KCSfan Johnny, Here's another WAG that I've come up with based on your last hint that it turned south before reaching Grafton. I can't begin to think of a logical reason for the inprobable route I describe but who knows what the rationale might have been back in the early 20th century. B&O Washington - Shenandoah Jct. N&W Shenandoah Jct. - Bristol Southern Bristol - New Orleans Mark
Johnny,
Here's another WAG that I've come up with based on your last hint that it turned south before reaching Grafton. I can't begin to think of a logical reason for the inprobable route I describe but who knows what the rationale might have been back in the early 20th century.
B&O Washington - Shenandoah Jct.
N&W Shenandoah Jct. - Bristol
Southern Bristol - New Orleans
Mark
You should see some of the routings of through sleepers to Chicago for the 1893 exposition there.
It's your question.
Johnny
CShaveRR Your WAG sounds good to me, but B&O didn't serve Charleston. Substitute Huntington for Charleston, and you may have it. Or perhaps Kenova.
Your WAG sounds good to me, but B&O didn't serve Charleston. Substitute Huntington for Charleston, and you may have it. Or perhaps Kenova.
Carl,
My eyesight ain't what it once was so I had to go back and check an old OG and it does show a B&O line coming off the main at Grafton and running to Charleston. In the mid 1950's there was still local passenger service (I wouldn't be surprised if it only a doodlebug) that ran on this line from Grafton as far as Burnsville Jct. but only freight service from there to Charleston. I agree that both Kenova and Huntington are other good possibilities if in fact a part of this through Pullman's route was over the C&O.
Mark, you have the right direction out of Washington, but you go too far before going south. When I first saw this route listed, I at first wondered about where the car left the B&O, and then I saw that the junction really exists. Considering some of the old-time sleeper routes and how they wove back and forth, your WAG could have been tried at one time--but it's not the one I have in mind.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Deggesty Thanks, Texas Zepher. Let's go back east and back a few (100 or more) years--how did the B&O participate in a Washington-New Orleans sleeper that did not go through Cincinnati; name roads and junction points (I won't ask for train names)? If you have studied one of the reprinted Official Guides you may remember this. Johnny
Thanks, Texas Zepher. Let's go back east and back a few (100 or more) years--how did the B&O participate in a Washington-New Orleans sleeper that did not go through Cincinnati; name roads and junction points (I won't ask for train names)? If you have studied one of the reprinted Official Guides you may remember this.
I'll take a WAG at this one. Thank you for not asking for train names. I'm pretty ancient but even I wasn't around 100 years ago.
B&O Washington - Charleston,WV
C&O Charleston - Louisville
L&N Louisville - New Orleans
My additonal comment about the Indian Detours should have been put on the Classic Trains Forum. This misplacing comes from looking at too many forums close together and forgetting what was said on each one.
Texas Zepher KCSfanYou're warm enough so I'll give the answer and you can get on with the next question.I found this to be a totally delightful question! I actually don't have a question ready so if Deggesty wants to take it then he is welcome. Otherwise, I will muster one up some time tomorrow (Thanksgiving) evening.
KCSfanYou're warm enough so I'll give the answer and you can get on with the next question.
As to Indian Detours, I don't think that you would have rejoined the same train that you left to take the detour; it probably would would been at least the next day if not later. There were also detours operated in conjunction with the SP in Arizona.
A happy Thanksgiving to all of you; we are off to church in about an hour.
Texas Zepher Well keying off the 1925 date I just perused the financial record titles on file at the Newberry Library in Chicago http://www.newberry.org/collections/FindingAids/icrr/ICRR.html#series15 Without actually calling up each of the documents, for that date there seem to be four candidates: Yazoo and Mississippi Valley Railroad Company or Vicksburg, Shreveport & Pacific Which both seem to have been acquired by the Alabama & Vicksburg Rwy before the IC purchased it. Gulf and Ship Island Railroad (seems to be an independent operating company until 1945 but something funny happened because the records stop in 1925 and then pick up again in 1943.) Which was sold to Gulf, Mobile & Northern Railroad as was the Birmingham & Northwestern Railway. I cannot find where the IC purchased the GM&N....Probably 1946 based on the sudden disappearance of board meeting records at that time. based on your other hint of X&YZ format that would limit it to the Y&MV or G&SI choices. If it is the Y&MV then the mystery is solved because then it could have been both the Y&MV and A&V as prior owners.
Well keying off the 1925 date I just perused the financial record titles on file at the Newberry Library in Chicago http://www.newberry.org/collections/FindingAids/icrr/ICRR.html#series15
Without actually calling up each of the documents, for that date there seem to be four candidates:
Yazoo and Mississippi Valley Railroad Company
or
Vicksburg, Shreveport & Pacific
Which both seem to have been acquired by the Alabama & Vicksburg Rwy before the IC purchased it.
Gulf and Ship Island Railroad (seems to be an independent operating company until 1945 but something funny happened because the records stop in 1925 and then pick up again in 1943.)
Which was sold to Gulf, Mobile & Northern Railroad as was the Birmingham & Northwestern Railway.
I cannot find where the IC purchased the GM&N....Probably 1946 based on the sudden disappearance of board meeting records at that time.
based on your other hint of X&YZ format that would limit it to the Y&MV or G&SI choices. If it is the Y&MV then the mystery is solved because then it could have been both the Y&MV and A&V as prior owners.
Also from looking it up, the A&V, which had been the Vicksburg & Meridian, became a part of the Y&MV in 1926. The VS&P became part of the Y&MV at the same time as the A&V did.
The Y&MV was taken into the IC in 1946, but its trains were listed in the IC timetables before then.
TZ,
You're warm enough so I'll give the answer and you can get on with the next question. These engines originally belonged to the Gulf & Ship Island whose mainline ran between Jackson and Gulfport, MS. The IC acquired the G&SI in 1925 and though it remained a corporate entity until 1945 it was operated as a part of the IC system. The line still operates today and the part north of Hattiesburg is owned by the CN and the southern portion to Gulfport is owned by the KCS.
Following their conversion to burn coal No's 3602-06 were brought to Chicagoland to work the humps at the IC's Markham Yard. They proved unsatisfactory for this duty because as coal burners they lacked sufficient grate area to produce enough steam for hump service. They soldiered on in general switching service at Markham until they were scrapped in the 1950's. I had a special interest in these odd switchers because my first time in an engine cab was on the 3605 in 1942. I came upon the old girl when she was on the ground after derailing on a too sharp curve leading into a coal and lumber yard. I was invited up and got a half hour explanation about the engine from her very friendly engineer and fireman while they waited for a rerailing crew from Markhan Yard. Fascinating stuff for a 10 year old boy.
Yes their Vanderbilt tenders were unique in that No's. 3602-06 were the only IC engines to my kowledge that had them. Their other distinction was that they were originally oilburners and converted to coal when they came on the IC roster. Based on this fact and what one of their enginemen personally told me about the duty they were originally built for I don't think they were converted from 2-10-2 road engines but I am not sure of this and would be interested to learn Neil Carlson's reference on that point. I'm positive they were not originally A&V engines though its possible they went from their original owner to the A&V and then on to the IC. I've been in the cabs of both the 3602 and 3605 and seen with my own eyes the plaques that I mentioned proclaming that they were built for the X&YZ Railroad. When someone correcty names that railroad we can consider this question completely answered.
By the way I located the reference I was looking for, Mississippi Railroad Heritage, though it doesn't give all the info I had hoped for. It shows a picture of A&V No. 430 with its slope back tender that TZ mentioned previously. This was one of the two 0-10-0's that were in fact inherited from the A&V and became No's. 3600 and 3601 on the IC roster.
Vanderbilt tender?
Here is a photo, from the Paul Eilenburger Collection, of one of the other set #3602, courtesy of Yesteryear Depot.com
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/illcent.htm
Hmmm, I think I see the odd item. Looks just as strange as one of my prior comments, but I'll see if anyone else notices before I just say it. Also just from the picture I would say is was converted from a 2-10-2. One can see where the frame has a funny slant to it where used to clear the front pilot wheel.
Oh, and the local reference I mentioned above is - http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=106
Texas Zepher KCSfanOne of their differences from other IC power was highly visible but you'd have to know the pedigree of these five engines to know about their other distinction.Well, based on that hint I can guess two things (as my research has turned up nothing). 1. They came from the Pennsy and have Belpair fireboxes? 2. They came from Southern and have Southern type valve gear.
KCSfanOne of their differences from other IC power was highly visible but you'd have to know the pedigree of these five engines to know about their other distinction.
A cursory search failed to locate the reference I was looking for to confirm that the 3600&01 came from the A&V but I'll keep looking. Given that let's just confine this question to the IC's No's 3602-06 and here's a few hints that may help answer my questions about these oddities.
These engines originally saw service on a Mississippi short line that was acquired by the IC in 1925. Each of them had a cast iron plaque mounted on their backhead stating that the engine was built for the X&YZ Railroad. I think that in itself was rather unique but that is not one of the distinctions that I am looking for. Their highly visible distinctive feature had to do with their tenders. I doubt that anyone will be able to come up with the other distinction that made them unique on the IC roster so I'll answer that here and now. They were orginally oil burners and the IC converted them to coal at their Paducah shops prior to moving them up north for hump duty.
Texas Zepher The first part of that one is easy. The IC obtained two 0-10-0 Baldwin built locomotives when it purchased the Alabama & Vicksburg railroad. This would have been locomotives 3600-3601. The 0-10-0s numbered from 3602-3606 were rebuilt from A&V 2-10-2s. I don't know enough about the IC to know what was different about these. Hmmm.... edit - a bit of research has found some photos of one of the locomotives numbered 3400. So there must have been some renumbering going on through the years.... Rather ugly beasts actually, that monsterous of a locomotive looks very funny with a tiny slope back tender. Oh yeah, a source authority for the 0-10-0 that has this information above would be the very web site we are typing on. Another would be The Locomotives that Baldwin Built by Westing.
The first part of that one is easy. The IC obtained two 0-10-0 Baldwin built locomotives when it purchased the Alabama & Vicksburg railroad. This would have been locomotives 3600-3601. The 0-10-0s numbered from 3602-3606 were rebuilt from A&V 2-10-2s.
I don't know enough about the IC to know what was different about these. Hmmm....
edit - a bit of research has found some photos of one of the locomotives numbered 3400. So there must have been some renumbering going on through the years.... Rather ugly beasts actually, that monsterous of a locomotive looks very funny with a tiny slope back tender.
Oh yeah, a source authority for the 0-10-0 that has this information above would be the very web site we are typing on. Another would be The Locomotives that Baldwin Built by Westing.
You may be right about the 3600&01 coming from the Alabama & Vicksburg. When I have more time I'll check some references to confirm the history of these two. But the 3602-06 belonged to a railroad other than the A&V and were not converted from 2-10-2's. One of their differences from other IC power was highly visible but you'd have to know the pedigree of these five engines to know about their other distinction.
OK guys I'm going strictly from memory and first hand experience with this question so I'll preface it with, to the best of my knowledge, making it open to correction if any of you have information to the contrary.
The Illinois Central rostered only six 0-10-0 locomotives which it acquired when another railroad became a part of the IC system. 1) What railroad did the IC inherit these engines from and 2) in addition to their wheel arrangement how were they different from others on the IC roster?
RWM, I hadn't looked when I posed the question, but I did use a reference before coming up with the hints and an answer. But to be perfectly truthful, I would have gotten my own question right except for the EJ&E Cavanaugh-Grasselli branch (maybe I need to explore that area!).
Surprisingly, ten of the 15 lines still exist.
Al, I was just poking fun at Carl. I don't care if the person asking the question has the information tattooed on their palms or burned into their cortex.
RWM
Railway Man I think there ought to be a rule that if you can't use a reference source to answer a question, you can't use one to ASK a question either. Maybe you DID have the order of all those crossings all memorized, Carl. If you did, I'm truly amazed. Because I have to actually look up my home address, zip code, and home phone number, not to mention birthdays of my wife or children. I find my hotel room every night in a different city by dead reckoning or keep trying the key card until something opens. I do have my United, Alaska, and Delta frequent-flyer numbers memorized, a sad commentary on my life. RWM
I think there ought to be a rule that if you can't use a reference source to answer a question, you can't use one to ASK a question either.
Maybe you DID have the order of all those crossings all memorized, Carl.
If you did, I'm truly amazed.
Because I have to actually look up my home address, zip code, and home phone number, not to mention birthdays of my wife or children. I find my hotel room every night in a different city by dead reckoning or keep trying the key card until something opens. I do have my United, Alaska, and Delta frequent-flyer numbers memorized, a sad commentary on my life.
IMHO I don't see anything wrong with verifying one's question with a source authority. There have also been many times during the History Quiz that an answer was just too specific or too small a fact for people to answer it right -- in which case the question-poser usually throws a hint or two. A couple of times during the History Quiz's tenure (which I believe is about a year or more), the question-poser agreed to let contestants consult a source authority.
I prefer that the contestants not be allowed to consult source authorities the minute the question is posted because (a) that makes the winner the person with the most data, not necessarily the most informed; and (b) there's no point in having a question definitively answered within a day or two of the question's being posed, which would tend to dull the spirit of competition. (In the time or two on this Quiz I can remember the question-poser said it was OK to consult a source, I didn't speak out but I thought it was OK.) I do think that the person who poses the new question should have the right to verify his data; not to do so would be to risk error and spoil the question for us all.
The point is not to get in the habit of that, though. To allow the answerer to consult a source authority on his own would tip the game to the person with the most access to data, and as I said speed it up, turning it into a search-engine exercise, not a quiz. - a.s.
Okay, Mark, you're up...but first, this important word--the answer!
North to south:
1. EJ&E
2. NYC (LS&MS)
3. B&O (passenger main to Chicago, over which the C&O ran)
4. PRR
(U.S. 12)
5. B&O or B&OCT west to State Line, Dolton, and Barr Yard (Wabash had trackage rights).
6. EJ&E branch from Cavanaugh to Grasselli and beyond.
(Indiana Toll Road)
7. Chicago South Shore & South Bend
8. IHB to Burns Harbor
9. Michigan Central main line to Kensington
10. Nickel Plate
(Interstate 94)
11. Erie
12. C&O (of Indiana)--paired trackage with Erie.
13. Grand Trunk Western
14. Michigan Central branch to Joliet
15. EJ&E main line
You're right, Mark. If nobody comes up with a better answer by tonight I'll show the list and award you the win, since you really have gotten most of the lines. Yes, some railroads crossed this line twice, and one even crossed it three times.
In my prior reply I should have distinguished between the C&O(ex PM) and the C&O(of Indiana). I believe the B&OCTRR should have been added to my list. Other than that I can't think of any other railroads that I've missed. I'm guessing that some of roads had more than one line through the area but to identify these and also to get them all in the correct order I'd have to do some heavy duty map research which is against he rules.
Yes and no, Al--the Wabash went under Cline Avenue on one of the two B&O lines that should be mentioned here. Another line that Mark mentioned, but which had no track of its own here, was the C&O (PM). It ran on the other B&O track that crossed this imaginary line.
Mark--no Monon. As for order, you got the ones next to the limits correct. A complete list will include 15 lines in the ten miles (or less) from Lake Michigan to Griffith. Anyone care to try (again)?
Is Wabash in there somewhere? - al
I'll have a go at it but doubt I can name all the RR's and I'm even less likely to have them in the correct order from north to south.
EJ&E, NYC, PRR, B&O, PM, CSS&SB, IHB, Erie, NKP, C&O, PRR, GTW, Monon, NYC(MC), EJ&E
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