Brian, you're right--I didn't see that picture until today.
Those covered hoppers are unusual in that they're made of aluminum. Even aluminum covered hoppers aren't too uncommon, but cars like this, intended for the transportation of grain, are. Off the top of my head, I can think of only three fleets: Staley (now Tate & Lyle), Cargill, and these. These CEFX cars used to be owned by Johnstown America (JAIX Leasing, specifically). I checked my records, and don't have the series--either old or new--fleshed out yet, so I can't say much more than that they were in a JAIX 96000 series previously. The "96" in those JAIX numbers suggests the year in which they were built.
Nance, can't wait to hear about your signature!
Poor grandson Nico--never can get what he'd like at a restaurant. Two weeks ago he wanted eggnog at Five Guys; today he wanted edamame at Juicy-O, a basic breakfast/lunch place.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Thanks, Larry for all that good info.
Thanks, Johnny. I guess that's not quite as 'dumb' as I was afraid it could have been/was--esp. since the diesel I'm most familiar with has a 'steam engine' whistle on it. Also, they have a 'peanut' whistle mounted on the caboose. Have a good day everyone.
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
WMNB4THRTL OK, it seems like this might be embarrassing that I have to ask this, but I do! Trains' article on horns contains this: "If you want to see some strange looks, just watch the trackside crowd whenever restored Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 No. 4449 lets loose with the horn instead of the whistle." I thought the horn was the same as the whistle, just two different names?! Oh, dear!
OK, it seems like this might be embarrassing that I have to ask this, but I do!
Trains' article on horns contains this:
"If you want to see some strange looks, just watch the trackside crowd whenever restored Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 No. 4449 lets loose with the horn instead of the whistle."
I thought the horn was the same as the whistle, just two different names?! Oh, dear!
And, while on the subject of horns and whistles, some roads had quite pleasant sounding whistles, such as those on the N&W J's, and some had those that were not so pleasant sounding, such as those on the N&W A's (that is my opinion of the whistle on an A). And some roads have quite pleasant sounding horns, such as those on Amtrak's engines, and some had horrible sounding horns, such as the peanut whistles on the Georgia Railroad's diesels.
Johnny
Hey Carl, I posted a pic for you yesterday, but I think you missed it due to working up a post of your own.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
I finally got my pictures edited and posted from this weekends (mis)advendures in my neck of the woods. I put up a thread if anyone's bored.
Supposed to start getting colder here soon, just in time for the Packers/Bears NFC Championship Game. Should be a good one!
Dan
Hello all.....
Not much new from the road, have seen a few NS trains in Virginia and West Virginia, but was concentrating on keeping 46,000lb of beer upright and straight in the trailer, while running 65-70mph in a snowstorm on the West Virginia Turnpike. Not an easy task.....
Carl, usually when the roads start getting snow-covered, it's time to find a place to park and let all the idiots run their course, I don't need to be a target for them.....
Playing in traffic near you today, Carl, three stops at grocery warehouses, dropping off cups......
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
You've got some Mudchicken questions there - hopefully he'll chime in.
On helper placement - see the article in Trains a few months ago about 'distributed power.' The only real difference between a helper and a DPU is how it's controlled. Helpers are manned, DPU aren't, since they're run by remote control by the engineer on the lead unit.
That said - pulling and pushing helpers (front and rear) could usually be cut off fairly easily - the exception being trains having cabooses that could not handle being pushed on. Sometimes it was even done 'on the fly' (without stopping). Mid-train helpers necessarily require the train to be stopped to add or remove power, so they would likely be more common if help was needed over a significant portion of the line. Thus if a train only needed help for a relatively short portion of it's trip (ie, one steep hill with the rest of the line comparatively flat), the helper would go on the front or rear.
Front or rear placement was often governed by drawbar forces. The couplers on the head end of the train might not be able to handle pulling the entire train if the helper were at the head end.
On doubling - I've seen fairly recent accounts about doubling/tripling. IIRC it's usually been a shortline. While there were undoubtedly railroads that made it a practice in certain locations it's more likely that it was a matter of not enough power being allocated to the train or more train than usual overwhelming the assigned power.
Helpers cost money - if a line required only occasional help, it might be cheaper to simply double the hill than to call a helper crew.
Doubling a hill requires that there be a place at/over the top of the hill where the locomotive can leave the entire train while it backs down to pick up the remainder - a siding.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Great, thanks Larry!
Tonight's study has been about grades, curves, ties.
1. Re: grades, it talks about helper locos.
a. Does it matter whether they put the helper in front, middle, rear position? Are there adv/disadv for each?
b. It says if helpers are unavail., then they might double or triple the hill. Is that still done today, and if so, where and maybe why? Would that be better (cheaper?) than using a helper?
c. It says that going down grades leads to increased fuel consumption. Don't you save fuel going down hill? Is this something to do with dynamic braking?
2. Curves-- UGH!! I don't have questions bc I don't understand enough of any of it to have any yet!! (I did well in school but Math was NOT my strongest subject, for sure.) Can someone pls simplify this into what is necessary info, on a practical level. Thankfully, I will not be designing or building RR's, etc. I just need a basic understanding.
3. Ties:
a. It states that ties are either 8'6" long or 9' long? Anybody know the story with this? Are both sizes common, etc? Adv/disadv, etc?
b. Are concrete and wooden ties ever found on the same line/road together, perhaps in different sections, or are they mutually exclusive?
Thanks, folks.
WMNB4THRTLP.S.S. Anyone know the differences between GCOR and NORAC?
I'd have to say that all of the rulebooks are essentially the same, but, of course, the devil is in the details.
I work under NORAC (Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee). CSX has its own rulebook, of which I have a recent copy. I've never really gotten a look at the GCOR book.
In looking through the CSX rulebook, I'm not seeing significant differences in the general stuff - only in the railroad specific stuff (CSX uses the "EC-1" for track authority - NORAC uses the "Form D.").
THIS one I think I can help you with! This website's "Railroading Glossary" says, and I quote,
I've always thought that ABS was automatic block signals as well. I know that there was a time when CNW wanted us to regard all of the block signals in toward the city as absolute signals--they just took the number plates off them.
Paul_D_North_Jr Johnny - Thanks for the clarifications on the locations of the UP's apparent Left-Hand running. I was thinking of a photo of a UP gas-electric turbine coming out of a tunnel and then going under a substantial bridge that carried another UP track over top of it, where the caption indicated such. But that long ago, it make have been so then, but changed since ??? Glad you got that attempt at humor, too ! A possible point of confusion: The Absolute signs on the signals are not to indicate to the crews that they are in Absolute Block [signal] System - ABS - territory; instead, it's to indicate that particular signal is an Absolute "Stop and Stay Stopped" signal, in a territory where there might be Permissive signals. Now that leads to a question I never thought of before: In Absolute Block System territory, can there properly be a Permissive "Stop and then Proceed Slowly" signal and indication ? Or is that wholly inconsistent with the theory and basis of the ABS system's concept ? I don't have time to look it up myself right now, but maybe now that Nance is really digging into this stuff, she might know or could . . . - Paul North.
Johnny -
Thanks for the clarifications on the locations of the UP's apparent Left-Hand running. I was thinking of a photo of a UP gas-electric turbine coming out of a tunnel and then going under a substantial bridge that carried another UP track over top of it, where the caption indicated such. But that long ago, it make have been so then, but changed since ???
Glad you got that attempt at humor, too !
A possible point of confusion: The Absolute signs on the signals are not to indicate to the crews that they are in Absolute Block [signal] System - ABS - territory; instead, it's to indicate that particular signal is an Absolute "Stop and Stay Stopped" signal, in a territory where there might be Permissive signals.
Now that leads to a question I never thought of before: In Absolute Block System territory, can there properly be a Permissive "Stop and then Proceed Slowly" signal and indication ? Or is that wholly inconsistent with the theory and basis of the ABS system's concept ? I don't have time to look it up myself right now, but maybe now that Nance is really digging into this stuff, she might know or could . . .
- Paul North.
As to the UP's operation east of Ogden, I last saw it about two years ago, and it was still double track, with the tracks not always side by side (the terrain prohibits that), and with one track crossing over the other here and there. As you come out of Ogden US 89, you can see an eb train on what looks to be the wb track (and vice-versa), and this continues a good bit of the way towards Evanston. I doubt that it would be easy to convert this operation to two track, just as the ATSF operation cannot be so converted.
You find the same situation on The Hill (Donner Pass). (Thirty-nine years ago, we were heading for San Francisco on the San Francisco Zephyr as we were taking the train from Ogden to Salt Lake City by way of Oakland and Denver, and I saw the eb train passing overhead at one point as we went down towards Sacramento.)
Paul, you are/were in my territory? Doggone it, you're supposed to let me know so I can welcome you appropriately! (Missed that, Johnny, but I did hear Mudchicken say something about Paul being around him.)
Nance, I don't know that there are hard-and-fast statements about what's big enough to derail a train. I suspect, though that there may be one: the harder the object and the faster the train, the more likely things will go kitty-whompus (that's an official railroader term, by the way)!
I know that a misplaced retarder beam is good for a derailment, and a coupler knuckle in the wrong place will do it as well.
As for the welded-rail trains, I've seen them unloaded, and that's basically the way it's done--the replacement rail goes outside along the track until it's ready to be installed. I think there was an end-on picture or two of a welded-rail train somewhere on the Forum here recently, along with a question about buffer cars when welded rail is being transported. Mudchicken did a pretty good job then of explaining how the rail was anchored and other such information.
CShaveRR I saw a MERX covered hopper car.
I saw a MERX covered hopper car.
Speaking of interesting covered hoppers, I saw a line of a type that I had not previously seen sitting near the Quaker plant Sunday. They looked so nice I had to stop and take a picture:
Anything special, Carl?
I seem to be obsessed with this 'RR learning' thing now, but hey, that can't be all bad, right? This a.m., I've been working on rail, ballast, etc. I think (hope) I have the 'ballast' part down OK, but the 'rail' part has raised some questions:
1. It told about special trains that carry 1/4 mile long segments of CWR from dedicated plants to the job site (paraphrased, not quoted). Then the train is pulled out from under it to unload. Does anyone know of or have pics of one of these? I imagine that is some sight to behold?!
2. How much, in terms of debris, would it take to derail a train? I mean, I know a pebble wouldn't do it, and I'm not asking for exact info, as I'm sure we don't know exactly. I'm looking for a 'practical-type' answer, as in 'if you see a good-sized tree branch across a rail, you'd better get your train stopped before you reach it' type of thing, if that makes sense.
Anyway, gotta get ready to run out for just a bit. Stay warm & safe everybody.
P.S. Paul, looks like we posted at the same time. I'll probably have to see about it when I get back. My guess at this point is, that's gonna be way out of my league.
Paul_D_North_Jr Bottom line: Each railroad's signals and current practice may vary from other railroads, and from its own prior practices, over time. It seems that unlike with signals, there are no 'absolutes' here . . . - Paul North.
That "I" is new to me, also. Railroading just doesn't stand still, does it? I wonder, are there so many new employees in road service that they have to be told by such a sign that they are not in absolute signal territory? Gone are the days of apprenticeship served as brakemen and firemen.
Thanks, Paul for the assistance, and to the rest of you, too.
Gee, Paul don't act THAT shocked that I was right!
Paul, I'm tackling the 'ABC's of RR'ing' right now and (mostly) when done, I'll dive into the Glossary next. I do cross reference into there now though, as needed for clarity.
Looks like we drew a 'lucky' card in the weather dept today; I think/hope we're gonna miss the worst of the 'partially frozen precip.' I'm thankful, since I need to travel to medical appt. today. Nance
By golly, Nance, that is what the article on Railroad Signals as linked above does say: [emphasis added - PDN]
"There are two types of signals, permissive and absolute. You can tell if a signal is permissive or absolute by looking at it. The rules vary by railroad, but permissive signals usually have a number plate on the base of the mast on which they're mounted, or the letter "I". Absolute signals do not have the number plate or will have the letter "A". The location of the signal is also often a clue to its type."
I had never before seen a reference to the letter "I" for a permissive signal - perhaps it stands for "Intermediate", which is how the block signals between interlockings/ CP's are referred to on some railroads, and are the only type of signals where a "Stop & Proceed" indication would be acceptable ?
The "G" and "P" can be found in the following from the Glossary of Railroad Signal Terms as also linked above:
Grade signal: A permissive signal used along a steep climb and identified by both a number plate and a plate with the letter "G." The governing rule is usually that a full-tonnage train climbing the grade may pass a grade signal indicating stop without stopping. Grade signals are used to keep heavy trains moving under conditions where the stopping distance is greatly reduced by the hill and restarting would be difficult.
Permissive signal: A signal whose "stop" indication means "stop and proceed at restricted speed." Usually identified by a number plate, some permissive signals also have a plate with the letter "P," indicating that a train may pass the signal indicating stop without stopping but at restricted speed.
Bottom line: Each railroad's signals and current practice may vary from other railroads, and from its own prior practices, over time. It seems that unlike with signals, there are no 'absolutes' here . . .
OK, I'm a little confused bc the article says "permissive have number plate, (possibly 'and/or'?) letter I; absolute have no number plate, letter A." No mention was made of G, P, etc. (Yes, Paul, that's where all this is coming from.)
Oh, on an unrelated note, what does 'CAASCCOCOM' and other variations mean on people's signature lines?
Thanks again, guys.
Nance, remember a couple of days ago when we were talking about interlockings, or control points? How they were set up so that two trains couldn't be cleared on conflicting or converging routes? Think about it--a system like that couldn't work unless the most restrictive signal meant "stop and stay".
Now, think about a block signal system. It serves two purposes: first, to keep trains separated from each other. Second, to keep trains moving. So if you encounter a red signal that isn't at a control point, they want you to be able to continue moving until you encounter a reason to stop--i.e., another train. You do what the signal tells you to, but the important thing is that you move beyond it at Restricted Speed--the big thing about that is that you are able to stop short of a train, engine, obstruction, or a switch not properly lined.
In fact, nowadays, "stop and proceed" is becoming a thing of the past on many railroads--you encounter a red signal that isn't an interlocking signal, and you proceed at Restricted Speed. It's like the rules have been rewritten to make all of these signals the same as if they'd had a "P" or a "G" on the mast.
As Paul said, the Chicago & North Western was the poster child for left-handed operation, and at one time it was far more than the commuter areas. Nearly any line that had double track territory required trains to keep to the left (unless it was inherited from a predecessor line)--that included the line to Council Bluffs, both lines to Milwaukee, and the line beyond there to the Twin Cities. If you want to see a left-handed rail operation that has nothing whatsoever to do with passenger operation, you need go no further than Chicagoland, where the "freight line" from Proviso around O'Hare to Gurnee is run left-handed--and always has been. Trains of the Canadian Pacific run over this line from Bryn Mawr (by the airport) to Shermer (junction with the Amtrak route to Milwaukee), and they keep left, too.
[quote user="Paul_D_North_Jr"]
1. Yes, you're way off base; no, they didn't have special locos made. What that term usually means is that when there are 2 or more tracks, a train proceeding in the direction you're looking is on the left-hand track - just like over in England, where they drive on the left-hand side of the road, the opposite of how we do it here. Most railroads in North America with multiple tracks would have the train on the right-hand track(s), viewed in the direction the train is heading, the same as we normally drive on the right-hand side of a 2-lane road.
Actually, i'm a little surprised that would be said about the Santa Fe - I understand from K.P. Harrier and some articles in Trains a few years ago that was done on certain segments, mainly where line relocations occurred which put the new main track on a different alignment on the opposite side of where it would normally be expected or placed - but not as a general or system-wide preference. I believe that occurred in western Arizona and on Cajon Pass, as well as on segments of the UP on Sherman Hill, but not many other places. The traditional 'poster child' for "left-hand running" was some of the C&NW's double-track commuter lines out of Chicago.
Yes, Paul, I did not think that the segments of the Santa Fé track that have the directions reversed from what you would expect are actually considered left hand running. The UP has such track between Evanston, Wy., and Ogden as well as in other areas; I do not think that Sherman Hill really enters into this, since the segment with two tracks is two track, and not double track; the ten mile longer line that was constructed in the early fifties for westbound traffic only is more or less (to me) a different animal--and I have been up that line on a passenger train, in 1974.
Those 2 systems are commonly on the same railroad - the Permissive signals are usually indicated by a number plate or the letter "G" on them for "Grade" to avoid making a struggling train have to stop and restart.
Do (did) not the signals with a "G" also have numbers? As I recall, a passenger train was required to stop and proceed, but a heavy freight was not (at least that was what the 1943 Southern rule book indicated).
Nance - While the Eighth Edition has been superceded by the Ninth, you might find the information beginning on page 55 of the NORAC Rules informative (and/or the source of more questions).
While there are differences between railroads, and even between locales (some signal aspects are location specific), you'll find that the information is fairly universal.
2. It probably did lead to mistakes, but the rules for the "Proceed" part are usually at "Restricted Speed" as it's defined on that railroad, perpared to stop short of another train, broken rail, misaligned switch, or other obstruction on the track, etc., so the opportunity for disaster was very small.
EDIT: However, the 'home' or closest signals at Interlockings/ Control Points are always "Absolute", because passing those could very well lead to a collision - they're often Red for a reason there !
EDIT: It's kind of like the railroad version of "Right-Turn on Red" - you are permittted to do that if safe, but don't go straight thru the intersection on a red light !
The "different signal practices on a foreign line" is how it is, but that's why the engineer has to be qualified and tested on the foreign line's signal rules, too. That issue and the opportunity for a nightmare has been 'beat to death' several times here over the past couple of years . . .
I'll also see what Al Krug and/ or the "ABC's of Railroading" below may have to say about either of these.
P.S. - See those terms in the Glossary of Signal Terms here at:
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Glossary%20of%20railroad%20signal%20terms.aspx
Also, the article on Railroad Signals here, at:
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Railroad%20signals.aspx
After skimming through that article, I now see where your questions originated - so I hope my explanations above were helpful.
Although likely overwhelming to you at this stage, see also the very thorough and detailed explanation of Railroad Signals by AL Krug at:
http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/signals/signals.htm
- PDN.
OK, so one of today's study topics has been 'signals.' I have (so far) two questions:
1. Under that heading, it says, "On Santa Fe, left-hand running was the norm..." Does that mean the engineer sat on the left side of the loco, or am I way off base here? If it was, then they had special locos made for that?
2. It says a red permissive means stop and then proceed; a red absolute means stop and stay stopped!! Doesn't, or at least didn't, this lead to mistakes or do these 2 different systems NEVER appear on the same RR? Actually though, come to think of it, if an engineer traveled onto another adjacent .'foreign' line, couldn't that be a problem? Seems like a nightmare waiting to happen, no?
Thanks again for helping me. Nance
Nice catch yourself Carl. I've been paying more attention to details like built dates and other minutiae as of late. It's an interesting distraction, I can see why you like that!
Still waiting on L576 and B79041-14 to get in my neck of the woods. I may just go N/NW to see what I can see. Thank goodness I have 4x4 if I need it...usually to get out of the way of those that don't!
Yup, and you're sending it on to us for tomorrow!
Gee, thanks!! What a guy!!
Yes, congratulations, Dan! That's quite a milestone.
I heard about that New York weather already from Larry ("Tree 68"), Nance. While you folks are shivering there, we're going to get up close to freezing today. The trouble with that is that something is supposed to fall from the sky today--this morning it was a bit of snow, but this afternoon and evening may bring the nasty stuff. I don't think we'll make it all the way up to rain. Thankfully, we don't have to go anywhere before tomorrow.
I accomplished a little yesterday, too, but not in the best sort of way. I saw a MERX covered hopper car. My correspondents tell me that MERX is not listed in the January 2011 Official Railway Equipment Register, so I don't know whose it is now, in spite of the fact that I can trace it back to two prior owners (not counting the many incarnations of the original owner, Gulf Oil Company). There may be other MERX cars, but only five exist in this series--so I feel kind of lucky. (Anyone who says that MERX is operated by MERCO or the Merchants Despatch Transportation Corporation, thanks very much, but that's old info, and the reporting mark has been reassigned.)
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