On 12-2-10 BNSF issued General Notice 938 which reads in part:The following "North American Cab" locomotives are not suitable for lead or(crew) deadhead service:BNSF 9330-9399NS 2649-2778CSXT 4831-4850UP 8309-8620KCS 3997-3999KCS 4030-4315KCS 8600-8629MRL 4300-4315FEC 100-103CN 8000-8024
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
And you got this information from what reliable source?
How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in?
23 17 46 11
Actually several railroads have banned the SD70's to lead due to bad welds in cabs.
Crews and railroads do not trust integrety of the cabs.
there is even one other model involved.
One other railroad is CSX.
edblysard And you got this information from what reliable source? How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in?
How many have you ridden in Ed?
Is this an absolute prohibition, such that if SD70ACe's are the only units available, the train doesn't 'start' / is cancelled or held until other power is available ? Or just a strong preference - "Use other units to lead whenever available ?"
Procedurally, how is this being implemented ? Timetable, General Rules, Bulletin, Memo from the Motive Power Bureau to the engine servicing facilities, etc. ?
- Paul North.
Is one of those railroads UP??? If they're one of the railroads that banned SD70s on the point, then why did they paint them in heritage Colors?
With the SD70ACe's being Train Control equipped engines CSX is using them as leaders on the I-95 corridor trains that must traverse the RF&P between DC & Richmond where Train Control leaders are required.
Dutchrailnut Actually several railroads have banned the SD70's to lead due to bad welds in cabs. Crews and railroads do not trust integrety of the cabs. there is even one other model involved. One other railroad is CSX.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Three, they came in on a ferterlizer train for Mosaic....they load up and kick pretty good, but stop like a garbage truck...I like the 70M better, it kicks great and stops great.
We took the train out to Mosaic and spotted the plant with them, my engineer did not like how they shoved against a minimum brake set, he said he could not tell when the slack was all bunched in, and they didnt seem to set their independent brakes up as a trio, but each one by itself instead.
We took them back to north yard and stayed on them to finish our switching...they ride ok, but overall just dont seem to be the quality I expect from EMD.
So, Coborn, how many?
And besides the modelers club, / Historical group, what railroad do you work for?
Is it a Class 1, Class 2 or a Class 3?
And lastly, where did you get your information?
Was it a safety bulletin, general order, terminal order, what?
Because I have never known any Class 1 to give a hoot in a holler about the cormfort or ride quality for road crews...as long as the toiliet flushes, the heater sorta works and the lights all come on they could care less how it rides.
coborn35 edblysard: And you got this information from what reliable source? How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in? How many have you ridden in Ed?
edblysard: And you got this information from what reliable source? How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in?
Be nice. Take it easy on the foamers.
There's a reasons they are known as "Thundercabs".
I've ridden on plenty of those rattletraps. Just the issues with the cab doors popping open on their own should be enough to ban them from being leaders.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
So what is causing this problem, and why is it occurring with just these cabs?
Maybe a faulty design or a bad batch of something. Does anyone know which units (by number or builder number) this affects? That may give clues.
Dan
Here in California, UP SD70ACe's lead all the time.
The over 1400 UP SD70M units are the super rattletraps!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
I don’t know anything about this issue, but from what I read, it sounds like the isolated cab was intended to cut down on noise. One source says:
“The analysis was used to identify standing wave resonances in the cab acoustic cavity and make modifications to the structure so that structural mode shapes do not correspond to the acoustical cavity mode shapes.”
Maybe they over thought the problem and came up with a cab design that was hard to build without rattles.
edblysard So, Coborn, how many? And besides the modelers club, / Historical group, what railroad do you work for? Is it a Class 1, Class 2 or a Class 3? And lastly, where did you get your information? Was it a safety bulletin, general order, terminal order, what? Because I have never known any Class 1 to give a hoot in a holler about the cormfort or ride quality for road crews...as long as the toiliet flushes, the heater sorta works and the lights all come on they could care less how it rides. coborn35: edblysard: And you got this information from what reliable source? How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in? How many have you ridden in Ed?
coborn35: edblysard: And you got this information from what reliable source? How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in? How many have you ridden in Ed?
Oh yea, am I in a modelers club? I wasn't aware. No. I am in a historical society? No. I dont know why you are being such a jerk about this. I never said it was set in stone, I merely said this is what I had heard about the PRE-isolated cab SD70ACe and M-2's.
Well here you go investigator Ed, this is where I got it from: http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19921&p=166450#p166450
zugmann There's a reasons they are known as "Thundercabs". I've ridden on plenty of those rattletraps. Just the issues with the cab doors popping open on their own should be enough to ban them from being leaders.
This sounds like the tail gate on a 1960 rattlin' Rambler American station wagon I had as a kid.
New tie rods and ball joints this is not. Being ignorant myself of the problem in question, does anybody have any idea what it would take to fix. Does anybody have any idea what costs would be involved.
Even as a conductor, my gripes with the SD70M-2s are as follows (some of these may be a RR-specific issue, so all may not apply to all roads):
1. Angle$1****$2under the frame right near the "poop chute".
2. Toilet system in the area between the interior front cab doors - making it a tight fit when you're trying to carry your grip in.
3. That toilet system always stinks.
4. Interior car door many times won't shut
5. Terlet room door is cheap plastic and warps easy. Also won't stay shut at times.
6. Cheap plastic interior that is prone to squeaking and rattling
7. Vertical windows have awful glare - and the big dash area makes it hard to clean the insides of them.
8. The air vents break easy, and are in annoying spots when they do break.
9. Too much vibration in the cabs. (high-pitched whiny vibration)
10. Delayed independent. Not as much of an issue for the conductor, but it can be a pain those rare times you need to spot something precisely.
11. I don't think the interior lights have a dimmer. That is real annoying.
12. Exterior doors have a habit of popping open at speed.
-----
Now there are some positives:
1. Big sliding windows are easy to clean.
2. Rear windows are a nice size.
3. When you get 5 or 6 of these beasts together, it is an impressive sight.
---------
K. P. Harrier The over 1400 UP SD70M units are the super rattletraps!
I've never had a problem with the SD70m engines. I know some guys I work with complain more about the rattling noise from cab components on the SD70ACe, and I guess they do a bit more than others. But I've had GE (desk top controls) that have had some good rattle to them too.
I've also had cab doors pop open, but on both EMD and GE engines. I've never kept a record of which is worse. A conductor asked me recently if I noticed some of the EMD engines assembled in Mexico are worse for the rattle issue than others. I hadn't, he had I guess. Most of the time it's just a minor annoyance, nothing to get too worked up over.
I would say, it seems if an EMD is going to have issues, they come with them while GE ones seem to age into theirs after a few years. I don't know if it's design, cheaper components, or cheaper manufacturing processes.
Jeff
edblysard Three, they came in on a ferterlizer train for Mosaic....they load up and kick pretty good, but stop like a garbage truck...I like the 70M better, it kicks great and stops great. We took the train out to Mosaic and spotted the plant with them, my engineer did not like how they shoved against a minimum brake set, he said he could not tell when the slack was all bunched in, and they didnt seem to set their independent brakes up as a trio, but each one by itself instead. We took them back to north yard and stayed on them to finish our switching...they ride ok, but overall just dont seem to be the quality I expect from EMD. So, Coborn, how many? And besides the modelers club, / Historical group, what railroad do you work for? Is it a Class 1, Class 2 or a Class 3? And lastly, where did you get your information? Was it a safety bulletin, general order, terminal order, what? Because I have never known any Class 1 to give a hoot in a holler about the cormfort or ride quality for road crews...as long as the toiliet flushes, the heater sorta works and the lights all come on they could care less how it rides. coborn35: edblysard: And you got this information from what reliable source? How many SD70ACEs have you ridden in? How many have you ridden in Ed?
Of course we also have cabs quiet enough that we can complain about things like squeaking panels.
That says a lot, too.
OK.
You can trade in your SD70M-2 for a vintage B23-7, with the toilet compartment vent right in front of the horn. Chem toilet with no forced ventilation. Rusted out cab walls. Small windows. Tiny, narrow cab doors that need to be slammed shut (and still leak air and noise. 85dB in run 8 interior noise (if you keep the windows shut). Two forced air heaters w/o ducting - that have "hi" and "low" setting (and maybe sidewall strip heaters, if you are lucky". An a control stand so junked up with rattling, bent up, "add on" boxes that make you have to stand up to see the conductor ('cause you'll never hear his snoring....) And a carbody guaranteed to get you completely filthy if you try the engineer's side rear walkway past the radiator cab.
Did I miss anything?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Uphogger, I'm trying but...
Ok,
We can start at the bottom and work our way up....
Lets see, another "railfan forum" is your credible source?
That's like claiming your are in prison because you were framed, and your proof being all the other prison inmates say they were framed too!
How about a technical bulletin, or a general order from BNSF, maybe a general notice, something actually issued by the railroad you mentioned, instead of a rumor running on another forum.
No, not investigator Ed, it was CSI Blysard...Child Support Investigator, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.
I left there to go railroading.
No, you didn't say it was set in stone, you said it was a black eye for EMD, but you are saying this with no creditable proof, and zero real life experience using the machine in question, yet you imply or present it as if it was a established fact.
The legal folks at EMD may take issue with the way you present this and the title of your post.
"Jerkoff"....hummm, I was expecting much better of you, but then , considering your age and such, well, we will just let your words speak for themselves and for you and you attitude.
http://www.missabe.com/cms/, your not the Max Medlin mentioned here?
Ok, if that's not you, fine, my bad...but you do call yourself a conductor, so with what railroad?
My reason for asking is simple.
Just because I used to be in the auto parts industry, (I owned two parts house franchises) and my friends and I own a lot of really fast cars, I don't go around calling myself a NASCAR driver or even a race car driver.
Neither do my friends.
In that context, although I have "heard" that the new Aston Martin DB9 handles badly, because I have never driven a DB9, I will never repeat that statement without that qualification, nor would I present it as an established fact, as you seem to do by implying the SD70ACEs are "rattle traps".
If you haven't ridden in one, how do you know?
(truth be told, I would love the chance to see if the DB9 runs as well as the Vantage V12 Aston produces, I have driven that, it's a rocket with wheels on it).
I have run locomotives, but would never ever call myself an engineer till I have my Federal license in my pocket.
All I ever comment on in that respect is what the engineers I work with tell me, and I make it clear in my posting that the information is second hand, but I also state the source, and establish their statements as an their opinion, not as a "fact"
My problem is that because you present yourself as a conductor/ railroad employee, some of the younger, easily impressed forum members might read some of your broad, ill informed and misleading postings and statement as truth and fact, then in turn either repeat that information as if it were "fact" (having heard it from a "real" railroader), or worse, act upon some of the more ill informed statements and information from your other postings and go out and do something dangerous, possibly injuring themselves or worse.
That would be a sad thing indeed.
Personally, I don't care if you call yourself the Jolly Green Giant, Peter Pan, Captain Hook or Tinkerbelle for that matter, but here, if you are going to present yourself as a conductor, it would go a long way towards establishing your position and creditably if you offered up your "bona fides" so to speak.
My bona fides are...
Current...
Switch Engine Foreman/Switchman
Port Terminal Railroad Association,
North Yard, 7900 Clinton Drive,
Houston Texas.
13+ years service.
Previous.
CSI, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.
Promoted to,
Special Projects Investigator, Child Support Enforcement Division,
Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.
Franchise owner operator,
Chief Auto Parts, a Division of Southland Corp,
Seagoville, Dallas Texas.
I liquidated both my stores when Southland sold its retail operations to a Japanese investment firm.
I noticed you have yet to answer the question on how many SD70ACEs, you have ridden, nor have you answered what railroad you work for.
Why?
If your not a railroad employee, but are a employee/member of a historical society, that's cool, I am a member of the NHRS, ride every trip I get the chance to.
Museums and historical societies need enthusiastic, eager people like you to preserve our railroads artifacts, equipment and the history behind all of this industry.
That history and Americas history are intertwined, railroads are a big part of the reason people moved west of the Mississippi.
Zug, I realized you were right on about the anglecock, I remember having to just about shove my face into the toilet drain to reach it, and the valve on one unit was mounted on the train line facing in towards the frame, not facing towards the outside, really hard and uncomfortable/awkward to use.
And all three locomotives had their inner doors open, one had it propped open with the broom, the lead unit would shut, but leaked air.
We used the rear unit on the way back in, it stunk like the toilet, the icebox was just that, a box you had to ice instead of a refrigeration unit, and the general up keep on all three was bad, almost as if they were on a bare bone maintenance schedule, just enough to keep them FRA compliant.
Looking back, I get the feeling they were not going to be put up for resale when they were retired, but would head either straight to scrap or be used as trade in.
Overall, not a "bad" locomotive, but not a "good" locomotive either, surely not the quality EMD usually puts out.
Bucyrus,
Its almost like a transient project, a stop gap between what they had designed and wanted to produce and what they could manage to produce at that time.
Coborn, any time you preface a post with "I heard" you reduce the content of the thread to the level of a high school bathroom rumor...along the lines of "I heard Suzie got pregnant" or "I heard Frank was cheating on his algebra test"... or "I heard BNSF wouldn't allow SD70ACEs to run as lead"...
If you want to make a post that is taken seriously, try doing the research, establish a credible source, (read that as not another railroad forum) then quote or link to that source(s).
Then present your finding as an opinion, to gather other forum members opinions and their sources, engage them in civil debate, read and comment on their findings..
That's how you establish a credible, informed and entertaining discussion.
The "I heard" is simply rumor mongering...
Of course, that's assuming you are not simply posting because you enjoy spreading hearsay and rumors.
Well I do take offense to the fact that you were trying to belittle me by saying "oh he only works for a historical society or model RR club, which is not true) I just took your post as making fun of me. I do not take kindly to that. And then you say I make statements which will get kids killed? What the hell?
Conductor/Brakeman/Mechanic
Duluth and North Shore Railway
We handle passenger and freight operations in northern MN.
Sure we aren't the Houston Port Terminal Railroad or the BNSF, but you know what? I am *** proud of the job we do operating our freight and passenger trains over the road safely and efficiently. I may not know as much as Ed does about flat switching, or as much as Zug knows about running a train, but I am always trying to learn more and become a better crew member.
6+ years.
Duluth, MN
SD70ACe's ridden in: 5.
Sorry I just reposted something that is blazing across the internet, thought some people might be interested.
Not trying to argue or start a fight here, but I felt like your post was very rude and arrogant Ed, which I know you are not. Your a great guy from what I see. I just did not expect to get jumped on like that for a little posting which people do all the time.
Hmm...
edblysard Because I have never known any Class 1 to give a hoot in a holler about the cormfort or ride quality for road crews...as long as the toiliet flushes, the heater sorta works and the lights all come on they could care less how it rides.
There you go. Eat your heart out:
Just for the record (since everyone else is doing it) - I never had a SD70Ace as a leader. I think I had a UP one as a trailer one time. I remember it was brand spanking new and the cab smelled like paint. The leader was a plain jane UP 70M I believe.
I'm starting my 5th year on the RR... still don't know much about anything. Everything I say is strictly my personal opinion.
Fantastic...
Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why.
If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated.
Besides, I cant "eat my heart out"...its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body.
Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!.
So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it's a railroad, and you do stuff we don't, like handle passengers.
You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm.
I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies.
What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective.
Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the "I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that...."
So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame.
Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now....?
Don't sweat the "jerkf" comment, I have pretty thick skin, grew up around Navy non-coms and seamen.
And now that I know who and what you are, if anyone makes a comment about your conductor title in your signature, then they will have to argue with me and a few others first.
Plus, if anyone has a question about your railroad and its history, I now know who to send to too.
See, not so hard after all....
coborn35 There you go. Eat your heart out: On 12-2-10 BNSF issued General Notice 938 which reads in part:The following "North American Cab" locomotives are not suitable for lead or(crew) deadhead service:BNSF 9330-9399NS 2649-2778CSXT 4831-4850UP 8309-8620KCS 3997-3999KCS 4030-4315KCS 8600-8629MRL 4300-4315FEC 100-103CN 8000-8024
Apparently NS thinks their SD70M-2s are OK to lead...http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=347743&nseq=2
I wonder what the issue is?
Don, I'm still laughing over that one. That photo is just a week old - Dec. 4, 2010 - and shows NS 2770 - which is within the list above - leading a certain train solo. I dunno - maybe that one's the exception that proves the rule ? Stay tuned, I suppose . . .
ed and coborn35 - kudos to both of you for a good job of regaining control of this thread, which for a while sure seemed headed downhill at runaway speed. If we're ever able to get together at the same time and place, I'll buy the coffee/ beer/ whatever . . .
For the record - since it's presently not noted there - it now seems that coborn35 has gone back to his Original Post and edited it to include the above-referenced BNSF General Order in place of the
ed, it would be interesting to learn what BNSF's rationale is for that restriction. I wonder if it will cause any hassles with consist make-up, esp. for run-through power ?
You'll probably get some bluff and bluster from the BNSF TM, to try to 'save face' for his crew and himself . . . you're in Texas, right ? But we all know the snappy retort is "Well, how would you feel if they'd hit someone or something ? Be glad we caught it now." If you ever read the articles by former MoPac TM W.M. "Mike" Adams in Trains in the 1980's or so - esp. the one on how tests held the railroad together - his philosophy was basically to: come down hard on little errors, to prevent them from growing into big errors; to show the crews that you're serious about safety, and let them wonder what would happen if they screwed-up 'big time'; that no one could ever say that the railroad looked the other way on safety; and that you're really interested in them getting the work done safely. Maybe you could give him a copy of that article ? And as a Railroad Gazette editor once observed in the late 1800's: "All negligence which causes disaster will be found to have been more or less habitual" (or similar).
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