E8's: Not sure how many E8's the PRR had - but I believe that Bennett Levin's restored pair are 2 of them. Anyway, I think it was way more than a dozen. No idea of the size of NYC's fleet (yet). This isn't the answer I had in mind, but if someone can support it (or if I can find it) - which I think is unlikely, though - then I'll concede that this is a "correct" answer to the question as posed. Until then, I'll keep accepting entries . . .
On the 4-8-4's: You're right about the PRR*, but the NYC had many splendid specimens - know as "Niagaras" - certainly way more than a dozen**, so that's not the answer, either.
* - Unless you count the T-1, the 4-4-4-4 duplex (split) drive as a 4-8-4, which I don't, but there were around 50 of them anyway, so that answer won't work either.
** - There were actually 28 Niagaras, according to 1 source I just consulted.
Conclusion: Still need the correct answer.
- Paul North.
Then neither road, as I recall, had a PA. Plenty of FA's, even FPA, but no PA's!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Hmm, that's interesting. Not the answer I was looking for, but it might work, except for the fact that as the original question stated, both NYC and PRR had about a dozen of the intended answer, and "no PAs" is a lot less than a dozen !
Also, the original question noted that most of the adjoining roads had the locomotive type that the PRR and NYC did not - so if you want to pursue this, then which adjoining roads had PAs ? I know D&H had the 4 or 5 ex-ATSF PA's in the 1970s and 1980s, but who else in the NorthEast US did ?
PA's on the Erie (and EL) plus LV and NKP. B&O? I think, yes, if an old Howard Fogg Alco print serve me correctly. Yes, the D&H under Bruce Sterzing bought the PA's from Sante Fe, but that was after the hayday, and as second owner, I would'nt count them. But that's not your question. I am begining to think I am too close to the forest to see the trees!
Paul I thought you were talking about the PAs. The New York Central had a dozen, 18 if you count the P&LE units. The Pennsy had five ABA sets. Other contemporary eastern PAs were New Haven, Erie, Lehigh Valley and Nickel Plate. The D&H had five PAs (four ex AT&SF and one NH for parts), but those units were not contemporary to the NYC and PRR units.
The answer I was looking for was . . . artic+ulated steam locomotives.
Both PRR & NYC had about 3 classes, some of which were "one-of"s (or "one-off"s, as seems to be the preferred expression these days). If anyone's interested, I'll post my references later today. henry6, I was holding my breath when you mentioned the 4-8-4's and I responded to clarify that the T-1 wouldn't qualify. I didn't dare also mention that it was a rigid-frame loco - as was the Q-class and several others - because I thought that might be a big tip-off to what the answer might be.
Now, what do I do with these answers by henry6 and SSW9389 to determine the earliest correct answer ? The original question stated that both NYC and PRR had about a dozen of the loco type was being asked about. henry6 was the first to mention the PAs, but as part of that answer he also unfortunately stated that "Then neither road, as I recall, had a PA. . . . but no PA's!" [emphasis added - PDN.], which was contrary to the question, and he did not retract or correct that portion of his answer. However, SSW9389 identifies the PAs as being on both NYC and PRR, which is consistent with the question. Both identified several adjoining roads which had PAs, and their answers agreed pretty much, so that's not determinative. Therefore, I think SSW9389 was the first to identify the loco that both the PRR and the NYC had only a few of, which is what the question asked and contemplated.
Thanks for participating. Your turn to ask a new question, SSW9389.
Okay, I'll play History Quiz. Name the five entities that controlled the St. Louis Southwestern Railway from its inception in January 1891 until it was merged into Union Pacific on September 30, 1997.
Ed
Lets start with Rock Island, Wabash, Southern Pacific, NKP and L&N.
henry6 you have named two out of the five. Union Pacific would actually have been a sixth with the merger with SP, but I was not counting that one as St. Louis Southwestern was a paper corporation by then. There are three other entities that controlled Cotton Belt that have not been named.
henry6 Lets start with Rock Island, Wabash, Southern Pacific, NKP and L&N.
OK then: RI, SP, TP, MKT, IC.
henry6 the first two are correct. The MKT was involved with another lines operational plan for the Cotton Belt, but the MKT was never in control. Still three unnamed entities that controlled the Cotton Belt, it was never free of someone's control.
henry6 OK then: RI, SP, TP, MKT, IC.
What I am looking for to answer the question is a family name, three railroads (two of which have been named by henry6), and a corporation. These five entities controlled St. Louis Southwestern at one time or another prior to its inclusion in Union Pacific.
All right. RI and SP. Then Frisco. MoPac, and Sante Fe.
Well those are three good guesses, but not the railroad that controlled SSW for a couple of years. Missouri Pacific and Cotton Belt did have a common owner back in the day. The Frisco did get entangled with the C&EI back in the early part of the 20th Century, but never Cotton Belt. Santa Fe was never in the running.
Well, I'll answer that the family was the Goulds - Jay and George - as part of their late 1800's empire building moves, I'm pretty sure they also owned the MoPac. I'm a little challenged by the other 2 railroads and the corporation. henry6 already guessed Wabash, which would have been my next choice, as the Goulds seemed to use it as a vehicle to do everything they had in mind. I'm not familiar with the territory, so I'll take a "SWAG" here and say the Mobile & Ohio is 1 of the 2 RRs. Beyond that - no idea.
Yes the Gould Family was deeply involved in the Cotton Belt from its inception in 1890-1891 until it was sold the first time in 1925. For a number of years Edwin Gould was President of the Cotton Belt. The Cotton Belt was a vassal road of the Gould Family until it was sold to the Rock Island. Which railroad bought control of the Cotton Belt from the Rock Island is still open. There was also a company that had control of the Cotton Belt for a short time.
In summary three of the five entities that controlled Cotton Belt before its inclusion in Union Pacific have been identified: The Gould Family, Rock Island, and Southern Pacific.
Then the family we are missing is the Van Swerigen of the Erie-C&O-NKP hook up but the NKP was already knocked out. So, we go to the west and we have to have the Denver and Rio Grande and the Western Pacific.
We already have the Family that controlled the Cotton Belt: The Gould Family from 1891-1925. And two of the three railroads have been named: Rock Island and Southern Pacific. The third railroad was owned by a prominent eastern railroader. This third railroad connected with the Cotton Belt at several places. The corporation that controlled the Cotton Belt bought control from this third railroad.
All right then we must be talking CB&Q as the railroad and the Vanderbilts for the family meaning the NYC's Big Four as the second. Third railroad is CNW?
In the context of this question the third railroad connected with the southern part of the Cotton Belt in three different states. This third railroad was trying to form a partnership between itself, Cotton Belt and MKT. When that plan failed this third railroad sold its stock to a corporation.
KCS. But to the east I am stumped...all that is left is the N&W and the Southern.
Yes KCS was the third railroad I was looking for in this question. Leonor F. Loree was part owner of KCS while he was still President of the D&H. He had also spent some time as President of the MKT in the late 1920s.
I am going to go ahead and give the answer for this question. Through perserverance and throwing a lot of names out there henry6 has named the three railroads so he gets the next question if I understand the rules right. The five entities that controlled the Cotton Belt from its inception in 1891 to its inclusion in Union Pacific are: The Gould Family until March 11, 1925, The Rock Island for a short time in 1925, The Kansas City Southern until 1929, New York Investors, Inc. and The Southern Pacific Company bought New York Investors controlling stock in 1930, but did not begin to exercise control over Cotton Belt until April 19, 1932. Data from Joe Strapac's Cotton Belt Locomotives p.7.
henry6 KCS. But to the east I am stumped...all that is left is the N&W and the Southern.
Loree! My good friend Bill Young better not find out about me missing that or I'll never live it down!! I am so close to the D&H property and Loree could reach out and kick me! And I'd deserve it!
L. F. Loree and E. Roland Harriman were elected to Cotton Belt's Board of Dirctors on October 30, 1925. Loree wanted a rail system based on a combination of Cotton Belt, KCS, and MKT. Loree's plan was not approved by the ICC and this led to the KCS sale of the Cotton Belt stock to New York Investors in 1929.
henry6 Loree! My good friend Bill Young better not find out about me missing that or I'll never live it down!! I am so close to the D&H property and Loree could reach out and kick me! And I'd deserve it!
Loree article in Time magazine 1926
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,721974,00.html
Loree article in Time magazine 1927
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,730652,00.html
Cotton Belt stock particulars in Railroad Consolidation West of The Mississippi River
http://books.google.com/books?id=3YsPS2o65fUC&pg=PA156&dq=%22St.+Louis+Southwestern%22+%22New+York+Investors%22&lr=&as_brr=3
Mike
There was a Time magazine back in 1926 and 1927 ?
Wonder how or why the magazine's "style" editor changed his (her ?) preference for the "nickname" of the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad ("M-K-T") from "Katy" in the 1926 article to "Katie" in the 1927 article ?
SSW9389 -
That was a good - and tough and fun - "purely" history question. I think you "moderated" it well, too. Thanks !
Time for Katy in 1928
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,731957,00.html
ARRIGHT. I guess I'm up to make a pitch. I know of two cases where the names of the two end points of a line are merely reverse spellings. One is on a major class one the ohther remains part of the short line. I am hoping these are the only two instances anyway.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.