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Trackside Lounge: 1Q 2011

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:17 PM

Nancy, since a locomotive number was a definite identification of a particular locomotive, it was always given, along with the train number when a train order was sent to the conductor and engineer of a particular train. Thus everybody concerned knew exactly which train(s) was/were affected by a particular train order.  I do not know if locomotive numbers are used in issuing track warrants (if nobody responds on this thread, I may post the query on the thread about Train Orders and Track Warrants).

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:04 PM

  Fantastic, Carl; thanks a bunch! I hope you both have a fantastic rest of your trip. Happy train- and quilt- hunting!!

  I'm so happy to be learning all this!!This is wonderful.

  Be safe out there. Nancy

  PS Oh, no!! I only did it once bc I was mistaken. I'll get busy and get back to my contacts to tell them, too! Finger crossed, here' hoping!! It's my best chance of getting to see it, too.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 15, 2011 9:10 PM

I keep forgetting things I wanted to say.  Dan, it sounds like I couldn't possibly have gotten up early enough to catch that train of ore empties.  We actually did see a northbound (westbound) train on the old EJ&E this morning (where it ducks under I-55), and my hopes were up for about a second, but it was a manifest.  Moving right along, though!

Carl

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Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:12 PM

Oh, and Nance, you can vote for your favorite UP steam route once per day.  Little Rock is ahead again, as of now.

Carl

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Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:03 PM

I'm ensconced in a snug hotel room in Peoria now, after a lovely wedding.  Both of my sisters (one is the mother of the groom) are in this hotel as well, and we'll probably get together for breakfast in the morning before heading our separate ways.  My daughter and her family are in a hotel some distance away from ours, but I swear I can still hear those kids running around!  Plenty of chocolate as table favors, three kinds of cake, and no naps.  They have to leave the earliest and get home in time for the Bears' kickoff.

Nancy, if there aren't too many trains on a line, you might be able to figure it out from railfan-oriented web sites for a given railroad.  A while back we linked to the listing of CSX schedules; I'm pretty sure other sites exist for the other major railroads.  From a source like that, you can usually figure out which trains will be on your line.  If there are too many to narrow the best way of telling which train is which is to have a scanner and listen to radio transmissions involving the train in question.  Once you know the number of the train for sure, you might be able to note pecuiiarities of the train, such as the type of cars it carries, or the time of day (or days of the week) it appears. 

Locomotive numbers don't have a bearing on the train numbers, though you may find out eventually that certain trains rate certain types of locomotives.  And, armed with a scanner, you'll find that the dispatcher often refers to trains by the number of their lead unit.  And knowing the number of the lead unit makes people with cameras go crazy, especially if it's one they haven't seen before.  Right, Dan?

Dynamic braking:  switchers are unlikely to have this (there were some very rare exceptions).  In most cases it is not automatic--an engineer has to consciously make the switch from throttle to dynamic brakes--it's impossible to do both at once.  Older diesels with dynamic brakes used the throttle lever to control them; sometime in the 1970s or so they were given a lever of their own on the control stand.  No, your S4 doesn't have it.  There are some instances--Metra's passenger units are one--in which the dynamic brakes and air brakes work together to slow or stop the train.


As I mentioned before, tomorrow will be a day for railroad research.  We have found the right road out of town (Pat and I visited a quilt store on that road today), and we'll go north from Peoria, checking out the new UP-BNSF connection at Edelstein (I guess it's a few years old now), and go on north along UP's Peoria Subdivision to its junction with the main line at Nelson.  Then we'll go east, making a stop for dinner and a stop at Rochelle (most likely not at the same time, but who knows?).  If it goes true to form, we'll see plenty of trains, but none of them will be where we can stop and scrutinize them.  And some eastbound intermodal trains will be moving faster than we are.


We know most of the roads between Rochelle and home to follow the tracks closely, and we'll be doing that for as long as the daylight lasts.  Around here in Peoria, we will be guided by the DeLorme atlas for Illinois, so we shouldn't miss too much.

Carl

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:22 PM

  Great; thanks! I appreciate that.

  How do you know what number a certain train is? Also, loco's numbers have no bearing on anything, right? I guess a lot of the rest will 'come with the territory,' huh?

   Also can somebody please help me with 'dynamic braking?' Does it happen automatically within the engine or...? Does a 1956 Alco S4 have/do this? As you might be able to tell, or maybe not so much, Big Smile I've been going through all the FANtastic info available on this website to learn all I can. If I look it up, and am still confused, I ask for help.

   Thanks again. Nancy

PS I'm grateful you folks are not annoyed at having to review 'Railroading 101' with me, but I figure there must be others who don't know all this, too!

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:15 PM

Nancy, welcome to the forums.Welcome. As you have seen already, we are a friendly bunch, and are glad to share what information we have gathered in our years of following railroad operations whether as employees or non-employees.

An observation about basic train numbers: it used to be that trains simply had one, two or three-digit numbers, but now the long train numbers give a great deal more information about a train, particularly a freight train, as Dan pointed out.

As to direction of operation information, it depends upon the railroad itself. As Dan indicated, an odd-numbered train on his part of the CN is northbound--but if you are looking at the former Illinois Central operations (also CN now), an odd-numbered train is southbound or westbound. In general, southbound or westbound trains were given odd numbers and eastbound or northbound trains were given even numbers (but on the Southern Pacific, all trains headed  to San Francisco had odd numbers, and all trains headed away from San Francisco had even numbers).

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:57 AM

  Yes, Dan; thanks a bunch!! Now, do you get this info off the scanner or how do you know this train passing by you is U781? Do the numbers on the loco ever factor into any of this or not? I'm thinking probably not but...what do I know?

  Thanks again, though. I'm anxious to learn all I can and grateful to anyone willing to take the time, energy, and effort to teach those who are new to the hobby. Nancy

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:46 AM

Nancy,

Great question (again).  The train U781 is a CN train I made the note about.  Each RR company does things a little differently. Some use letter/numbers (CN, CP, CSX, NS) and some use letters (mainly UP & BNSF).  I will attempt to convey the little I think I know about how this works-note I'm going from memory and I do not work for a RR, so subject to corrections/additions from those more knowledgable than I.

The whole train number is actually longer.  I will give you an example of one I'm familiar with.  The other day I took a picture of a northbound coal train that took a new crew at Shops (North Fond du Lac, WI) and went to Green Bay, WI.  The whole number was C70191-04.  A mouthful, right?  Let's break that down.  C means Coal; 701 tells you that, on CN, it's northbound (odd numbers go north, evens go south-generally speaking); the 7 means a unit train; 01 following the 7 tells me that its going to Green Bay; 9 is the area of origin (here I'm a little unsure of which area is what number but I know 9 is around my area); 1 is the section of train, in other words it's the first train going to this destination of this type from this location; 04 was the fourth of January.  Now, nobody is gonna go through all that gibberish over the radio and between friends in conversation...so it would very likely be referred to simply as C701.

Each place of origination/termination will have a different number.  I don't know what those are for each location.  Now, U781 was a Unit ore train empty.  781 is the return of train U780 (loads-going south).  Most trains run in some kind of pairing, like U780/U781.  Q198/Q199, M340/M341, M342/M343 etc are some common ones I see.  On CN "U" trains are unit trains (other than coal), "C" trains are unit coal, "Q" are quality or high priority service trains, "L" is a local, "A" & "M" are both types of manifest train but I'm not sure what they mean.

UP does things a little differently.  One example I think I know is the M-PRDM.  Manifest freight-PRoviso Yard, IL to Des Moines, IA.  The reverse would be M-DMPR.  It can be a little easier to follow.  BNSF uses three letters for their destinations.  For example a manifest freight from Barstow, CA to Memphis, TN would be a M-BARMEM.

Does that help?

Dan

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:23 AM

Can anyone please explain the train numbers to me? For example, Dan wrote about "U781." What do these numbers mean, if anything? Are they just assigned in a rather arbitrary manner by the RR's or do they have a specific meaning? If you see a specific number, can you tell right away it is a certain type of train? Thanks for your help. Nancy

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:16 AM

Carl & Jim,

U781 (ore empties) was O/S Neenah at around 5:20 this morning.  I was right on the # of days in the cycle...just hoping for a run later in the day.  Supposedly seven trains were run between 4 and 6 AM around Neenah...too early & cold for me.  It's a waiting game now.

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Posted by blhanel on Saturday, January 15, 2011 7:51 AM

Got my vote in this morning, and posted the obligatory reminder to my Facebook wall.  We shall overcome!

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, January 14, 2011 10:14 PM

 Oh, sorry. It's Nancy. I hope the Iowa, etc route wins!! I'm pretty sure we can only vote once, right? 

Nancy (a.k.a. Nance)

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Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, January 14, 2011 7:13 PM

Little Rock is ahead now; both have nearly 35,000 votes.

WMNB4THRTL, we try to refer to people by their real names in this thread, at least in passing.  Is it okay in your case?  (For example, "CNW6000" is Dan, "Zardoz" is Jim, etc.)  If not, we'll just keep using your Nom de Keyboard.

Carl

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, January 14, 2011 3:13 PM

Thanks, Carl, for that good reminder!! I had voted back before, when I saw your first post about it. I've passed it on, too, to try to get votes from others I know. Keep our fingers crossed and keep those votes going in for Iowa, etc route! Thanks!

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown

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Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, January 14, 2011 2:17 PM

I hope folks have been voting for their favorite route for a run in UP's steam program.  I guess this is especially a shout-out to the admirers of the "Tuscola Turn", which is to run from Boone, Iowa, on the Overland Route to Proviso, then (presumably via IHB) to the former C&EI and down to Tuscola.  And back, I presume, since they call it a "turn".  Anyway, this route, which had been 'way ahead in the totals, is now in a tie with the "Little Rock Express", from Kansas City through St. Louis to Little Rock.  Both had 32,757 votes, last time I checked.

I'm wondering, though...has it been said anywhere that one route chosen through this program are all that would be run in this season?  I was just thinking:  moving the train from Boone back to KC Junction, then down through Des Moines to Kansas City would make a good ferry move, if nothing else.

Carl

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, January 14, 2011 10:05 AM

CNW 6000
[snip]  This is another issue: the 800 number listed on the crossing rings for about two minutes then beeps and hangs up.  I now know to call CN's non-emergency 800 number but I'm willing to bet money that the motoring public (and even PD/FD) don't think to try that number. 

  That's even more scary !  Imagine the testimony and legal and financial results if someone tried to warn CN of a non-functional or malfunctioning crossing signal, a vehicle or other obstruction on the tracks,  or some other issue involving a moving train such as a shifted load or derailed car, etc. - and the 'No answer' resulted in a serious injury or death.  You'd be doing everyone a favor by mentioning that problem, too !

I agree with your bet - most people would say "The heck with it" - more likely that the dedicated public servants would recognize the problem and try some alternative method, but that takes time, too . . .

- Paul North. 

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Friday, January 14, 2011 9:12 AM

WMNB4THRTL

Great; thank you CNW! That does help a lot. I'd never seen one before, at least not that I remember/realized. Take care and everybody stay safe out there.

You're quite welcome.

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Friday, January 14, 2011 9:11 AM

Paul_D_North_Jr
  That reads like a very bad dip or defect in the track surface - perhaps caused by a combination of one or more of  a frost-heaved crossing, a low spot in the track next to it perhaps caused by a mud spot or hole, the track maybe being depressed by the wheels of the preceding car, and perhaps some other factors.  Can you recall - or go out and watch another couple trains go by - and tell us the following:

Which direction(s) - same or opposite ?

Speed ?

Does the entire track seem to go up and down - or just the wheels ?

Leading and/ or trailing trucks of the cars - and/ or the northern/ southern ends ?

All types of cars - center-beams and others - loads and/ or empties ?

Does it look like a mud spot ?  Is the snow and ballast all churned up there ?  Does it look like the ties are moving up and down ?

Here's a challenge: Any chance you could get a photo from the side showing this happening ?

Safety:  That's so serious, don't go closer than 100 ft. or so to the crossing if there's a moving train going over it to observe the above - use binoculars and/ or a long lens zoomed-in.

I would call it in to the 800 number posted on the grade crossing signals or equipment shed, and reference the 6-digit+1-letter USDOT/ FRA/ AAR grade crossing ID number that's on it, as well as any other data such as MP, street name or ID, etc.  Don't be too 'alarmist', but tell them what you think you saw, and reference the train number, date, time, direction, etc. and be prepared to give your name, address, and phone number, etc.

- Paul North.      

Paul,

I have seen this several times, unfortunately too early or late (dark) for pictures as my Canon cannon doesn't like nocturnal activities.  I'd have to be pretty close-the 100' thing probably won't work unless the parking lot just NE of the crossing is empty.  I've seen both NB & SB trains doing this, always on the East rail just S of the crossing, and most cars that are 50' or longer appear to be suceptable to it.  I'm surprised, frankly, that no crews have reported it as motors rock too.  From my lay person's observations of the RoW as seen from the sidewalk there doesn't appear to be mud/ballast churned there.  This weekend I'll see if I can get a picture.

This is another issue: the 800 number listed on the crossing rings for about two minutes then beeps and hangs up.  I now know to call CN's non-emergency 800 number but I'm willing to bet money that the motoring public (and even PD/FD) don't think to try that number.

Dan

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Friday, January 14, 2011 7:31 AM

Great; thank you CNW! That does help a lot. I'd never seen one before, at least not that I remember/realized. Take care and everybody stay safe out there.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, January 14, 2011 7:10 AM

CNW 6000
  [snip] Anyone with technical knowledge feel free to jump in here:
On A491 I saw a large string of empty centerbeam cars.  As the cars went around a minor bend in the rail the wheels on the outside truck actually lifted off the rails by what looked like 4-6 inches...both axles in the same truck.  For references here (http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=44.01760,-88.53152&z=17&t=S) is the crossing where I saw this.  Having never seen a pair of wheels on a freight car "get air" like this...and it wasn't just the centerbeams doing it...is that "ok" or normal? 

  That reads like a very bad dip or defect in the track surface - perhaps caused by a combination of one or more of  a frost-heaved crossing, a low spot in the track next to it perhaps caused by a mud spot or hole, the track maybe being depressed by the wheels of the preceding car, and perhaps some other factors.  Can you recall - or go out and watch another couple trains go by - and tell us the following:

Which direction(s) - same or opposite ?

Speed ?

Does the entire track seem to go up and down - or just the wheels ?

Leading and/ or trailing trucks of the cars - and/ or the northern/ southern ends ?

All types of cars - center-beams and others - loads and/ or empties ?

Does it look like a mud spot ?  Is the snow and ballast all churned up there ?  Does it look like the ties are moving up and down ?

Here's a challenge: Any chance you could get a photo from the side showing this happening ?

Safety:  That's so serious, don't go closer than 100 ft. or so to the crossing if there's a moving train going over it to observe the above - use binoculars and/ or a long lens zoomed-in.

I would call it in to the 800 number posted on the grade crossing signals or equipment shed, and reference the 6-digit+1-letter USDOT/ FRA/ AAR grade crossing ID number that's on it, as well as any other data such as MP, street name or ID, etc.  Don't be too 'alarmist', but tell them what you think you saw, and reference the train number, date, time, direction, etc. and be prepared to give your name, address, and phone number, etc.

- Paul North.      

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:59 PM

Slugs are still used in some cases for switching.  CN has used them in my neck of the woods (Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac, WI) and I believe Stevens Point, WI as well.  Basically a slug is a locomotive frame with the prime mover (diesel engine) removed and concrete or steel ballast in its place.  The traction motors & necessary control wiring are still in place and the unit is coupled to a locomotive that provides power to the traction motors.  I have pictures of two on my Flickr page which I'll link below.  I also have video of one being used for switching at Shops.
CN 0201

CN 0217

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6oFVyuo5y8

Hope that helps.

Carl,
If I can figure out if/when it's moving...I'll call ya.  Hopefully it'll be in time!

Dan

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Posted by WMNB4THRTL on Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:04 PM

   Oh, travel safely, Carl and enjoy. Happy train-hunting. 

   I have another question. I'm still trying to figure out the whole slugs and boosters thing. Do they look like a regular loco or...? Does anyone have a pic of one? Are they still commonly used or mostly a thing of the past? Thanks in advance.

Nance-CCABW/LEI 

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Posted by CShaveRR on Thursday, January 13, 2011 9:57 PM

I'd be extremely lucky if I caught the empties this weekend.  We're heading to Peoria Saturday morning (lunch date with kids and grandkids late morning, wedding in the evening), so if it's just left Joliet when we go over the tracks northwest of there, we might see it. 

Other'n that, no trains expected until Sunday.  I'm going to try to visit Edelstein and Rochelle on the way home.

Carl

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, January 13, 2011 7:37 PM

zardoz

Alas, no.  Way too cold out to drive 15 miles to see a train in the dark. However, I really appreciated the call. 

My wife & I are planning a visit to Appleton this Saturday (1/15) from about noon to 4pm.  I usually hang around Dale while the wife does the Mall.  If we are going to stop near Oshkosh, I'll give you a call.

Verrrry interesting.  My mother-in-law is taking our son for the weekend...and my wife works from 7-4 on Saturday & Sunday too.  The last few weeks Neenah has been seeing lots of trains during a couple of key windows & I have a very reliable "source" that helps narrow them down.  I plan on being trackside most of the day on Saturday and on Sunday, probably in or around Neenah.  FWIW we will probably be seeing an empty ore train Sat or Sun.  You've got my info...Smile, Wink & Grin

Dan

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:06 PM

CNW 6000
There's a curling club in Appleton, WI (not far from me-~20 miles) and I went there once with a friend and tried the game.  It's harder than it looks!

Kingston, Ontario is hosting outdoor curling and hockey - this weekend, I think.  Alas, I won't be going over the river to check it out as I'll be headed down to Utica for a train show.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by zardoz on Thursday, January 13, 2011 3:39 PM

CNW 6000

Carl,

You're welcome!  I also gave Zardoz a call (did you catch 'em?). 

 

Alas, no.  Way too cold out to drive 15 miles to see a train in the dark. However, I really appreciated the call. 

My wife & I are planning a visit to Appleton this Saturday (1/15) from about noon to 4pm.  I usually hang around Dale while the wife does the Mall.  If we are going to stop near Oshkosh, I'll give you a call.

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Posted by CNW 6000 on Thursday, January 13, 2011 6:03 AM

Thanks for the compliments on the pictures guys.  I was just glad to catch this guy.  Maybe we'll catch some empties coming north on Saturday or Sunday.  My guess, based on timing of the last one, is that it'll be in your neck of the woods (Carl) pretty early AM and then around Jim's mid-morning and my area late AM or early afternoon.

Bruce,
There's a curling club in Appleton, WI (not far from me-~20 miles) and I went there once with a friend and tried the game.  It's harder than it looks!

On a side note...if anyone sees the IC 2464 could you send it up this way?  It's the last 24xx series IC locomotive I haven't captured a digital soul of.

Dan

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Posted by AgentKid on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 7:05 PM

Interesting photo's Dan. I bet when CN quit hauling lead ore from Hay River, NWT to the smelter at Trail, BC, they never thought they would again have to buy new ore jennies. If they ever need to put more stencils on those cars they are going to have to buy bigger cars!

I just finished a couple of afternoons of watching that Roanoke Web Cam and found it relaxing and interesting. Now tomorrow I will be busy for the next 4 days watching 28 hours of TV coverage of a major Curling event here in Canada. My own Curling career may have come to an end due to a recurring shoulder pain. I have had to take this winter off, and then we will see from there.

On one of the last Friday's before Christmas I went down and watched my former teammates play in a league event, and at various times I kept wanting to run down from the second floor viewing area and tell the Skip what he should be doing, or throw the stone myself! I find being a fan very stressful. The only consolation was I won just under $100 in a 50/50 draw held among the other spectators in the viewing area. If a person could count on that sort of thing, it might make being a fan more tolerable!

Hope everyone is managing to dig themselves out of whatever snow storm is hitting them lately. It seems like there are a lot of different ones across North America this week.

Bruce

 

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"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

. . . __ . ______

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:47 AM

Thanks, Dan for posting these--and also for standing out in that weather to catch this guy. I can make out the builder on the cars, and the rest can be looked up easily enough.  I still have to see them myself, just for the tally.

Didn't go anywhere this morning...still worn out from our long, hard drive of yesterday.  (I know Randy wouldn't think it was an ordeal, but that young whippersnapper's gotten used to it!)  And we have another trip to make this weekend (nephew's wedding), so we won't be in position to see this batch of empties return on Sunday. 

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

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