THE HISTORY QUIZ CONTINUES . . . newcomers welcome!

[wanswheel]

Mount Gretna Narrow Gauge Railroad

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/odgretna.Html

Ambler, formerly Wissahickon, was renamed for Mary J. Ambler, heroic responder to a train crash that killed dozens of Irish kids enroute to a parish picnic on the North Pennsylvania Railroad.

http://stmichaelshistory.catholicweb.com/index.cfm/NewsItem?ID=124237&From=Home

Philip L. Fox met Lincoln. Could that be the chief surveyor whose middle name was Lansdale?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=lincoln;rgn=div1;view=text;idno=lincoln4;node=lincoln4%3A948

http://books.google.com/books?id=Gb203Gb8dGUC&pg=PA10&dq=P+%26+R+Station+Lansdale&lr=&as_brr=3

Mike

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

CShaveRR

I'm remembering an article from Trains about a logging railroad someplace in da U.P. that had some totally amazing grades, from being built into and out of valleys--a lot of momentum was needed to overcome some of these hills, so the trains had to get going pretty quickly on the downgrade. Could this be it?

I could never qualify for the bonus, though.

Carl got it.  See:

World's steepest adhesion railroad?
Trains, June 1969 page 42
15- to 20-percent grades
( GRADE, "JONES, CLINTON, JR.", LOGGING, MICHIGAN, TRN )

The company was Ellis & Porterfield - I think.  My reference is not with me now, and I also found a link to a pretty good article that I'll post later today when I can retrieve it.

Johnny is also right about the operations.  If the loco had to stop in a valley - like to make a pick-up from a spur there - they had to see-saw or "rock" back and forth between the grades on opposite sides of the valley to get up enough speed to get over the top of the hill.  Speeds were reported to be in the 60 MPH range, if I recall right. 

One more thing - they used rod locos - 4-4-0's, again if memory is right - even on those steep grades.  Despite being a logging railroad in Michigan - where & why the Shay geared loco was invented - you couldn't use one of them for this.  They couldn't go fast enough !  Clearly a case of using and working with what you had, instead of the "conventional wisdom" solution, which was typical for loggers.

Your turn, Carl.  Thanks for participating.

- Paul North.

[CShaveRR]

I have a quick geography question--some people will get this right away, but will have to wait about ten hours for me to return.

A lot of folks know that my favorite trains to watch for are the Railex perishable trains for Rotterdam, New York. Two trains come every week from Wallula, Washington, and one train from Delfar, California. (Rumor has it that a second Delfar train could be added in a month or so.)

So, what location (city and state) is the first point on the UP that these trains share on their routes eastward?

[Anonymous]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say Pocatello, Idaho.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Laramie, Wyoming (memory & guess - no research, believe me !)

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Paul_D_North_Jr

CShaveRR

I'm remembering an article from Trains about a logging railroad someplace in da U.P. that had some totally amazing grades, from being built into and out of valleys--a lot of momentum was needed to overcome some of these hills, so the trains had to get going pretty quickly on the downgrade. Could this be it?

I could never qualify for the bonus, though.

Carl got it.  See:

World's steepest adhesion railroad?
Trains, June 1969 page 42
15- to 20-percent grades
( GRADE, "JONES, CLINTON, JR.", LOGGING, MICHIGAN, TRN )

The company was Ellis & Porterfield - I think.  EDIT:  Porterfield & Ellis  My reference is not with me now, and I also found a link to a pretty good article that I'll post later today when I can retrieve it.

Johnny is also right about the operations.  If the loco had to stop in a valley - like to make a pick-up from a spur there - they had to see-saw or "rock" back and forth between the grades on opposite sides of the valley to get up enough speed to get over the top of the hill.  Speeds were reported to be in the 60 MPH range, if I recall right. 

One more thing - they used rod locos - 4-4-0's, again if memory is right - even on those steep grades.  Despite being a logging railroad in Michigan - where & why the Shay geared loco was invented - you couldn't use one of them for this.  They couldn't go fast enough !  Clearly a case of using and working with what you had, instead of the "conventional wisdom" solution, which was typical for loggers.

Your turn, Carl.  Thanks for participating.

- Paul North.

It was Porterfield & Ellis, not the other way around. 

Here's the link to a book titled "Deep Woods Frontier: A History of Logging in Northern Michigan" by Theodore J. Karamanski, Published by Wayne State University Press, 1989, ISBN 081432049X, 9780814320495, 305 pages.  Google took me to the text on pg. 181, and a map on pg. 180, which cites the Trains article above; but it omits pg. 179, so I guess you'll have to find or buy the book (around $25, it seems) if you want to know more:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5VU9emsggqsC&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=michigan+logging+%2Bgrade+rail+OR+TRAIN&source=web&ots=uAfErkg1a0&sig=P5mWfcwHGtoeEm6hZvqijjw7SK8&hl=en&ei=3XCVSb-eF6GbtwfusKSsCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA181,M1 

- Paul North.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

wanswheel

Mount Gretna Narrow Gauge Railroad

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/odgretna.Html

Ambler, formerly Wissahickon, was renamed for Mary J. Ambler, heroic responder to a train crash that killed dozens of Irish kids enroute to a parish picnic on the North Pennsylvania Railroad.

http://stmichaelshistory.catholicweb.com/index.cfm/NewsItem?ID=124237&From=Home

Philip L. Fox met Lincoln. Could that be the chief surveyor whose middle name was Lansdale?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=lincoln;rgn=div1;view=text;idno=lincoln4;node=lincoln4%3A948

http://books.google.com/books?id=Gb203Gb8dGUC&pg=PA10&dq=P+%26+R+Station+Lansdale&lr=&as_brr=3

Mike

Mike - Right on all counts ! 

I don't think I'd seen that article on the Mt. Gretna Narrow Gauge before - thanks !  For those of you who haven't looked at this, it was a 2 ft. gage line - they weren't all in Maine ! (or Massachusetts)  - couldn't put that in the original question, or it might have given away too much.  And, it was the only American  NG that operated American-type locos - the 4-4-0's - it had 3 of them !  A couple years ago I hiked up the Governor Dick (hill/ mountain) on the old rail bed - it's now a hiking trail - from the road that runs south out of Mt. Gretna, and some of the ties are still there and visible.

You've surely got Lansdale identified correctly - I don't know about the Lincoln connection, but it's more than plausible.  And if you read closely the Lincoln "Memorandum: Interview with Philip L. Fox", Executive Mansion, Sept. 7, 1861, you'll see that here's the last sentence: "Both are men of good character & Smith is brother-in-law to John Edgar Thompson."  Could that be the same former Chief Engineer and then-President of the PRR ? [more commonly spelled Thomson", I think]

 No one responded to the N. C Wyeth question, so here's the answer:

N. C. Wyeth was killed - along with his 4-year old grandson, Newell - in a grade crossing collision about a mile from his home on Oct. 19, 1945 with a PRR train (type uncertain) on the Octoraro branch.  Unusually, the collision with Wyeth's auto derailed the steam locomotive, which went down the embankment.  Source:  "N. C. Wyeth", by David Michaelis, which has an extensive recounting of the incident.  Today, the Brandywine River Museum is nearby, and also near where the PRR line crossed at grade the Reading's Wilmington & Northern branch, which is still in service from Coatesville to Wilmington, along with the western part of the Octoraro.  About 25 - 30 years ago a connection was installed in one quadrant of that crossing between the 2 lines to facilitate that.

Thanks for participating, Mike, and digging up that interesting stuff.  Any tips to share on how you do it ?

- Paul North.

[Deggesty]

Granger, Wy. (west of Green River) is the junction of the Oregon Shortline and the Union Pacific. This where trains from Washington state and California come together.

Johnny

[CShaveRR]

Deggesty

Granger, Wy. (west of Green River) is the junction of the Oregon Shortline and the Union Pacific. This where trains from Washington state and California come together.

Johnny

Granger is correct. I was watching the first of this week's trains on the computer as it passed through Granger (817 miles west of Council Bluffs) this morning.

Go, Johnny!

[wanswheel]

Paul, re: Tips. It's easy, just figure the right key words for search, like Porterfield + Ellis.

http://updigit.uproc.lib.mi.us/cdm4/viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hcrr&CISOPTR=359&CISOBOX=logging

http://updigit.uproc.lib.mi.us/cdm4/viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hcrr&CISOPTR=356&CISOBOX=logging

Mike

[Deggesty]

CShaveRR

Deggesty

Granger, Wy. (west of Green River) is the junction of the Oregon Shortline and the Union Pacific. This where trains from Washington state and California come together.

Johnny

Granger is correct. I was watching the first of this week's trains on the computer as it passed through Granger (817 miles west of Council Bluffs) this morning.

Go, Johnny!

Let's go back to the beginning of Amtrak's operation.

1. What two sections of routes in the May 1, 1971 timetable were not operated by Amtrak (one did not have through Amtrak service, and the other did have through service, but was not operated by Amtrak)?

2. The Washington connection to the Braodway Limited and the National Limited  was shifted from the Northern Central between Baltimore and Harrisburg to the line from Perryville, Md., through Columbia, Pa., to Harisburg. Name two advantages of the change.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

Deggesty

CShaveRR

Deggesty

Granger, Wy. (west of Green River) is the junction of the Oregon Shortline and the Union Pacific. This where trains from Washington state and California come together.

Johnny

Granger is correct. I was watching the first of this week's trains on the computer as it passed through Granger (817 miles west of Council Bluffs) this morning.

Go, Johnny!

Let's go back to the beginning of Amtrak's operation.

1. What two sections of routes in the May 1, 1971 timetable were not operated by Amtrak (one did not have through Amtrak service, and the other did have through service, but was not operated by Amtrak)?

2. The Washington connection to the Braodway Limited and the National Limited  was shifted from the Northern Central between Baltimore and Harrisburg to the line from Perryville, Md., through Columbia, Pa., to Harisburg. Name two advantages of the change.

Johnny

 

OK, as for question no. 1 there were three RR's that kept operating their own trains l-d:

l.  Rock Island line Chicago - Quad Cities.

2.  D&RGW from Denver west to (I think) Salt Lake City.

3.  Southern Rwy (NYC) Wahington - Atlanta (N.O. via afiliates)

 

2. I'll hazard a guess as to no. 2, advantages of shifting route:

1.  Slightly fewer miles to travel;

and 2.  Less of a "descent" into downtown Pittburgh than there was with the ex-B&O mainline routing. 

 

How'd I do?  - a.s.

 

 

[Deggesty]

Al, you almost got the two roads that I was referring to.

1. The Rock Island was not in the first Amtrak Timetable. The Rock did consider going into Amtrak (or Railpax, as it was first called), but realized that it would cost too much because the passenger service losses of the past few years were too great (the contribution to the start-up that each road had to make was based on passenger service losses over a certain period). It is interesting that the Southern was able to have the Central of Georgia considered as a separate road, even though the CG was then a part of the Southern Railroad System.

2. Yes, the Rio Grande was to forward the California Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake City. I can see two reasons why the UP was to be used between SLC and Ogden: better track, and there would be no back-up move in Ogden–the Rio Grande came into Ogden Union Station from the north, and the SP also came in from the north. There is/was a wye north of the station.

3. Since the Georgia Pacific (Atlanta to Greenville, Miss.) had been fully absorbed by the Southern Railway, the Southern carried the Southern Crescent into Birmingham, and the AGS (which by then had absorbed the NO&NE) carried the train on down to New Orleans. Of course, the NY-LA sleeper was carried from New Orleans to LA by the SP.

As to the route between Baltimore and Harrisburg, there was one major reason for going up the north bank of the Susquehanna. The second reason was not quite as important. You have good reasons, but I had not seen either one of them before. I am not certain that I saw my second reason stated anywhere, but it does (at least to me) follow from the operation that was necessary in Baltimore to get the train on the Northern Central. Amtrak does seem to be doing well with the current operation of the Capitol Limited through Pittsburgh.

I wish I had two copies of the first timetable, but by the time I thought of getting a second one, the Southern station in Tuscaloosa had no more.

Johnny

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Deggesty

2. The Washington connection to the Braodway Limited and the National Limited  was shifted from the Northern Central between Baltimore and Harrisburg to the line from Perryville, Md., through Columbia, Pa., to Harisburg. Name two advantages of the change.

Johnny

A.  Electrified line, so no engine change needed at Baltimore - would be at Harrisburg, same as for the Phila. / NYC section;

B.  Connection at Baltimore was the other direction, so don't have to change ends;

C.  Faster - much better alignment and grades thn the Northern Central.

- Paul North.

[Railway Man]

CShaveRR

I have a quick geography question--some people will get this right away, but will have to wait about ten hours for me to return.

A lot of folks know that my favorite trains to watch for are the Railex perishable trains for Rotterdam, New York. Two trains come every week from Wallula, Washington, and one train from Delfar, California. (Rumor has it that a second Delfar train could be added in a month or so.)

So, what location (city and state) is the first point on the UP that these trains share on their routes eastward?

 

I'm assuming Delfar is a station for Delano Farms?  Because the station of origin I understood to be Delano, California -- at least that is what it says on the Railex web site.

RWM

[CShaveRR]

I'm pretty sure you're right about that, RWM. The first couple of trains I monitored showed Delano as the departure point, then "Delfar" started coming up, and I no longer see Delano on the routing. I think Eric ("EricSP") or someone else confirmed this a while back. I should check the CIRC-7s on both of these to see how close they are to each other.

Edit: They're about two miles apart.

[Deggesty]

Paul, you have what I understood to be the main reason for the change from the Northern Central to the Port Road--no change of power was necessary between Washington and Harrisburg. Of course, it would have been possible to use a diesel out of Washington, but then the power would have had to be moved from one end to the other in Baltimore (as the UP did in Cheyenne when the City of St. Louis was operated into Cheyenne, and it did as long as Amtrak's California Zephyr was operated through Cheyenne). I don't know about seniority districts.

Now, I am in a fix. Al - in - Chicago answered the first question, and you answered the second, which was a little more obscure. I'll leave it this way: the first one (Paul or Al) who sees this post has  the option of posing a question or deferring to the other. I should have either stuck with one part or added a third part.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

Here's a short one and part of "present history":  without researching it, what company uses as its stock symbol "PACR" and what relationship does that company have to the railroad industry?  -  a.s.

 

[Railway Man]

PACCAR, formerly Pacific Car & Foundry, maker of Kenworth, Peterbilt, and D.A.F. trucks, formerly a freight-car and caboose builder, along with logging machinery.

................. edit ..........................

Oh Heck, it's actually not -- I checked the symbol, PACCAR is PCAR not PACR.  So I'm dyslexic.  Never mind, now that I've looked, I can't answer.  And to think I had dinner with their marketing VP two nights ago!  Oh the shame ... I hope they don't read this forum.

RWM

[al-in-chgo]

Railway Man

PACCAR, formerly Pacific Car & Foundry, maker of Kenworth, Peterbilt, and D.A.F. trucks, formerly a freight-car and caboose builder, along with logging machinery.

................. edit ..........................

Oh Heck, it's actually not -- I checked the symbol, PACCAR is PCAR not PACR.  So I'm dyslexic.  Never mind, now that I've looked, I can't answer.  And to think I had dinner with their marketing VP two nights ago!  Oh the shame ... I hope they don't read this forum.

RWM

Did the VP let on whether the company is a good investment?  -  al

 

[CShaveRR]

RWM, you heard about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac, didn't you? He stayed up all night thinking about whether there was a dog.

A partial answer to the question at hand: could this be the surviving remnant of the Penn Central Company? I can't imagine what connection they had to railroading!

[al-in-chgo]

CShaveRR

RWM, you heard about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac, didn't you? He stayed up all night thinking about whether there was a dog.

A partial answer to the question at hand: could this be the surviving remnant of the Penn Central Company? I can't imagine what connection they had to railroading!

 

--As far as I know the company in question was never part of Penn Central.  Hint:  It is a type of transportation company but is not a railroad.  - al 

 

[narig01]

 Al I admit I gave up. & looked. Interesting to see the result. I didn't think of it but should have seen it.

thx IGN

 

PS I think it may take some guesses.( and no I'm not giving away the answer)

[henry6]

Are we talking Pan American here?

[al-in-chgo]

henry6

Are we talking Pan American here?

Sorry, no.  This transportation company is up and operating today but doesn't operate a single train or fly a single plane.  

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Well, al-in-chgo responded 1st to Deggesty's challenge - which is fine - but it looks like I'll have to step in here on this one, so I wind up having a part anyway:

"PACR" is the ticker symbol for Pacer International, a subsidiary of which is the "Pacer Stacktrain" double-stack operation, the successor to the APL double-stack train operation.  Pacer is a "one-of" kind of freight transportation company, which handles international and domestic containers, TOFC, "3rd party logistics"  ("3PL"), trucking, contract shipping, and anything else that strikes their fancy.  I've owned 100 shares of their stock for about 3 years now - the price of which during that time closely resembles the profile of a roller-coaster . . .

- Paul North.

[al-in-chgo]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Well, al-in-chgo responded 1st to Deggesty's challenge - which is fine - but it looks like I'll have to step in here on this one, so I wind up having a part anyway:

"PACR" is the ticker symbol for Pacer International, a subsidiary of which is the "Pacer Stacktrain" double-stack operation, the successor to the APL double-stack train operation.  Pacer is a "one-of" kind of freight transportation company, which handles international and domestic containers, TOFC, "3rd party logistics"  ("3PL"), trucking, contract shipping, and anything else that strikes their fancy.  I've owned 100 shares of their stock for about 3 years now - the price of which during that time closely resembles the profile of a roller-coaster . . .

- Paul North.

I know how you feel; I'm holding a couple of alleged blue-chips that have tanked that way. 

Anyhow, you win.  Great answer!  I'll look forward to your next question.  -  a. s.

 

[Deggesty]

al-in-chgo

Paul_D_North_Jr

Well, al-in-chgo responded 1st to Deggesty's challenge - which is fine - but it looks like I'll have to step in here on this one, so I wind up having a part anyway:

"PACR" is the ticker symbol for Pacer International, a subsidiary of which is the "Pacer Stacktrain" double-stack operation, the successor to the APL double-stack train operation.  Pacer is a "one-of" kind of freight transportation company, which handles international and domestic containers, TOFC, "3rd party logistics"  ("3PL"), trucking, contract shipping, and anything else that strikes their fancy.  I've owned 100 shares of their stock for about 3 years now - the price of which during that time closely resembles the profile of a roller-coaster . . .

- Paul North.

I know how you feel; I'm holding a couple of alleged blue-chips that have tanked that way. 

Anyhow, you win.  Great answer!  I'll look forward to your next question.  -  a. s.

 

Congratulation, Paul; I had no idea at all as to the answer to Al's question.

Johnny

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

OK, here goes (with something not so esoteric as my "last-resort" rail section questions):

The Pennsylvania RR (PRR) and the New York Central (NYC) each owned many different kinds and models of locomotives - steam, electric, and diesel, etc. - and each went through several different motive power "phases", up until their fleets were combined  in the Penn Central merger.  But there was one notable kind that neither one had as many* of as you might think or expect for roads that large, especially when compared with adjoining railroads. 

(* - It looks like each had around a dozen specimens.)

What kind was it ?  (Research should not be needed for this one.)

 

[henry6]

My first swipe is the E8...neither road had that many compared neighbors and compared to the rest of the respective fleets of each. After that it would havd to be the 4-8-4 steamers, again not as many as the neighbors.