edblysard Fantastic... Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why. If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated. Besides, I cant "eat my heart out"...its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body. Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!. So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it's a railroad, and you do stuff we don't, like handle passengers. You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm. I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies. What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective. Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the "I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that...." So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame. Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now....? Don't sweat the "jerkf" comment, I have pretty thick skin, grew up around Navy non-coms and seamen. And now that I know who and what you are, if anyone makes a comment about your conductor title in your signature, then they will have to argue with me and a few others first. Plus, if anyone has a question about your railroad and its history, I now know who to send to too. See, not so hard after all....
Fantastic...
Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why.
If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated.
Besides, I cant "eat my heart out"...its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body.
Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!.
So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it's a railroad, and you do stuff we don't, like handle passengers.
You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm.
I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies.
What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective.
Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the "I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that...."
So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame.
Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now....?
Don't sweat the "jerkf" comment, I have pretty thick skin, grew up around Navy non-coms and seamen.
And now that I know who and what you are, if anyone makes a comment about your conductor title in your signature, then they will have to argue with me and a few others first.
Plus, if anyone has a question about your railroad and its history, I now know who to send to too.
See, not so hard after all....
Water under the bridge good sir.
And btw, it was my mothers second cousin once removed by blood's sisters boyfriends daughters mother.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
From all the railfan rumor boards I read, I only ever saw BNSF as "banning" these clunkers from the lead. Of course from the notes posted here, BNSF doesn't have too many of them, so it wouldn't cause such an operational headache (as opposed to other railroads that roster quite a few, and they make up a good portion of engines that are cab signal / LSL equipped).
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
This kinda petty "I'm smarter than you...." crap is the reason I don't come around here much anymore.
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
It does seem like there is something to this rattling cab reputation. I see the topic has been discussed on this forum before. It would be interesting if someone could post some engineering illustrations of how an isolated cab is made and mounted. If I understand it correctly, the isolated cab is supposed to be quieter and easier riding. You would think that EMD knows everything about cab design and construction. So I wonder if the quest for a more comfortable cab has led to over engineering the cab in a way that has made it difficult to manufacture.
I also wonder if putting a cab on cushions or springs might allow that cab to resonate easier to the harmonics of the prime mover. If so, you would end up with more engine vibration in the cab instead of less. At the same time, though, the springs or cushions would dampen out shocks and vibrations coming through the locomotive from the track. If there is a problem, I am sure EMD will fix it, and it will eventually be clearly explained for the historical record as to what went wrong.
That's just way to cool!
At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart!
Doublestack This kinda petty "I'm smarter than you...." crap is the reason I don't come around here much anymore.
23 17 46 11
Just thinking out loud:
When you isolate a cab from the harsh movement of the frame and equipment, you create high dynamic loading in the fasteners that connect the cab to the frame. They have to flex as the frame vibrates in relation to the more stationary cab. The cab remains more stationary because it is isolated from the slamming and banging of the frame, and from the working vibrations of the diesel engine prime mover. I assume these cabs are isolated by mounting them on springs or spring-like material.
Altogether, it seems like quite a challenge to isolate the locomotive cab. Maybe they should not try to isolate the whole cab, but rather, isolate the crew seats alone.
.....As one looking in from outside....I really don't see why it would take super engineering to design Locomotive cabs / via proper mounts, to be somewhat isolated from the riggers of the vibrating prime mover and all the running parts on a road of steel rails via steel wheels...
Most bodys of highway vehicles {production}, have properly designed mounts to do much the same thing. Motor mounts {automotive}, as well.
Quentin
edblysard That's just way to cool! At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart!
WOW Ed,
Not trying to start hard times or anything, but when did you get so acerbic? You usually impressed me as a guy who kept his composure. But now it almost looks like you're egging it on?
Bucyrus Just thinking out loud: When you isolate a cab from the harsh movement of the frame and equipment, you create high dynamic loading in the fasteners that connect the cab to the frame. They have to flex as the frame vibrates in relation to the more stationary cab. The cab remains more stationary because it is isolated from the slamming and banging of the frame, and from the working vibrations of the diesel engine prime mover. I assume these cabs are isolated by mounting them on springs or spring-like material. Altogether, it seems like quite a challenge to isolate the locomotive cab. Maybe they should not try to isolate the whole cab, but rather, isolate the crew seats alone.
The cabs are mounted on big rubber donuts. It's done partially for vibration, but primarily for noise. Most of the motion of the frame is low frequency stuff and that is nearly all transmitted through the rubber donuts to the cab. Noise is higher frequency, and that all get eaten up by the rubber. The improvement is dramatic. An SD60 with a standard cab in good repair will have a noise level in the 87-88 dB range (with the window and doors shut, N8, no horn or bell). With the rubber flooring and a few other tweaks, the sound dropped below 85dB. The SD60I was in the 78-79 dB range - if I remember right.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Just a self depreciating joke that apparently was not very funny!
Convicted One edblysard: That's just way to cool! At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart! WOW Ed, Not trying to start hard times or anything, but when did you get so acerbic? You usually impressed me as a guy who kept his composure. But now it almost looks like you're egging it on?
edblysard: That's just way to cool! At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I'm smart!
Bucyrus It does seem like there is something to this rattling cab reputation. I see the topic has been discussed on this forum before. It would be interesting if someone could post some engineering illustrations of how an isolated cab is made and mounted. If I understand it correctly, the isolated cab is supposed to be quieter and easier riding. You would think that EMD knows everything about cab design and construction. So I wonder if the quest for a more comfortable cab has led to over engineering the cab in a way that has made it difficult to manufacture. I also wonder if putting a cab on cushions or springs might allow that cab to resonate easier to the harmonics of the prime mover. If so, you would end up with more engine vibration in the cab instead of less. At the same time, though, the springs or cushions would dampen out shocks and vibrations coming through the locomotive from the track. If there is a problem, I am sure EMD will fix it, and it will eventually be clearly explained for the historical record as to what went wrong.
To me it kind of begs the question," If thses units are so problematic, Why not turn them into a "B" unit configuration? One model that springs to mind is the CSX BQ23-7 which towards the end were relegated to unoccupiable cab "B" Unit Status
Photo of CSX 3006B linked here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1140455
They are ok to lead on NS, CSX, UP, etc. The only railroad with the ban on the pre-iso cab ACes leading is BNSF. The rest of the class one railroads are unaffected.
edblysard Just a self depreciating joke that apparently was not very funny!
Well, you have always impressed me as a voice of reason, even talking me back to sanity a time or two when others found their way under my skin, so this thread is somewhat of a surprise.
Just my two cents but your original reply to Coburn appeared like you were trying to.....well, ... scold him for not being... cut from the right cloth. Not that any of it is really my business, it's just a shock coming from you...hope you're alright, etc.
Boy this is were the OTR industry is Way ahead of the RR Industry. In all OTR truck unless it is a Daycab or Spotter the Trucking equivalant of a Switch Engine we use Air Ride Cabs. They are fixed to the Front of Cab with Rubber Mounts then in the Rear supported with a Pair Air Bags and damped by Simple Shocks. So We are Isolated from Road Noise and from some of the Roughest Roads in the Nation. Then we get Air Ride Seats on top of that. Noise in a Truck is normally right around 65-70 DB Before we went to Air Ride cabs we were in the area of 90 DB's
ED.
You are right on with your assessment.['I'd say I Hear Ya!', but MACK TRUCK EXHAUSTS HAVE CAUSED ME TO LOSE MY HEARING.] But remember. Early air ride seats for th drivers did not happen until the 1960;s. And they were not much more removed from being an apple box on a shock absorber. Truckers still had medical issues with kidney problems, and back pains, well you know, we've both been there. Sleeper cabs have come a long way from that box that you had to crawl through the back window glass opening to get into, and the ones that were rightly referred to as "Coffin Sleepers." An Air Conditioned Cabs are not really that 'new' either (remember the days when ABF and ETMF drivers had air conditioned cabs per their contracts?) THE a/c UNITS WERE IN A CARDBOARD BOX STUCK ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CAB, BUT 'THEY' -DRIVERS- HAD AIR CONDITIONERS IN THEIR CABS.
I'm guessing that the evolution of operator comforts in locomotives will be longer and more painfully slow. Seems like the Railroad Industry is marked by a history of fighting each inch and the path is figuratively strewn with bodies and careers.
I've not had to work in them so i cannot comment, but I have been in some of UP's Heritage Units and admittedly they were still new and sitting at an idle. There is a lot of room in those cabs, but the operator stations are far less than they could be, if they were more ergonomically designed for comfort of the crew.
The amenities are certainly lacking ( only a water cooler, and very small refrigerator compartment. The seats do not seem to be designed for comfort( having to spend a maximum shift in them (give or take 16 hrs). It was amazing to me to read somewhere where a CPR crew could down an engine if their microwave was not working (?). [Might help to explain why one sees on occasion a CPR unit leading BNSF or UP trains.] As it was pointed out by Bucyrus in the thread on the EMD Locomotives, the isolated cabs were a nod to the excessive levels of engine noise in the cabs and the Isolation was a compromise on only the acoustics, not the physical nature of the locomotive's ride. Just a fast guess is that to isolate a locomotive to make the ride more comfortable for the crew would at best be a plumbing nightmare. Truck Cabs are a little bit less involved with the engineering utilizing a from hinge and airbag suspension ( as well as, in some cases an air bagged front axle.)
My guess is that creature comforts for railroad crews are probably a long way off. The crews will have to beat back the Bean Counters, Lawyers, and Front Office pogues; not to mention getting sympathy from the upper reaces of the Unions. Seems like the decision makers use discomfort in a job like Frat Brothers in College use Initiations as a rite of passage.
I hear you there. My first truck I drove for a Living even though I am a Youngster at 35 was for a guy that loved Antiques I swear. I had the Pleasure of for 3 years driving a Transtart 1 with the Hendrickson Rubber Blocked Suspension. When I quit there to go OTR and got an Air ride suspension even though my cab was still Bolted to the Frame I thought I was in HEAVEN. Then I got that Uniblit Pete and really thought I was there. Then I got the Century class Freightliner and was in Nirvana. The Exhast issues in OTR could be fixed and was just fixed real easy the FMCSA has determined that all trucks must have a WORKING Muffler on them the Turbo will no be considered as one Any longer. So the Era of Straight Pipes is DONE.
Can anyone explain why a cab that was designed to be extra quiet ends up being extra noisy? Has isolating the cab on rubber mounts to stop the transmission of high frequency sound vibrations made the cab more likely to resonate to low frequency vibrations?
Bucyrus Can anyone explain why a cab that was designed to be extra quiet ends up being extra noisy? Has isolating the cab on rubber mounts to stop the transmission of high frequency sound vibrations made the cab more likely to resonate to low frequency vibrations?
Well,
Looking back I could have worded it better, I was asking for a reliable source because I had read a similar post on another forum about SD60s that was, well, simply a made up rumor and I wanted to get a copy if it was a GN or GO from BNSF, lots of BN crews come in here and I was interested, could have grabbed it from them.
The question about how many was a straight forward one, just being nosey.
In a hurry and didn't really think it was offensive or provocative and it grew from there.
Should take my own advice and proof read for context and content, yeah?
Haven't been all right since they fired Bum Phillips!
Convicted One edblysard: Just a self depreciating joke that apparently was not very funny! Well, you have always impressed me as a voice of reason, even talking me back to sanity a time or two when others found their way under my skin, so this thread is somewhat of a surprise. Just my two cents but your original reply to Coburn appeared like you were trying to.....well, ... scold him for not being... cut from the right cloth. Not that any of it is really my business, it's just a shock coming from you...hope you're alright, etc.
edblysard: Just a self depreciating joke that apparently was not very funny!
Last trip out I had a GE that under power had everything in the cab rattling, squeeking, or vibrating. Once you got up to speed or otherwise had to notch down, everything would get nice and quiet.
Sam, that heritage unit, were the seats brown or black? The brown ones, first started getting those on the SD70m units, are the nicer ones IMO. Trouble is now that the SD70m units are starting to age, if the seat needs replacing they use one of those black ones. (Of course those black ones (to me) are better than those little ones I see from time to time on CSX units.)
A year or two back some of them new Ferromex engines were roaming around. I had a chance to look over a couple. They really had the good seats and actual refrigerators. The new power we get now just have those metal ice boxes. (I hate those. Just like many things, those that don't use something have the biggest say in how it's made. The ice tray, not really a tray as it's nonremovable, is at the top. The opening isn't real big, making it unhandy to empty bags of ice into it. Also hard to pull out bottles or cans buried in the ice, at least when you've got big mits like me. The drain becomes plugged letting the melt water run all over the floor in front of it. The things were originally used on the SD70m units and were under the conductors desk area. They started using them to replace defective refrigerators, that many times were behind the conductor. Trouble is behind the condr, the door when open makes it hard to get into the the thing. We used to have ice buckets with styrofoam inserts. They worked better but have been deemed a "tripping hazard" so they're gone now.) It's been a while but they also may have had microwaves on them.
Ed, I think your Christmas hams are on the way. My train the other day had a car of meat (and some other cars, too) going to the PTRA.
Jeff
I never liked those UP brown seats. Maybe I only ever got worn out ones. The best seats I ever got were on a CSX gevo. The old Conrail brown seats weren't bad either - but they are rare anymore.
We have Rubbermaid coolers for ice and water. I like them because they can't really break like a refrigerator can. And you can easily clean them out when needed, letting them dry out in the sun.
This can't be solely an isolated cab issue.... None of the original isolated cab units, the ex-Conrail SD60Is or SD80MACs are on the list.
Oh man, the 60Is. I loved those! Go through a 40mph crossover and you ended up on the other side of the cab. Yee-haw! Great fun!
None of the iso-cab SD70ACes are on the list, either.
zugmann Oh man, the 60Is. I loved those! Go through a 40mph crossover and you ended up on the other side of the cab. Yee-haw! Great fun!
You should have tried an E60 sometime. They'd do that to you on a straight route through an interlocking!
(zugmann, you are spoiled!)
I'll take an E60 if you have a spare.
I know I'm spoiled. Then again, all the cool stuff was sold off before I hired out. I don't mind my 4 axle geeps, but they're just too comfortable and reliable.
oltmannd OK. You can trade in your SD70M-2 for a vintage B23-7, with the toilet compartment vent right in front of the horn. Chem toilet with no forced ventilation. Rusted out cab walls. Small windows. Tiny, narrow cab doors that need to be slammed shut (and still leak air and noise. 85dB in run 8 interior noise (if you keep the windows shut). Two forced air heaters w/o ducting - that have "hi" and "low" setting (and maybe sidewall strip heaters, if you are lucky". An a control stand so junked up with rattling, bent up, "add on" boxes that make you have to stand up to see the conductor ('cause you'll never hear his snoring....) And a carbody guaranteed to get you completely filthy if you try the engineer's side rear walkway past the radiator cab. Did I miss anything?
OK.
You can trade in your SD70M-2 for a vintage B23-7, with the toilet compartment vent right in front of the horn. Chem toilet with no forced ventilation. Rusted out cab walls. Small windows. Tiny, narrow cab doors that need to be slammed shut (and still leak air and noise. 85dB in run 8 interior noise (if you keep the windows shut). Two forced air heaters w/o ducting - that have "hi" and "low" setting (and maybe sidewall strip heaters, if you are lucky". An a control stand so junked up with rattling, bent up, "add on" boxes that make you have to stand up to see the conductor ('cause you'll never hear his snoring....) And a carbody guaranteed to get you completely filthy if you try the engineer's side rear walkway past the radiator cab.
Did I miss anything?
Running a fleet of B-23s in Maine........
And Ed .. I'm still railroading for a living, still wishing I had gotten into adult filmaking...
Randy Stahl And Ed .. I'm still railroading for a living, still wishing I had gotten into adult filmaking...
C'mon now - we have the greatest job in the world!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.