esp. the rails and the subgrade - is much different with each type of tie, and it's not desirable to mix them up to avoid overloads, more stress 'reversals', etc. 

Additionally, to properly install concrete ties requires that the subgrade be properly prepared, which usually means excavating the old ballast and some of the sub-ballast or subgrade, and then replacing them with new, clean material.  Those operations are best and more economically performed on a large scale over long distances, so 'one tie at a time' is just not cost-effective .  And as long as that operation is being set-up anyway, you may as well just go ahead and replace all of the wood ties in that area with concrete ties while you're at it. 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:31 AM

So, that then, would account for increased fuel consumption on the downhill-- the dynamic braking? That's what I suspected but I'm still a fledgling.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:24 AM

I got an answer, thanks.

The UP coal train (C701 load & C702 empty) had not left Green Bay yet when I saw the two units on the Push/Pull.  It did, however depart within a couple hours of the P/P getting back to GB. 

I also believe Carl is right on Dynamic Braking.  DB loses effectiveness as train speed trends towards zero and requires the engine to throttle up while braking.  Where's Jeff, or Max, or Ed...Zug?...when we need them?

Dan

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Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:05 AM

I know!  I know!  (But I'll let Nance answer, if she wants to.)

Dan, are these UP units used in a way that will get them back to Green Bay when their train is ready for them (unloaded)?  We used to do that quite a bit with foreign power waiting for its train to be made up and ready to go home.  It was a pain in the posterior, but they used some CN road power as a hump set once.  It couldn't go over the hump and through the retarders, because the snowplows wouldn't clear the retarders.  Quite often I'd see NS power switching in Global 2.  CSX stuff didn't seem to get used as often...not sure whether that's a commentary on their condition or just on timing.

I'm not the expert here, Nance, but I believe that dynamic braking requires higher engine r.p.m.s to run the fans that dissipate the heat generated. 

Dan's right--you won't see wooden ties and concrete ties mixed, though you might see wooden ties under a switch or other such trackwork in the middle of concrete-tie territory.

I know that curves are a pain, because they increase rolling resistance.  If you're climbing a grade and encounter a curve, the grade will be less steep to compensate for the resistance in the curve.

I don't think it's being done too much these days, but sometimes railroads will rebuild the trackage in a certain area just to reduce the curvature.  I recall going across Utah over the Rio Grande's main line back in 1988, and could see where the line had been before, and much sharper curves along those old rights-of-way.  The land over which we were traveling was relatively flat, and I couldn't really see why they had to use the older route in the first place, but I'm not a Mudchicken.





Carl

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CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:18 AM

Morning everyone!

I finally got around to processing a couple pictures from Tuesday.  It seems that CN's been borrowing the UP power on the Green Bay coal trains lately.

Rear unit of NB train:
UP 6681 on A416

Lead unit of NB train:
UP 7202 North at Shawano Junction

It's nice to see Armor Yellow & Harbor Mist Grey again...

Nancy,
I'm not an expert, but I believe that the concrete/wooden ties are generally not used together.  You'll see one or the other because they use different methods to attach them to the rails.  What does your signature mean?  Smile, Wink & Grin

Dan

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:48 AM

Thanks, Carl; I really appreciate that!

TO make it easier, I thought I'd re-post my earlier questions, if anybody's bored and looking for something to do.(edited bc I have certain answers.)


"Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties.

1. Re: grades

   (a. & b.  answered already)

    c. It says that going down grades leads to increased fuel consumption. Don't you save fuel going down hill? Is this something to do with dynamic braking?

2. Curves-- UGH!! I don't have questions bc I don't understand enough of any of it to have any yet!! (I did well in school but Math was NOT my strongest subject, for sure.) Can someone pls simplify this into what is necessary info, on a practical level. Thankfully, I will not be designing or building RR's, etc. I just need a basic understanding.

3. Ties:

a. It states that ties are either 8'6" long or 9' long? Anybody know the story with this? Are both sizes common, etc? Adv/disadv, etc?

b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they 'mutually exclusive?'

Thanks, folks."

Make it a good day.


Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:56 PM

Thank you Johnny!

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by CShaveRR on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:10 PM

Johnny, it sure seems like New Orleans would be the 0.0 point for this line, and I guess Freeport would be the north end. 

 

 

Nance, I'll try to tackle your questions now.  Keep in mind that these are generalizations.

1.  M.U. stands for Multiple Unit.  This system, using one large cable and three or four pneumatic hoses running between locomotives, allows all locomotives in a consist to be controlled by one engineer.

     DP is distributed power--kind of like M.U., except that there can be more than one consist (two, or three) scattered along the length of the train, all controlled by one engineer.  The DP consists don't have to do the same thing as the lead locomotives (in basic M.U., all locomotives do the same thing--or they're supposed to!).

     Helpers could, I suppose, be DP units, but they're basically added to a train for a small portion of the run, to assist trains in getting up (and down, with braking help) long or steep grades.  These helpers can be on the front or the rear of a train, they can be a single unit or an m.u.ed consist, but they usually have an engineer of their own.

2.  Not correct.  Slugs have no engines in them, booster units have their own prime movers.  Booster, or "B", or "calf" units, have no cabs.  Slugs may or may not have cabs, but they lack prime movers (engines) and generators.  Both boosters and slugs have traction motors to provide power to their wheels, and they are operated by being m.u.ed to locomotives.  More cables are needed to connect to slugs, because they are providing energy from the locomotives' generator.  Slugs with cabs can be used to control consists.  At times, slugs can also provide additional dynamic braking power, and have also been equipped to provide more fuel to the controlling locomotive.

3.  Everybody has his own practice when it comes to dealing with the numbers on cars (or locomotives, for that matter).  Yes, I write fast and furious sometime, and a fellow researcher and I have been known to divide responsibility (he looks for one thing, I for another) and compare notes later.  Some people seem to photograph car after car in a train.  When I'm taking notes on cars, I don't wind up with a complete consist for the train--I just have notes on whatever of interest I can gather about cars in a particular series that's new to me, or needed to break down a series by certain characteristics--lessee, commodity handled, or something like that.  But once I have the information I need on a certain car (a TBOX box car for example), that series is done.  I can look up the limits of the series, and the cars' dimensions and capacity, on line.  There are things I can't look up online unless some other freight-car freak has recorded these cars:  builder [and lot number, if possible] and date, paint schemes and variations, prior owners and their numbers--all stuff that would be helpful to a freight car historian.  We have certain tricks of the trade to find out some of this information.  Most freight cars display some characteristic that helps identify who built them.  Former numbers can sometimes be seen under the paint, on the center sills of the cars (where they often forget to paint them out), or even by "scanning" old ACI labels (one of my favorite tricks)!  Right now I'm going through literally hundreds of pages of notes, putting them coherently into computer files--stuff that I didn't really have time to do when I was gainfully employed.  Now that I'm not working, I'm not gathering as much data and I'm slowly catching up.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 8:29 PM

WMNB4THRTL

"If you want to see some strange looks, just watch the trackside crowd whenever restored Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 No. 4449 lets loose with the horn instead of the whistle."

Then there was the time I was waiting on SOU RR's Crescent to come by just north of Atlanta and I heard a steam whistle. Nearly wet my pants until I saw it was SOU 6901 leading that had a steam whistle installed and the engineer was having a great time using it. (was in warm weather so I suppose that there was no concern in using up all the boiler water in the 4 E - units ?)

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:53 PM

mudchicken

Anyone have an old (pre-1980) Illinois Central employee timetable and can tell me the mileposts and stations between Vandalia & Centralia in Illinois? (website that has it is on the fritz)

How about 4/29/51 Clinton district for Vandalia to Branch Jct., and 7/11/43 Champaign District for Branch Jct. to Centralia?

Vandalia-689.9; Shobonier-683.3; Vernon-678.8; Patoka-675.2; Fairman-670.1; Sandoval-665.6; Glen Ridge-663.3; Branch Jct.-662.0; Centralia-659.6

Branch Jct.-249.9; Centralia-252.2

What would have been the 0.0 MP for the line up to Freeport? New Orleans, via Jackson, Tenn.?

Johnny

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:39 PM

Good evening! Tonight's a rather light load in the questions dept, I think. (aahhh...)

1. Will someone pls explain MU; DPU; and helpers. I've almost got these down, I think. (My apologies to Larry and the other nice gentleman who recently helped me with MU; I can't find that older post. Sorry.)

2. Are slugs and boosters the same thing, right? Just 2 different names?

3. Carl, or anyone else for that matter, when you talk about these car numbers, do you shoot each one, or just learn to write really, really fast??!! Smile, Wink & Grin

Anybody looking for something to do, I still have some questions from last night's lesson.WinkThanks! Take care.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by CShaveRR on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:09 PM

Right, Brian...TCMX.  The two reporting marks belong to the same company, and I look up my files on them using "CEFX".

The series for your cars is TCMX 12402-12541, 140 cars.  They came from JAIX series 96100-96249 (150 cars).  None of the JAIX cars are left, so I haven't gotten a number-to-number correlation figured out.

Yes, aluminum was used to decrease the tare weight of the cars, increasing the load limit,  Your typical grain car these days has a capacity of 5200 cubic feet (or a little less, depending on the builder); these cars have 5420.

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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Posted by blhanel on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:39 PM

CShaveRR

Those covered hoppers are unusual in that they're made of aluminum.  Even aluminum covered hoppers aren't too uncommon, but cars like this, intended for the transportation of grain, are.  Off the top of my head, I can think of only three fleets:  Staley (now Tate & Lyle), Cargill, and these.  These CEFX cars used to be owned by Johnstown America (JAIX Leasing, specifically).  I checked my records, and don't have the series--either old or new--fleshed out yet, so I can't say much more than that they were in a JAIX 96000 series previously.  The "96" in those JAIX numbers suggests the year in which they were built.

Actually, they're TCMX- they're much easier to read over on rrpicturearchives than via the link here.  It also doesn't help that I used my cell phone to get the photo.  The one fully in the center of the shot is TCMX 12489, and the one off to the right is TCMX 12494.  Was aluminum used because it's lighter?  At any rate, they look pretty cool.

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:16 PM

Anyone have an old (pre-1980) Illinois Central employee timetable and can tell me the mileposts and stations between Vandalia & Centralia in Illinois? (website that has it is on the fritz)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west

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