This is why I am stuck with the Ware River Line and Quobog Reservoir as it bisected the straight line of the Mass Central east of Amherst to Ware...
But if not, then we must look at the Fitchburg RR east out of Greenfield/Deerfield and some dam built there toward Athol that caused the Mass Central to abandon it route..
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Since this is taking a while, I'll confirm some of your musings...
The project I'm thinking of was a reservoir built to supply water for Boston. The dam never had any hydro electric equipment. It was the largest gravity dam when completed in 1905, and still remains the world's largest hand-dug dam. It is 205 feet tall and 965 feet long. It is located in the central part of the state.
Also, none of you have guessed the river yet...
B) 1) Wachusett Reservoir
The bridge was over the Lancaster Mill Pond in Clinton, and the tunnel is through the hill just to the east of same, just east of / under Rts. 62 / 70/ Boylston St.
2) The then-abandoned railroad was the Old Colony Railroad* - see the "1888 image of the corridor" - a route map of the Massachusetts Central - and the circa 1908 "Antique Topo Map" of "Hudson, Berlin, Clinton, West Boylston", which are linked at:
http://www.masscentralrailtrail.org/mapsofthemcrt.html
* - This is a stretch, but the clues got me there. The segments are so short and the lables so spaced out on the various maps that it could have equally well been one of the branches of the B&M or the NYNH&H.
3) South Branch of the Nashua River - see:
http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/central/wachRes.htm
I can claim some knowledge of this line, other than / from before this question, my SPV Railroad Atlas, and the above links (and Internet research generally). About 6 years ago my wife & I rented bikes & rode the segment from Northampton east to Amherst - including the long bridge over the Connecticut River, and the then-new underpass of Route 9 / Russell St. - to the Mountain Farms Mall, and return. We ate lunch at a cafe in what had to be a former freight station in Hadley, and got dinner from the Hadley Whole Foods, which is actually just west of the mall, on the southwest side of Amherst. Would highly recommend it, except that on the Sunday afternoon we were there, it was easily the most crowded and busy rail-trail we've ever been on - it felt and looked more like a city sidewalk !
- Paul North.
P.S. - It's now the Mass Central Rail Trail - see:
http://www.masscentralrailtrail.org/home.html
And I believe that the reservoir that others were thinking of is the Quabbin Reservoir, which apparently also bisected the Mass. Central, but further west.
Yeah....ah...in my mind I was right... but because 40 years seperates me from having lived there I am not in my right mind by geographical names and precise locations...there were no bike trails back then, just old dirt roads into reservoir lands, which even a 6 cyl. stick shift Ford Falcon shouldn't have tried...
DING DING DING! We have a winner!
Yes, the Wachusett Reservoir is correct. It was built by damming the Nashua River in Clinton, MA. The bridge was over the valley close to the foot of the dam. To the east it crosses over Rt 70 before entering the tunnel.
One trick that steam locomotive engineers used to play on new firemen was to not tell them about the bridge. They'd be going through the tunnel, and the fireman would be standing on the footplate just a few feet from the edge. Then they'd come out of the tunnel, and the fireman would be standing on the edge of the locomotive on a hundred+ foot high bridge with no railing!
And I thought the then abandoned railroad was the Worcester, Nashua, and Rochester Railroad, but I could be wrong.
The rail trail starts in West Boylston, on the other side of the reservoir from the dam and goes west. The bridge near the dam is long gone, but the tunnel survives, and the abutment for the bridge is hidden in the weeds. You can climb up and hike through the tunnel; there is no parking or anything, and that part technically isn't part of the trail, but the roadbed is smooth and clear of debris. I've walked through the whole tunnel.
Heading east, the line crosses the CSX Leominster Branch on a long-gone bridge, and then heads through the outskirts of Berlin. It still has crossties and rail at this point. It goes under I-495 and continues east.
I belive the line is railbanked or something; as there is nothing built on the ROW, and all the bridge abutments are still there. I highly doubt it will be rebuilt, but I can always dream... It would be nice to have an active rail line within biking distance...
Here are a couple photos and aerial photos of the tunnel and dam area.
Tunnel:
You can see the bridge pilings in the water at the base of the dam here. If you look to the right of them you'll see the tunnel entrance.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.404763,-71.685287&spn=0.003383,0.006303&t=h&z=18
Paul, the next question is yours. Congratulations!
Tyler, I was curious about the abandoned railroad, and I checked in the June, 1870, Guide and in the SPV atlas. What I found from these is that the Worcester and Nashua (later the Worcester, Nashua and Rochester; still later a part of the B&M) went from Worcester through West Bolyston, Oakdale, Clinton, Lancaster, Groton Junction, and Hollis on its way to Nashua. The Guide listing shows nine miles from Worcester to West Boylston, and this seems to be the shortest distance by highway between the two, so this line (which still exists) was not the one. Was there have been an extension east from West Boylston that was abandoned, and the ROW was used by the Central Mass.? Incidentally, the SPV atlas shows the road as being intact up to Groton Jct., and abandoned the rest of the way to Rochester.
Johnny
Thank yuh, thank yuh very much !
Johnny - If you haven't already, check out the 1888 Mass Central map on the Rail-Trails website that I linked to above, and also the circa 1908 Antique Topo Map, which shows a "snapshot" of this area at a very large scale as the rail lines were just after the dam was completed. There appears to have been several from Clinton to the southeast and on the northwest - some no more than a mile or two in length - and other than where the tunnel and bridge are/ were, it's hard for me to discern which was newly built for the dam, and which was old, abandoned, and reused for the relocation. With your 1870 Official Guide, by comparing the routes for the several railroads you may be able to unravel the puzzle.
OK, for the new question, I want to get it out of the Northeast US so as to give some others - maybe even the Canadians ! - a chance of answering one. So here goes:
Name the Upper Midwestern town where Henry Ford had some personal involvement with the railroad's depot (fair warning: accounts vary as to exactly what it was, so I'll be vague and leave it go at that to accept all of the possible variations), which is not associated with the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton R.R. or any of the in-plant railroads at the auto assembly plants, or similar. The depot and another major structure in town were the setting for a major motion picture. As of about 10 years ago, both the depot and other structure were available for travelers to stay overnight.
Extra points if you can name the original railroad that served the town.
Good luck !
Paul, I think have found something from the site you posted and from the June, 1870, June, 1893, and June, 1916, Guides. In 1893, the Central Massachusetts went from West Berlin to Oakdale via Boylston and West Boylston; in 1916, it went via Clinton Jct. The 1920 map from the Massachusetts Rail Trail shows that the southern route was abandoned in 1903. It used the Boston, Clinton & Fitchburg from West Berlin to Clinton Jct., and from there it used the WN&R (all three rr’s were in the B&M fold then) to get into Oakdale. So, the abandoned rr apparently was the Cent. Mass. west of West Berlin Jct. on in to Oakdale. The new route is apparently one mile longer than the original route.
If anybody can come up with more information, do not hesitate to post it--even if it is quite different from what I found.
History is interesting.
I have found a correction to my last post William Edson, in his Railroad Names, states that the BC&F went into the B&M. However, both the 1893 and 1916 Guides show the Old Colony/NH as going from Framingham to Fitchburg through Berlin & Clinton. The SPV shows a line from West Berlin to Clinton Jct. that was abandoned by the B&M. I cannot determine just what this road was originally, but this may well have been already abandoned at the time the dam was constructed and the CM was rerouted over the ROW. Again, this may have been all-new construction.
Yes, before the construction of the reservoir the Central Mass went through Boylston (an area known as Sawyer's Mill) and West Boylston. There were two stations in Boylston, although both were of the flag stop variety. Even now, Boylston has a population of only about 5,000 people. The line through Boylston was abandoned when the Nashua was dammed, and the whole valley was flooded. Sawyer's Mill is now completely underwater.
In Oakdale, the two (pre-flood and rost-flood) lines rejoined. That is where the rail trail starts. If you ride a few miles out, you'll cross the Nashua at least twice on new bridges (I saw them both being constructed) and if you go down by the abutments you'll see the origanal bridge abutments.
I'm particularly interested in the Central Mass, as it's my local railroad...
Deggesty I have found a correction to my last post William Edson, in his Railroad Names, states that the BC&F went into the B&M. However, both the 1893 and 1916 Guides show the Old Colony/NH as going from Framingham to Fitchburg through Berlin & Clinton. The SPV shows a line from West Berlin to Clinton Jct. that was abandoned by the B&M. I cannot determine just what this road was originally, but this may well have been already abandoned at the time the dam was constructed and the CM was rerouted over the ROW. Again, this may have been all-new construction. Johnny
Johnny - and any others who care about this -
I believe the "webmaster" for the Mass Central Rail-Trail website is Craig DellaPenna, who has written a number of guide books on rail-trails, and as I recall, an article or two for Trains. So one of us could e-mail him with this question, and see if he can shed any light on it - I have to believe he'd be responsive to an intelligently composed question. It may be a day or two until I get around to it, so I won't object if you or TrainManTy (or anybody else) does so instead. Just let me know - say, by posting a copy of your inquiry here - so the poor guy doesn't get flooded with the same question multiple times.
By the way, have you checked out the track chart excerpts that are also linked at the Trail's website ? That's rare enough to see, esp. with all the "pencilled-in" annotations. I didn't see where they were much help to us on this - they're probably all from post-1908 relocation construction, so they don't reflect the prior owners - but the details are interesting nevertheless.
Paul_D_North_Jr OK, for the new question, I want to get it out of the Northeast US so as to give some others - maybe even the Canadians ! - a chance of answering one. So here goes: Name the Upper Midwestern town where Henry Ford had some personal involvement with the railroad's depot (fair warning: accounts vary as to exactly what it was, so I'll be vague and leave it go at that to accept all of the possible variations), which is not associated with the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton R.R. or any of the in-plant railroads at the auto assembly plants, or similar. The depot and another major structure in town were the setting for a major motion picture. As of about 10 years ago, both the depot and other structure were available for travelers to stay overnight. Extra points if you can name the original railroad that served the town. Good luck ! - Paul North.
OK, here's what I'll do to move this along: Each day (or so) that it goes unsuccessfully answered, I'll post an additional clue or hint (or two). I figure in about a week or 10 days, we'll either have a winner, or else I'll just post the answer. So here's today's added clue, and a confirmation of a detail:
The detail: After checking some other references, it now appears pretty clear that Henry Ford paid to have the depot moved/ relocated, so as to provide him with a better view of something (the "something" will be a future clue, if it comes to that).
Today's clue: It's all in the State of Michigan (and no, none of it is in the water, in case you're thinking that's where this is headed).
Paul,
I'll try a SWAG at your question. Did Ford have the Dearborn, MI depot of the Michigan Central moved so he could better view his museum and Greenfield Village?
Mark
Actually, that's maybe a worthwhile guess - but no, that's not the location or depot that I'm asking about.
Even though I've been there (many years ago), I don't recall anything about that depot being moved - but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that wasn't the reason why !
Also, in reviewing my question, I should have been clearer that it wasn't in the metro Detroit area either For some reason I thought that my question's premise would have ruled out Greenfield Village - as tomorrow's clue will make clear (if we go that long). Also, I'm not aware of any major motion picture having been filmed there, or that visitors could spend the night in the depot. Again, either of these could have happened - I'm just not aware of them.
Thanks for the try, Mark - feel free to try again.
Anyone else ?
Here's todays clue: It's in Michigan's Upper Peninsula ("UP"). (This cuts down the range of possible answers by way more than half.)
Paul_D_North_Jr Paul_D_North_Jr OK, for the new question, I want to get it out of the Northeast US so as to give some others - maybe even the Canadians ! - a chance of answering one. So here goes: Name the Upper Midwestern town where Henry Ford had some personal involvement with the railroad's depot (fair warning: accounts vary as to exactly what it was, so I'll be vague and leave it go at that to accept all of the possible variations), which is not associated with the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton R.R. or any of the in-plant railroads at the auto assembly plants, or similar. The depot and another major structure in town were the setting for a major motion picture. As of about 10 years ago, both the depot and other structure were available for travelers to stay overnight. Extra points if you can name the original railroad that served the town. Good luck ! OK, here's what I'll do to move this along: Each day (or so) that it goes unsuccessfully answered, I'll post an additional clue or hint (or two). I figure in about a week or 10 days, we'll either have a winner, or else I'll just post the answer. So here's today's added clue, and a confirmation of a detail: The detail: After checking some other references, it now appears pretty clear that Henry Ford paid to have the depot moved/ relocated, so as to provide him with a better view of something (the "something" will be a future clue, if it comes to that). Today's clue: It's all in the State of Michigan (and no, none of it is in the water, in case you're thinking that's where this is headed).
Paul_D_North_Jr OK, for the new question, I want to get it out of the Northeast US so as to give some others - maybe even the Canadians ! - a chance of answering one. So here goes: Name the Upper Midwestern town where Henry Ford had some personal involvement with the railroad's depot (fair warning: accounts vary as to exactly what it was, so I'll be vague and leave it go at that to accept all of the possible variations), which is not associated with the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton R.R. or any of the in-plant railroads at the auto assembly plants, or similar. The depot and another major structure in town were the setting for a major motion picture. As of about 10 years ago, both the depot and other structure were available for travelers to stay overnight. Extra points if you can name the original railroad that served the town. Good luck !
It seems a lot of wood was built into the early Fords.
http://www.highway41north.com/picture_ford_sawmill_1920s_locomotive2_1.JPG
http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima3354/sn-2640.htm
Mike
Mike -
You're close, but even giving you the benefit of some inferences - you didn't actually name the town, for instance - no, this isn't it. But you're on the right track . . . keep going !
That's a great website, and set of photos of the Ford plant in L'Anse. For those who haven't looked yet, the linked photo appears to be the "off-side" of a 2-truck Shay - the side without the cylinders and crankshaft. And check out those truck covers/ fenders ? Sleek, ever for the 1920's - have never seen that before. Precursors of tail fin syling, perhaps ? Maybe Modelcar or someone else can tell us more or relate to it - Quentin ?
Looking forward to the next post/ guess on this !
wanswheel It seems a lot of wood was built into the early Fords. http://www.highway41north.com/picture_ford_sawmill_1920s_locomotive2_1.JPG Mike
Johnny -
Like this ?
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1940-1949/1940-Ford-Deluxe-Woody-Station-Wagon-fa-lr.jpg
Yes, Paul, that's a woody, for sure.
Paul, I can't name the town because the rule is no research.
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=1c99e0a979a6fbf6_large
Could you elaborate on your understanding of the above "rule" ? Because I hadn't seen or heard of it before. For some of the preceding questions, I can't imagine that they could be answered by anyone without at least some research - even if only in old-fashioned books, like the Official Guide, for example - unless the respondent is a walking encyclopedia of all railroad trivia.
Nice link to that Shay's data page, too - 3-ft. gauge, no less ! And yes, those were fenders, proably to keep errant logs and boards out of the gears.
Anyway, hang in there, you seem like you know the subject with your posts, and you may get it yet !
Paul_D_North_Jr Mike - Could you elaborate on your understanding of the above "rule" ? Because I hadn't seen or heard of it before. For some of the preceding questions, I can't imagine that they could be answered by anyone without at least some research - even if only in old-fashioned books, like the Official Guide, for example - unless the respondent is a walking encyclopedia of all railroad trivia. Nice link to that Shay's data page, too - 3-ft. gauge, no less ! And yes, those were fenders, proably to keep errant logs and boards out of the gears. Anyway, hang in there, you seem like you know the subject with your posts, and you may get it yet ! - Paul North.
I think I can speak to the research issue, too, since I was the second person to post on the prior (original) TRAINS Railroad History thread, that lasted over a year. There was an understanding from the git-go (post no. 1 IIRC) that people were not to research answers. However, I can think of cases where there were stumpers and people knew they had the definitive answer among their railroad books . . . or in the May 1937 OGR, or whatever...and would research. In such cases they told us they were researching and that was cool.
Frankly, I am not enjoying the more recent questions questions so much anymore precisely because they have to be researched to be answered. When it gets to the level of "what RR used a ten-and-six sleeper except Fridays and what was its name" or "what train had a through coach with a three hour and 12 minute layover in central Georgia" (I am exaggerating, but only a little.), in such cases there isn't much fascination in holding out for the answer -- at least, not for me. Not allowing reseach encourages guesses that can stumble onto (or near) the truth. Requiring research means that the best amateur historians with the biggest collections (and/or the swiftest Googling skills) can rule. And there's nothing wrong that the people with the best information should win, but still I think there should be some entertainment value to be had.
I'm wondering how the rest of you feel about this. It's OUR Quiz, after all. - al s.
I think they'll all fine, as long as there's a mix. I did feel that we had quite a few esoteric Pacific Northwest passenger train question for a while, but that's because I don't know much about that area of the country. Maybe, some thought some of my questions about the northeast and locmotives were equally esoteric. So be it!
I like questioins were some educated guesses can make some inroads, even when nobody knows the answer.
I'm wondering if looking at maps should be an allowed form of research - or if the questioner should think about allowing it.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
wanswheel Paul, I can't name the town because the rule is no research. http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=1c99e0a979a6fbf6_large Mike
Mike - and others:
For this question, I don't care = you can do all the research you want or like, wherever and however you like. I think the question can't be answered without at least some, but I took some effort to make sure it wasn't too easily answerable just off the Internet. An interchangeable combination of that and local knowledge would seem to me to work the best . . .
That said, can you tell me more about the identity or location of the linked photo (above), and why you responded to the present status of the question with it ? I don't recognize it as being connected with the question - other than being in a depot - but maybe you know something more or additional that I don't. In the meantime, I'll dig a little more at my end to see if I can get enough of a match or info to be able to say whether it represents a valid answer, or not.
And in case it doesn't, here's today's clue:
The depot is/ was on a rail line that was not - ever- part of or operated by the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic Railroad ("DSS&A"), its predecessor(s), or successors - the Soo Line, Wisconsin Central, or CN, etc. (That's why Mike's reference yesterday to the Ford Shay at their plant at L'Anse doesn't work.)
Since the DSS&A was the primary railroad across the Upper Peninsula, this ought to narrow the range of answers down considerably. As a local DJ - John DiBella on Philly's WMMR-FM used to say when playing music clips for his "Identify that song" contest, it's "More than enough !"
The photo is from the movie "Anatomy of a Murder". IIRC it was set in the fictional town of Thunder Bay, MI on the U.P. I don't know the real town in which it was shot, but the C&NW depot should help somebody.
Getting closer - maybe closer than you think or know - but not quite there yet:
The C&NW on the depot is fictional, too. That railroad - nor the DSS&A - were nowhere near anything that is the subject of this question.
Paul, the picture of Jimmy Stewart and Ben Gazarra was taken at Ishpeming.
http://www.usgwarchives.org/mi/marquette/postcards/iscndp.jpg
As you know, the Lake Superior & Ishpeming did go to the town in question, although not lately.
Here, as an extra added distraction, is a picture of the Ford shipping department.
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b00000/3b01000/3b01700/3b01771r.jpg
OK, Mike -
Well, I think you know that it's not "Ishpeming, Mich.", either.
So are you going to name the town, or keep everyone else hanging ?
Is that neat photo of the Ford shipping dept. from the L'Anse plant, or the Ford plant in the "mystery town" ? (That's another minor clue, for those who are still paying attention here.)
I've since found all kinds of trivia about some of the clues, which I'll post in due course. This has turned out better than I'd expected !
wanswheel Paul, the picture of Jimmy Stewart and Ben Gazarra was taken at Ishpeming. http://www.usgwarchives.org/mi/marquette/postcards/iscndp.jpg As you know, the Lake Superior & Ishpeming did go to the town in question, although not lately. Here, as an extra added distraction, is a picture of the Ford shipping department. http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b00000/3b01000/3b01700/3b01771r.jpg Mike
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