Hi guys,
Can we start a new version of this for 2009? As you may have noticed, I've been doing some early spring cleaning by locking some of the huge threads around the forum and asking for new editions to be started. This is a process that will be happening more frequently from now on.
Thanks for understanding. Be sure to link back to this edition when you start the new version.
Erik
Using the Iowa Trolleys book (CERA bulletin 114) here is what Iowa had during WWII. Some of them were on their last legs and the war postponed their abandonments. There were a few that I didn't list that quit just prior to WWII.
Cedar Rapids and Iowa City Ry, It's still operating as a freight only, diesel powered short line.
Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern, eventually became the Waterloo RR and still exists, but no longer in Iowa on it's original line. WLO are the reporting marks.
Ft Dodge, Des Moines & Southern Ry. The trackage the Boone & Scenic Valley RR operates on is exFDDMS. During the season you can even ride a trolley from their depot to the downtown and back.
Des Moines and Central Iowa Ry.
Des Moines Ry. A street and interurban in the Des Moines Metro area. One of their bridges and right of way is now a trail.
Omaha & Council Bluffs Sreet Ry. They used the IC bridge over the Missouri River.
Sioux City Service Co.
Charles City and Western Ry.
The above had passenger service of some kind during WWII. The Mason City and Clear Lake RR had substituted bus service during the 1930s, but retained an interurban car for service during the winter when the busses couldn't operate on snow covered roads. It still exists as the Iowa Traction RR, using electric operation.
Although not part of the question, two freight only operations existed under wire during WWII.
Iowa Transfer Ry. A switching company in Des Moines. The last I heard, a few years ago, it still exists on paper and the IAIS does any switching.
Southern Iowa Ry. The company lasted longer than WWII, but had abandoned regular passenger service in the 1930s.
Now Des Moines has one of those busses that look like a trolley. Every now and then there is a big push to increase ridership in DM and they tout their trolley. How it's just like what their grandparents used to ride. To me, it's still just a bus.
I don't know how this stacks up with other states, and I have no idea of present day operations. I just thought I'ld write.
Jeff
Iowa back when, and maybe New York now. Do you count IRT, BMT, IND, SIRT and PATH?
I see some clarification is in order. It doesn't matter if the lines were or are owned by a Transit Authority. The River Line isn't important, because Jersey Transit has two trolley operations anyway, the Hudson Bergan County Light Rail and the Newark Subway, also light rail, so the River Line is a third line.
Nobody has the answer righit now, and there are a number of both existing a WWII systems, lots of the latter, that have not been discussed. I suspect with a little homework someone will get the exact answers. But again, operations owned by transit authorities or subsidiaries of steam railroads (like the Sacramento Northern being as subsidiary of Western Pacific) are definitely also included. There are a few ringers that nobody seems to remember or think about!
al-in-chgo from prior post: "The WWII count - I have not much of a clue. I do know that PA had something going on in Pittsburgh, Red Arrow and PTC in Phila, Laurel Lines in Scranton /Wilkes Barre and a trolley line in Johnstown, so that's 5. Might there have been more? Perhaps Hershey-Harrisburg? Scranton proper? Erie? I don't know." So you're saying you don't know the answer to the first part of your question??
from prior post: "The WWII count - I have not much of a clue. I do know that PA had something going on in Pittsburgh, Red Arrow and PTC in Phila, Laurel Lines in Scranton /Wilkes Barre and a trolley line in Johnstown, so that's 5. Might there have been more? Perhaps Hershey-Harrisburg? Scranton proper? Erie? I don't know."
So you're saying you don't know the answer to the first part of your question??
Is not my question! I was 2 questions ago.
It's Dave Keppler's question...a HARD one (for me, anyway)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The "today" one is tricky. CA has three, or perhaps four, depending how you count them. SF Muni, LA, SD Trolley and the SD Sprinter. (the Sprinter is operated by the same outfit that runs the Coaster commuter trains, the Trolley is operated by the Metro Transit gang.). Does San Jose have a trolley line? That would make 5 for CA.
TX has two, going on three, if you count Austin and/or those goofy diesel things that I think live in San Antonio. (the other two are Dallas and Houston). LA has one - New Orleans, FL has one - Miami, CO has one - Denver, OR has one - Portland. NY has one - Buffalo, PA has two - SEPTA and PAT, IL and IN have the South Shore (might this actually be more properly categorized as a commuter rail line?) MO has one - StL, MN has one - Minneapolis, TN has one - Memphis. MD one - Baltimore. NJ one - NJT. MA one - MBTA. OH one - Cleveland. Others???
Many heavy rail rapid transit lines, like the PATCO line in NJ/Phila are technically interurban lines, since they don't have to meet FRA requirements, but I'm assuming they're excluded from the count. I'm also assuming that lines like the NJT River Line, which was built and is operated by Bombarier, is excluded because NJT is the owner.
The WWII count - I have not much of a clue. I do know that PA had something going on in Pittsburgh, Red Arrow and PTC in Phila, Laurel Lines in Scranton /Wilkes Barre and a trolley line in Johnstown, so that's 5. Might there have been more? Perhaps Hershey-Harrisburg? Scranton proper? Erie? I don't know.
Indiana at end of WWII and PA today (Phila and Ptsbrg)..
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I'll just guess on the quiz question: (A) Illinois; (B) Pennsylvania.
I guess the silk was just a temporary solution, then. I wondered about it at the time, because the silk would block the fine powedery snow, but increase pressure drop across the grille, and thus reduce air flow. Thsi was probably not a problem during the winter, but might have been a problem when hot weather returned. I think I have seen before and after photos showing the change in grille location on the GG-1's that you mentioned.
I recall that immediately at that period, not only were P5's back hauling passengers, but the southern railroad streanliners' diesels were occasionally used as far north as Pbildalephia (how this was possible with the ATC that even then was in place in the corridor is an unanswered question), ditto some east-west through trains. But they did not borrow any power from the New Haven, which did not have the problem.
OK, here is a quiz question: What USA state had the most streetcar and interurban trolley systems during WWII and immediately afterward, and which state has the most today? I am not referring to mileage, just to number of independent systems. If you can name all the systems in each of the two catagories, then you are the winner even if others guess the state or states. And if you can name those systems that handled interchange railroad frieght and those that handled only on-line freight, even better.
Pure freight operations do not count. But the Sacremanto Northern did operate local trolley service in both Chico and Sacramento during WWII, even though it had exited the interurban passenger market and operated intercity interchange frieght. Be careful.
daveklepper Fine powdery snow went through the expanded metal air filters because the powder had modules smaller than the tiny holes in the air filters. The snow then entered various electrical components, including the motors, and the melting snow caused shorts and flashovers. The problem was solved by adding a silk layer to the metial screens, with the smaller holes of the silk stopping the powdery snow. There was a reprease of this situation about two years into original Metroliner operation, and I am not certain just what the solution was with the Metroliners, or if any solution was possible. The picture of GG1's pulling Metroliner equipment was an endemic fact.
Fine powdery snow went through the expanded metal air filters because the powder had modules smaller than the tiny holes in the air filters. The snow then entered various electrical components, including the motors, and the melting snow caused shorts and flashovers. The problem was solved by adding a silk layer to the metial screens, with the smaller holes of the silk stopping the powdery snow.
There was a reprease of this situation about two years into original Metroliner operation, and I am not certain just what the solution was with the Metroliners, or if any solution was possible. The picture of GG1's pulling Metroliner equipment was an endemic fact.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/57660482/m/31410626641
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/louvers.shtml
You had a question a while back, now is your opportunity to pose it .
Johnny
CShaveRR I know that the Rapido was instituted a little before the Tempo trains that went to Sarnia and Windsor from Toronto; they had special purpose-built equipment as well. So, did the Rapido use the consists from Reading's old Crusader? If so, I don't know about the motive power.
I know that the Rapido was instituted a little before the Tempo trains that went to Sarnia and Windsor from Toronto; they had special purpose-built equipment as well.
So, did the Rapido use the consists from Reading's old Crusader? If so, I don't know about the motive power.
Whoops, I did miss the description of the equipment of the Rapido. I should have paid more attention to the CN's adventures in passenger service.
I do have a question:
What happened in February of 1958 that forced the PRR to ground the GG-1's and use P-5's and the southern roads’ diesels between New York and Washington? How was the situation resolved?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Deggesty The CN operated the Rapidos between Montreal and Toronto, using LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable) equipment. I do not recall the designation of the diesel power, but I do know that it looked different from other passenger diesels. I may have ridden behind one or more of them. Al - in - Stockton, surely you are not old yet, so don't give us that excuse. Johnny
The CN operated the Rapidos between Montreal and Toronto, using LRC (Light, Rapid, Comfortable) equipment. I do not recall the designation of the diesel power, but I do know that it looked different from other passenger diesels. I may have ridden behind one or more of them.
Al - in - Stockton, surely you are not old yet, so don't give us that excuse.
You got the train name correct. But the equipment is wrong this was prior to the LRC equipment. If you were to hear my bones creak when I crawl out of bed they make a good argument for old.
Al - in - Stockton
Deggesty oltmannd Close enough! Actually, the freight only portion was Harrisburg to Perryville along the Susquehanna River (PC/Conrail's Royalton Branch and Port Road Secondary). There was a second way to get to DC from Harrisburg on PC-via the PRR's Northern Central which connected Baltimore and Harrisburg on a shorter, but more tortuous route. Not sure if that was still in place in 1971 or not, but the Broadway's DC section used the Port Road. From Perryville to DC is the NEC. If memory serves, when the Broadway started using 30th St in Phila, they shifted the DC section split to Phila and stopped using the Port Road. Might have been around 1980, about when Conrail took down the wires. Amtrak did the engine change in Phila at that point. Eventually the DC section went away altogether (at the time the Capitol was put on?) Hey! Give me time to get up so I can answer! I rode the National Limited from Washington to Jefferson City in July of 1971, going over that lovely stretch along the Susquehanna, and I knew the exact stretch (Royalton to Perryville) that had been, and is now, freight only! Seriously, the early bird gets the cigar. The Northern Central was still used by Penn Central until the end of the P-C's passenger service. It did not have catenary, and a reverse move as well as an engine change was required at Baltimore, which confused people boarding in Washington for Harrisburg and points west and northwest. I do not know offhand (I would have to look through my collection of Amtrak timetables) just when Amtrak stopped using the Port Road. In May of 1978, I rode the Broadway from Chicago to Washington, and the train was split in Harrisburg, with the Washington section going through 30th Street (or West Philadelphia, as it was originally called), and the New York section going directly to North Philadelphia. A diner-lounge for the Washington passengers was added in Harrisburg. By then, the National Limited was a New York-Kansas City train only, and the day I arrived in Washington from Chicago the eastbound National Limited's consist was old, ill-kept cars. I believe that the DC section of the Broadway was gone before the Capitol was started by Amtrak, but I may well be mistaken. I do know that in September of 1984 the Capitol was already in operation, in combination with the Broadway west of Pittsburgh, and in October of 1987 it was a separate train all the way. Johnny
oltmannd Close enough! Actually, the freight only portion was Harrisburg to Perryville along the Susquehanna River (PC/Conrail's Royalton Branch and Port Road Secondary). There was a second way to get to DC from Harrisburg on PC-via the PRR's Northern Central which connected Baltimore and Harrisburg on a shorter, but more tortuous route. Not sure if that was still in place in 1971 or not, but the Broadway's DC section used the Port Road. From Perryville to DC is the NEC. If memory serves, when the Broadway started using 30th St in Phila, they shifted the DC section split to Phila and stopped using the Port Road. Might have been around 1980, about when Conrail took down the wires. Amtrak did the engine change in Phila at that point. Eventually the DC section went away altogether (at the time the Capitol was put on?)
Close enough! Actually, the freight only portion was Harrisburg to Perryville along the Susquehanna River (PC/Conrail's Royalton Branch and Port Road Secondary). There was a second way to get to DC from Harrisburg on PC-via the PRR's Northern Central which connected Baltimore and Harrisburg on a shorter, but more tortuous route. Not sure if that was still in place in 1971 or not, but the Broadway's DC section used the Port Road. From Perryville to DC is the NEC.
If memory serves, when the Broadway started using 30th St in Phila, they shifted the DC section split to Phila and stopped using the Port Road. Might have been around 1980, about when Conrail took down the wires. Amtrak did the engine change in Phila at that point. Eventually the DC section went away altogether (at the time the Capitol was put on?)
The Northern Central was still used by Penn Central until the end of the P-C's passenger service. It did not have catenary, and a reverse move as well as an engine change was required at Baltimore, which confused people boarding in Washington for Harrisburg and points west and northwest.
I do not know offhand (I would have to look through my collection of Amtrak timetables) just when Amtrak stopped using the Port Road. In May of 1978, I rode the Broadway from Chicago to Washington, and the train was split in Harrisburg, with the Washington section going through 30th Street (or West Philadelphia, as it was originally called), and the New York section going directly to North Philadelphia. A diner-lounge for the Washington passengers was added in Harrisburg. By then, the National Limited was a New York-Kansas City train only, and the day I arrived in Washington from Chicago the eastbound National Limited's consist was old, ill-kept cars.
I believe that the DC section of the Broadway was gone before the Capitol was started by Amtrak, but I may well be mistaken. I do know that in September of 1984 the Capitol was already in operation, in combination with the Broadway west of Pittsburgh, and in October of 1987 it was a separate train all the way.
I believe it is called insomnia and old age that gets me up some times in the middle of the night. Won't happen much longer as another tax season is here and I wont get much free time until about June.
Anyway my question is what was the name of the trains that carded the first regular under five hour timings between Montreal and Toronto and what railroad operated them. Also as a bonus what special diesel equipment was assigned to these trains and why was it different then all other similar diesels?.
oltmannd OK. An Amtrak question. Now, if you want to travel from Pittsburgh to DC on Amtrak, you can take the Capitol Ltd. But this train did not operate on the Day One of Amtrak. You still could get from Pittsburgh to DC without changing trains, though. The question is, what the portion of the route this train used that was, and now is again, freight only?
OK. An Amtrak question. Now, if you want to travel from Pittsburgh to DC on Amtrak, you can take the Capitol Ltd. But this train did not operate on the Day One of Amtrak. You still could get from Pittsburgh to DC without changing trains, though.
The question is, what the portion of the route this train used that was, and now is again, freight only?
I am going to give this one to you, too. I forgot about the connection near Taylor Yard which had to be built. But I was thinking of the D&H, Belden Hill Tunnel north (east) of Bingahmton on the A&S which had to be enlarged for auto racks under Dereco, then for stacks toward the end of Dereco and the beginning of Conrail which allowed for the abandonment of the Penn Division Nineveh to Carbondale.
And yes, Edaville was founded by Atwood and Blount helped expand it. Then Blount went to North Walpole, NH with his Steamtown running trains from there...an abandoned B&M yard and roundhouse...across the Connecticuit River through Bellows Falls, Vt. to Chester on the former Rutland. I believe Blount made his money in seafood, too, but was connected to both Ocean Spray and Campbell's Soup.too. I do know, too, he was Born Again and offered a movie connecting his religion and trains.
henry6 oltmannd I was going to guess the EL merger next. Now, nobody runs this route. The D&H purchased the former Lackawanna line from Scranton to Binghampton from CR in the early 80s. A much superior route due to the Lackawanna's spending to upgrade line in the first part of the 20th Century. Next question: Who was the founder of the original Steamtown and where was it originally located? First, there is no "p" in Bingahmton. Plenty of "S_ _ _", but no "p". Yes, the D&H picked up the DL&W Binghamton to Scranton main and abandoned thier Penn Division after CR took the EL. So, F. Nelson Blount, cranberry grower and founder of Edaville, founded Steamtown in North Walpole, NH before moving it to Bellows Falls, VT. After his death in the 80's, under Don Ball, it was moved to Scranton, PA. But the next question goes back to the D&H take over of the former DL&W main east or south of Binghamton. What major project had to be undertaken by the D&H to make this realignment feasable?
oltmannd I was going to guess the EL merger next. Now, nobody runs this route. The D&H purchased the former Lackawanna line from Scranton to Binghampton from CR in the early 80s. A much superior route due to the Lackawanna's spending to upgrade line in the first part of the 20th Century. Next question: Who was the founder of the original Steamtown and where was it originally located?
I was going to guess the EL merger next.
Now, nobody runs this route. The D&H purchased the former Lackawanna line from Scranton to Binghampton from CR in the early 80s. A much superior route due to the Lackawanna's spending to upgrade line in the first part of the 20th Century.
Next question: Who was the founder of the original Steamtown and where was it originally located?
First, there is no "p" in Bingahmton. Plenty of "S_ _ _", but no "p". Yes, the D&H picked up the DL&W Binghamton to Scranton main and abandoned thier Penn Division after CR took the EL.
So, F. Nelson Blount, cranberry grower and founder of Edaville, founded Steamtown in North Walpole, NH before moving it to Bellows Falls, VT. After his death in the 80's, under Don Ball, it was moved to Scranton, PA.
But the next question goes back to the D&H take over of the former DL&W main east or south of Binghamton. What major project had to be undertaken by the D&H to make this realignment feasable?
I believe Edaville was founded buy another guy, Atwood, whose intials were E.D.A, but Blount helped expand it. Blount made his money in seafood.
As for the D&H, they expanded their yard in Binghamton (my brain knows no "p", but my hands don't ) in 1976 for their Conrail "competition" to NY, Phila and DC, but I don't think that has anything to do with the Lackawanna line. It has to have something to do with how you get from the north side of Scranton to LV to get Bethlehem and Oak Island. Some sort of new connection from the Lackawanna to Taylor Yard?
al-in-chgo I seem to remember that the former Erie-Lack main line had quite a narrow ROW, so narrow that IM's couldn't use it. Could it be that the ROW had to be widened?? -- al
I seem to remember that the former Erie-Lack main line had quite a narrow ROW, so narrow that IM's couldn't use it. Could it be that the ROW had to be widened?? -- al
Actually both the Lackawanna and the Erie had very wide rights of way, remember they were originally built with 6 foot guage...even Starrucca Viaduct was double track 6 ft guage. What you might be referring to was that the EL transferred the middle of the ROW to Conrail in hopes of selling the five to 20 foot strips on either side of the used right of way to the adjacent landowners. Was not a rousing financial success.
So, no, this is not the answer. But it reveals that the answer does not lie in the EL.
I think it was at Bellows Falls, VT. I have no idea by whom.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.