On the subject of Nora: she's alive, doing all right, still working (for now) with the NS at Conway Yard (Pittsburgh area). Being a clerk isn't keeping her interested in the job, so she's now attending college and following another of her many hobbies.
On the subject of maximum track gauge: the FRA has standards for different classes of track. I don't know what the maximum allowable distance between rails is for Class I track (and that stuff looks bad, even to the untrained observer). On decent track, the gauge can widen to 4'10" on curves without too much of a problem. I hope somebody gives us the precise numbers--perhaps it's expressed in terms of a tolerance between the narrowest and widest acceptable gauge.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Yes, but the real question is: Are you supposed to be??!!
OH my!!! The 'silliness' caught up with me!! I think I ought to try sleeping a few more hrs a night, instead of trying to stay up to get things done!
Nance-CCABW/LEI
“Even if you are on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there.” --Will Rogers
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right! --unknown
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Hi,
Does anyone know what the tolerance is of a std-gauge track? Or, is it like 'what might derail my train,' and we don't know of this exact answer? (My bet is: we do know, but, then again...)
PS Would a curve make a difference in this?
Nance - I was going to direct you to a really old thread entitled (by the original poster - no reflection on your questions) "Nora's Stupid Question Thread."
Unfortunately, it's buried in the forum archives and a search came back with "you don't have permission."
The thread was full of questions like yours, as well as answers, like we're seeing here.
We haven't heard from Nora lately, but she did go on to work for a railroad, and may still be.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Aahh, thanks guys. Larry, the 2 pics I had seen were at a very different angle. Now I see what you mean! Well, no matter what, I know this is going to be a long process. I guess it would be like someone coming here and trying to learn all our automobile cars, incl makes, models, years, etc-- quite a task, indeed!!
Carl, that's a great idea. I really didn't even know they made such books. I'll keep my eyes peeled for possibilities!! I know of one possible local source. too.
Well, the good news in all of this is, I'm nearing the end of the 'ABC's articles, so I can soon continue my journey with the Glossary, and beyond, of course! Take care.
EMD GP30
GE B30-7
Not hard to tell apart...
The answer to your question about B-B vs C-C is yes - Special Duty (and their counterparts from other manufacturers) locomotives are better suited to lower speeds. The issue is the DC traction motors, which don't do really low speeds well. That problem has been taken care of with the introduction of AC traction motors, which can move trains at speeds under 1 MPH at full throttle.
Oh, Nance!
You're going to have to get some of the Diesel Spotters' Guides that are out there. Kalmbach published the first one in 1966 or so, and it was revised and updated several times. I'd suggest trying to acquire an older one at a railroadiana show or somewhere, so you could do things like distinguish an Alco S2 from an S4 and an S6, and get one of the latest ones, perhaps from a hobby shop, so you can tell the ACs from the DCs, and--especially--an EMD from a GE.
It's sort of like cars--up until the 1950s and early 60s, it was easy to distinguish one car make from another, and, quite often, models among the makes. With locomotives, makes (builders) have always been fairly easy, but models have gotten more difficult. They don't change every year, like cars supposedly do, but change whenever there's an improvement to be made--production method, higher horsepower, and so forth. Believe me, I can't tell the difference between some of the models (Dan just gave me a good clue, which I'll have to look for) in recent production, but--just as I could tell you who built that car in the 50s, and probably which year--I could do all right on those first- and second-generation diesels. This is one branch of the hobby that a lot of people really follow...I just try to get by, with a little help...
Link to a photo (not mine) of the Ingalls Shipbuilding Model 4S # 1900 (1946) - there are a couple more at this site, but they're 'broadside' B&W, whereas this one is a 'wedge' in color:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_gmo1900.jpg
Link to a photo (again, not mine) of a Niagara Junction (Niagara Falls, NY) steeplecab electric:
http://www.davesrailpix.com/odds/ny/htm/njct10.htm
- Paul North.
tree68 [snip] Nowadays it almost comes down to reading the model number stencilled on the side of the cab, especially when it comes to AC/DC.
Nowadays it almost comes down to reading the model number stencilled on the side of the cab, especially when it comes to AC/DC.
Dan
OK, I'm confused already! Doesn't an EMD GP30 look pretty similar to a GE B30-7? They do to me! What am I missing here, something major, must be??!! Oh, I think I'm gonna be stuck carrying around an encyclopedia full of all the diesel loco models!! OH NO!!!! Then again, once I learn the ones I'm around, I might be just fine!! Here's hoping!!
(Edit) I'm trying to figure out this paragraph. (It's from ABC's of Railroading: About B-B and C-C:) Modern locomotives will automatically reduce power to their motors if speed drops too low (as on a grade); this prevents damage, but also reduces the unit's power when it's most needed. A 3000 h.p. B-B may have a minimum continuous speed of 13 mph, but the two additional motors under a 3000 h.p. C-C allow it to work under maximum power at 9 mph. That 4 mph difference is crucial, because tractive effort - the force applied to turn the locomotive's wheels and ultimately move the train - climbs steeply in the lower speed ranges.
Is this saying that C-C's are better bc they provide more tractive effort at lower speeds than B-B's?
Huh, I think sometimes I get reading it too many times, in an effort to understand, but it just gets more confusing?! Know what I mean?
Thanks Larry! And Johnny, are ya telling me that a frog won't derail me but a rabbit might/will?!
PS Are those the live, squishy frogs or the metal ones?
PSS Larry, not only are those EMD GP30'S unique, they got a face only a mother could love...GEEZSH!!!
As to turret cabs, I know of two more--the original City of Portland, which looked like a much longer M-10000, and the engine Ingalls Shipbuilding built for the GM&O.
Nance, I am sure you know that it is safe to run over frogs--but you should never run over a rabbit that is sitting on a rail.
Johnny
Hmmmm.
Boxcab - Just a big box.
Steeplecab - A center-cab, most often electric. So called because the cab sticks up.
Carbody - F and E units. The A units are oftimes referred to as cab units. (B units have no controls - they are MU'd from a locomotive with controls). We do operate several F units.
Turret cab - Google UP's M10000.
Hood units are your standard road switchers. (GP's, SD's, C44's, etc)
Cowl units are hoods with a covering the goes out to where the handrails are on a hood unit. Amtrak's SDP40F's were cowls.
A safety, comfort, or wide-cab is a full width cab on an otherwise standard hood unit. The standard cab on a hood unit is sometimes referred to as a "spartan" cab.
Telling the difference ranges from easy to impossible. There are enough "standard" differences between EMD and GE these days that one can at least pick out which company manufactured the locomotive.
Telling the difference between models usually comes down to "spotting features" like the number of radiator fans. Some are easier than others. The EMD GP30 resembles no other locomotive, f'rinstance.
Back in the day, there were usually enough differences that even a novice fan could pick out the differences. Nowadays it almost comes down to reading the model number stencilled on the side of the cab, especially when it comes to AC/DC.
Great guys, as usual! I've been studying locos today. Very interesting and important but daunting at the same time!
1. Can anybody lead me to photo examples of the different cab types listed? They tell of: box-cab; steeple-cab; carbody; turret-cab (Larry, are these what yours are?); hood (style); cowl (style); and safety or comfort cab?
2. Above leads me to, how on earth do you ever get so you know, 'Oh, that's a ...; that ones a ...? I guess here I'm thinking of companies, models, etc. Is that just years of practice, maybe? But how do you originally learn all of them?! It seems endless!! There are so many models, years, companies, styles, etc.
Proviso has (or had, for a time) machines that would squirt "friction modifiers" at the flanges, as the cars got beyond the last retarder. I didn't work the lower towers from the time these were installed, but some operators said they could tell right away when more of the "juice" was needed because of the way the cars rolled (or didn't roll).
Paul, I've heard of geotextiles being used underneath the ballast to reduce or eliminate fouling from below. But I haven't heard about this recently. I know that once when the diamond and crossover switches were replaced in front of my tower, geotextiles were used, but it didn't seem to help (I suspect that this was more due to the fouling being done from above by anything from tallow to bentinite). I don't know if they used them the last time the diamond was replaced. Also, I believe the BNSF has used a layer of asphalt as a base for new track. How has that worked?
I know that the ballast undercutter-cleaners we've had have done a good job, but you often had to clear away the dirt because it had so much undesirable stuff in it.
1. Track grease/ rail lubricators: Yep. Lately the applicator has been mounted on the locomotive wheels instead of being at a fixed location on the track. There's some evidence that it also reduces rail and wheel wear and friction on tangent track as well. You don't want to go anywhere near one of them while wearing your best dress white pants, I assure you. They are often easily identified by the broad dark streaks or swaths of grease on the rails and ties that start with the 'distribution bars or ports' and go in the prevailing direction of traffic.* They are usually placed at the beginning of curves on heavily-traveled mainlines, where the most benefits can be obtained by saving on rail replacement needs. Nobody stands in line to service or refill them, either (except maybe "Pigpen" from the "Peanuts" comic strip !).
*EDIT: Go to these Lat./ Long. coords. (per the "ACME Mapper 2.0" application), which is about 0.2 mile south of MG tower on the western side of the NS Pittsburgh Line just a mile or two above/ south of Horse Shoe Curve: N 40.47956 W 78.47731 Next, go there using Bing Maps - it has much finer resolution and clarity there - and zoom all the way in and rotate the view so that you are looking southwardly - try: http://www.bing.com/maps/#JmNwPTQwLjQ3NjkzODgyNzE1MjM2fi03OC40NjgzODQxNDY2OTAxMiZsdmw9MTQmZGlyPTAmc3R5PXI=
Look for the signal bridge, and then try to guess which track(s) have the rail greaser. Hint: Look for the little box off to the western side of the track, maybe 50 to 100 ft. south of the signal bridge - that's the grease reservoir.
2. Ballast cleaning: I'm a bit of a contrarian on that. It works great if the source of the dirt/ contamination is leaks from cars or wind-blown lading or dirt from the surrounding area. Also, in the space between multiple tracks where drainage needs to be good and the loads are not a big concern or factor, as is explained a little further on. But if the ballast has gotten dirty from below - such as weak soils or a muddy spot - the ballast cleaning is only a short-term "temporary fix", until the next round of fouling and pumping, etc. can occur. The problem is that a clean ballast stone has a lot of voids in it, which invites dirt to migrate upwards. Also, the clean ballast stones have a lot of sharp points, which tend to punch and poke down into the weaker subgrades, which right there causes the track to settle and start moving or "pumping" a bit and start the cycle of dirt and water motion wicking upwards. Also, there can be a well-compacted and harder layer of mixed old ballast and dirt, etc. somewhere down below the ties which seals the track from the soft ground underneath, and often the BUC = Ballast Undercutter-Cleaner operation breaks that up and disturbs it and ruins it, which destabilizes the track for a while until that layer can be re-established under traffic. In those situations, I prefer to either remove the track entirely and install a sub-ballast layer to seal and strengthen the subgrade - if the necessary 'track time' can be obtained, or undercut the track with a 'sled' and 'skeletonize' the track - or maybe even using a BUC - but install a high-grade geotextile or 'filter fabric' to help separate the dirt from the clean ballast stone, provide better drainage, etc. But that's just me and my experience . . .
Nance - you kind of answered your own question (#2). Labor is the answer. Dumping ballast, then jacking the track structure so it's on top of the ballast (more or less) isn't as technically difficult as removing and replacing the ballast with the track in place.
Mechanical track cleaning machines have taken care of that. They are able to remove the ballast, clean it, and replace it in one operation.
Ballast being fouled by "fines" has been a real problem for the Powder River routes, coal dust being the culprit.
As for #1, greasers are usually intended only for the flanges, to decrease the wear thereof on sharper curves.
A ballast cleaning machine in action:
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
Thanks, everybody, as always, for the great help! It's wonderful to have access to all this information.
A few more questions (for now):
1. I just saw something this am re: track grease. Really?! It mentioned it in relation to curves, so it was timely but I've never heard of it.
2. Ballast (from ABC's of Railroading: Ballast):After the passage of about 250 million gross tons (2500 or so good-sized trains), it's time for new rock, which is often simply dumped on top of the old, making the latter part of the sub-ballast, which need not be of as high quality as the top ballast. As the track must be raised each time this is done, this can lead to problems with vertical clearance, road crossings, and (where there is passenger service) station-platform height.
So, my question is: why is it not dug out but just dumped on top of the old? Would it be too much work to dig it all out, I imagine? It seems, as it states, it would cause build-up. I'm confused as to why it's done this way if it causes problems.
3. This is a comment more than a question: (source same as above)While the rock may have plenty of "structural" life left, it may simply be clogged with drainage- impairing debris-nothing a good cleaning won't fix. As with most maintenance-of-way operations, ballast cleaning was at first a manual task; for several decades there have been a variety of rail-borne machines to clean ballast.
I'm SO glad I learned about this bc if they had told me we were going to 'wash' or 'clean' the ballast, I'd have laughed myself silly bc I would have thought they were trying to pull one over on a rookie!! Which, BTW, sounds a bit more likely than what's true!! I mean, honestly, who would think, without knowing the meaning, that you would have to wash rock that is outdoors, sits on top of dirt, at least eventually, and is just gonna get dirty again?! It makes perfect sense after they explain it, but...geezsh!!!
Ya'll have a good day, be careful in this winter weather. I'm feeling a bit better than yesterday.
zugmannI pride myself on easy couplings.
As a relative rookie, I know things aren't always going to go my way. But I got a real confidence booster once when I watched an old-head CSX conductor take five tries to get a good hitch. I don't fault him - I'm sure the couplers in question weren't exactly cooperating and he was about 20 TTX flats from the locomotive.
But it felt kinda good knowing that even those with lots of experience have trouble sometime, too.
Paul_D_North_Jr 4. A real conductor/ brakeman/ trainman type is better qualified to answer that. I'm sure the answer isn't "Hit it again, but harder - HARDER !", though we'll see . . . . - Paul North.
4. A real conductor/ brakeman/ trainman type is better qualified to answer that. I'm sure the answer isn't "Hit it again, but harder - HARDER !", though we'll see . . . .
Oooh.. I'm a real conductor/brakeman/trainman type. Or at least someone tells me I am. Silly them.
I pride myself on easy couplings. But I also have to ride a lot of shove moves. And the last thing you want to have is a hogger that is ticked off after you threw him to the floor and spilled his coffee a few times. Usually you can get the cars to come together nice and easy and have the pins drop. But sometimes you get a pin that doesn't want to drop. The solution? You can try to close the knuckle manually and drop the pin, or you can SLAM 'EM! So yeah, sometimes you do have to hit them harder. It's just metal, and the car shops need work, too..
Hey, Zug, don't feel too bad-- it took me four tries. Then again, I am under the weather today. Ya'll take care and stay warm!
I could put a few dental degrees above the zero line now, but I'd have to find a way to make the teeth chatter!
(Sun's bright out there, though!)
Located a series of 17 "missing" auto racks for a fellow researcher today. See, I don't have to go outdoors to accomplish good stuff! However, I might try and remove some ice after the sun's done a little more work.
We are now at 0. Yes, it feels warmer...sorta.
We "warmed" up to -4 from -13 this morning. It's hard to hold the camera steady when you can't feel your fingers on the shutter!
You guys really have to limit the word puzzles until after 4pm. Took me 3 times to read and understand Carl's post... OK, so I'm not too quick after work (some would argue that extends to at work as well).
+1
Could also do it something like this way:
0
B.S. B.A. M.A. Ph.D
Hope it doesn't get any colder out there . . .
CShaveRR Zero B.S. B.A. M.A. Ph.D
Zero
*groan*
Paul:
Diningcar and I worked for a railroad that believed in 9 foot ties (and 8 foot, none of that 8'6" stuff!)....Kinda busy now, but will come back and comment later.
Suspect what was seen in terms of tie spacing may be less railroad and more of a CalTrans funding issue.I'd have to know more about "where" on the caoast line. (CalTrans has a handfull of good railroaders and a gaggle of the clueless variety from the rubber-tired side)
Mud
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