EMD and GE - Why so much anti GE feeling on the list? Light the blue touchpaper and retire

[wabash1]

ed i just got in and i wouldnt take a ride in anything offered. even a alco. why you ask? cause i haft to get some sleep so i can go to work in a few hours....lol/

Ok some one asked about the sd 50,60,70s here real world again. the 50 is a good resposive engine lots of go and lots of noise. the dynamic is the biggest problem with these engines after you get into set up and then into dynamic. there is no control its either on all the way or none at all. this is not good. otherwise its a fine engine. the sd60s are great engines they dont give up they pull great and the dynamic is noisy again but works fine. and the same with the sd 70s. the big differance between the 60s and 70s compared to the same ge models of dash 8and 9s is the emds will load faster they wont lose there speed on a hill train handling can be done with easy. and you will get where you are going without breaking down.

I am not against all ge models the b23-7 and the b30-7 are very good engines they wont load fast. but they will grab the loads and seem to pull them with easy . ( this kills me to say this ) even sometimes better than a gp38. you can kick cars with this loco if you put it in notch 2 and work the independant to death. older ge will hold a load and not wheel slip as bad as the newer ones. and the older ge 4axel dont seem to break down as often. steam was never king. just another opinion.

Now just to make this interesting. instead of lumping all engines together and jumping around when we get into discussion on loco lets keep like engines alike. in other words dont compare a sd 40 to a dash 9. ( we all know sd40 will win) but lets go with a dash 9 or 8 up against the sd 60 or 70. of what ever alco made at the time. this evens the playing field and will make for a truely good discussion on the good points and bad points of each engine. and who knows maybe emd and ge will get notice of the disccusion and make a better loco. ( we can dream cant we) news articles can be fine to use as referance and the real world exspereances we railroaders have is useful and can be added to the conversation and lets be resonable with out step on each others toes. to me I work with all these engines every day and ed works with a veriety of engines as does limited clear , zardoz csx engineer and even kevin plus many more. we form our opinion on what works for us and what service we are in. In the future i will not give statements of bias of what is better and do it with a school yard bully attitude. if i cant do this i wont say anything.

Now if you will excuse me i have a question for the people on the stupid question thread.

[espeefoamer]

OK,lets compare the SD40 against a U30C. SD40s are still as common as dirt on secondary trains,but U30Cs are extinct on the class1 roads. There might be a few running on shortlines,but I doubt it.

[dharmon]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I GIVE!!!!

I'll take a ride in any engine,
Be GE, ALCO or Elctromotive Division,
The best of which I'm of no opinion.
I'll I want is to ride just one,
I don't care if it weighs only 44 ton.
I'll even ride it in the rain,
heck I'll even wa***he train.
If you let me quick, quick I'll rush,
But this thread has turned my brain to mush![xx(]

[Anonymous]

A) its' a PH "eye"

Wait Dan answered that already.. phoey on him.

Ok, So the cab sounds like 12 jackhammers right beside me, And i would pay anything to see that F&^*ING locomotive DIE!

But Ed is right, I love my Job, I love my Job, come ALCO, GE, EMD, BALDWIN, JAQUES-CARTIER, WHIRLPOOL, CLUB PICIINE, WINN DIXIE, FOOD LION, HBO, SONY, CATERPILLAR, BUGGER KING, STARVIN' MARVIN' , BP, HEWLETT PACKERD, OXFORD, TING-TONG-CHUNG, BANG & OLFUSSON, ...... and any other company that makes locomotives that i've forgotten. If i had a choice between McDonalds and an ALCO, I'd choose... well anyone got a coin?


JOKE! I'd take the ALCO in a whip of a second, I didn't even think of it like that. I'd lock myself in to. Even if it did rattle or smoke abit..

TING-TONG-CHUNG is a chineese restaurant around here, just for clarity sake [:D]

[Anonymous]

Here is the answer, bring back steam!!!

It's cold up here[^]

[kenneo]

Folks -- I left this thread when Mark made his comment about the bashing going on. I don't like bashing. I like good discussions, though.

But Kevin's opinion is his, my opinion is mine, Eds' is his - I'll bet even Mookie has one on this subject, but the point is, we all have our own opinion and it will be different from all of the others.

I can tell you, right now, that I am not going to change my opinion unless I want to, but I will listen to yours at least once. I will consider it along with your evidence for holding that opinion - once. Or maybe more than once, but never again if you start bashing me with it.

All of you folks that have been thumping on each other have those same opinions that you won't change unless you want to, and probably don't enjoy being bashed about by others attempting to change that opinion for you.

You folks are beating up on each other for no purpose.

PUT A SOCK IN IT! I want to enjoy your opinions and I want to hold reasond discussions with you. I can't, however, if you won't let me.

You offer me a cab ride? Unless it will cost me more money than I have or y wife will leave me if I accept, I'll ride in anything at least once. I didn't enjoy being cut off at an age where I couldn't get another RR job because I am "too old". [censored][censored][censored][censored] One of the things I enjoyed most about life was that stinking dirty RR job. So bring on those cab rides!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, PLEASE, these forums are supposed to be fun. Please.

[Anonymous]

Hi friends,
I like the EMD Locomotives over the GE's, I understand that GM farms out some of their
work to Mexico & Canada but most of the money stays in the USA, where GE is a subsidiary of Thomson Electric as is RCA and Thomson Electric is French owned.
So I wonder how much of the profits goes to France?
I think that all of the Whistles should sound like 6 or 12 chime steam locomotive whistles.
Talk to you later,
railwayray

[Anonymous]

Right on the money Ed...

LC

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hummm,
16 hours later and no takers.
So, whatcha thinking, LC?
They got a lotta show, but no go?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: But Ed is right, I love my Job, I love my Job, come ALCO, GE, EMD, BALDWIN, JAQUES-CARTIER, WHIRLPOOL, CLUB PICIINE, WINN DIXIE, FOOD LION, HBO, SONY, CATERPILLAR, BUGGER KING, STARVIN' MARVIN' , BP, HEWLETT PACKERD, OXFORD, TING-TONG-CHUNG, BANG & OLFUSSON, ...... and any other company that makes locomotives that i've forgotten. If i had a choice between McDonalds and an ALCO, I'd choose... well anyone got a coin?

Dear Kevin,
I am anti-"LOL," so let me just say that was hillarious!!!! What are these companies? Here in the U.S. we have ALCO (no longer), GE, EMD, BALDWIN (no longer), JAQUES-CARTIER (these people make watches, right???), WHIRLPOOL, HBO, SONY, CATERPILLAR, BURGER KING, and I think BP (British Petroleum, right???, although here they are called Shell). What are the rest of these???? That was great!!!!

QUOTE: Steam was never king. That's just another opinion

Blasphemy!!!!

QUOTE: Here is the answer, bring back steam!!!

Dear NeilLooker,
If everyone listened to you, the world would be a better place.


I am sorry to everyone, but I can't figure out how to get your names by your quotes. The people I quoted are: 1.) kevinstheRRman, 2.) wabash1, and 3.) NeilLooker.

Steam is, was, and always will be king!!!! It's already outlasted supersonic passenger travel, and a lot more. I'll debate diesels with you, but let steam locomotives rest in peace (or repair in place, if that's how you interpret R.I.P.[:D][:)]).

Most steamfully yours,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

Steam-no thanks. Obviously a railfan. Ever look at what an engineman's life was like back then? Give me a nice clean heated diesel electric where I can close the window and stay warm in the winter and maybe even enjoy A/C in summer (if it has even bee maintained...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1


Ok some one asked about the sd 50,60,70s

That was me -- thanks.

Hey, are cowl units "noisier" inside?
(SD50Fs or even F45s)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

QUOTE: But Ed is right, I love my Job, I love my Job, come ALCO, GE, EMD, BALDWIN, JAQUES-CARTIER, WHIRLPOOL, CLUB PICIINE, WINN DIXIE, FOOD LION, HBO, SONY, CATERPILLAR, BUGGER KING, STARVIN' MARVIN' , BP, HEWLETT PACKERD, OXFORD, TING-TONG-CHUNG, BANG & OLFUSSON, ...... and any other company that makes locomotives that i've forgotten. If i had a choice between McDonalds and an ALCO, I'd choose... well anyone got a coin?

Well Daniel, Most of them don't make locomotives. But i was jsut overemphising on the fact that anyone, even Me would accept a cab ride at any point, no matter who or what made it.
BALDWIN- made locomotives
JAQUES-CARTIER - Was a french explorer in 1535
WHIRLPOOL - makes Driers, hot tubs and Fridges.
CLUB-PICINE - French for "Pool club" they are...uhh.. a pool company.. i jsut see the truck often enough
WINN DIXIE and FOOD LION are grocery store Chains
HBO.. home box office channel
SONY: Japaneese Stuff maker, Like TV's Radios..
CATERPILLAR: they make construction stuff, like Diggers or Plows etc.
BUGER KING: The King of Burgers
STARVIN' MARVIN' : The crappy quick food chain, almost abolished.. had Chicken that was like rubber chicken under heat lamps for nine years.. so gross.
BP: you got it. British patroleum
HEWLETT PACKERD: they make Printers, and mine is busted.. how nice!
OXFORD: dictionary guys, also a University.
TING-TONG-CHUNG: Three brothers that own a chineese restaurant down the street, I ate their once, and to put it in a chineese accent (picture the following blue letters in a chineese accent) make me very sad in stomach.
BANG and OLFUSSON: German team that makes expensive radios, very expensive, too expensive for me.

Those are things i found in my house, So I jsut wrote them down. But I think we'll all agree with what Ed has to say. I sure agree,

Oh and I agree with you, STEAM WAS KING!

I would sure as hell like a cab ride in the ROYAL HUDSON, oh baby, I'd give my left nut to research just to ride in that momma.

LC - Generalizations like that are not necesary. I am a Railfan too, And i'd love to see steam brought back, I wouldn't mind doing all the dirty disgusting work, thats the kind of person I am. So where does that put me, I work for the Railraod, and i want steam back..

[zardoz]

Regarding the loading speed of EMD vs GE, I am a bit confused. Is it not possible on the new locos to adjust the load regulator?

On most of the "low-horsepower" (non-turbocharged) EMD products we used on the CNW (GP7&9, F7 & E8), there was a small two-position toggle switch (we called it the "quick-start' switch") on the control stand that controlled the loading speed.

One position caused the load regulator to return to 'minimun field' when the throttle went to idle; in this position the unit loaded VERY slowly. The other position caused the load regulator to go to 'maximum field' when the throttle went to idle; this would cause the amperage to go from zero to over 1000 amps in ~one second. However, once the throttle advanced past notch1, the load regulator stayed at the position required for the throttle position, and thus the amperage did not jump when the throttle was advanced, but built up up at a constant, dependable speed.

I never worked on a GE, so I cannot compare the two.

FWIW, my all-time favorite was the SD40-2.

[Anonymous]

Dear Kevin,
Sorry about Jaques-Cartier. Here in California we have a designer watch company called Cartier, so that was what I was thinking of. Of course, one of the unfortunate side effects of living in California is that you start thinking of every name that even remotely resembles that of a designer or whatever as the designer. I need to move somewhere.... And besides, being a railfan is the ultimate in "un-cool" or whatever the "popular" people are saying now.... And of course, here in California it seems like every other person tries to beat the train at crossings (especially if they drive big cars, ignoring the fact that the train ways about 125 times as much as they do). Either that, or their radio is turned up too loud to hear the horn.

Of course, not hearing the horn/bell is not hard to do these days, with all the people complaining about noise from the trains (noise???that's music, and it sounds a lot better than most of the music I hear anyway, wheter it's EMD, GE, Alco, or Lionel)! But you don't want to hear that story.... Oh, you do want to hear that story? You sure? Okay, I'll tell you the story:

I live within a bicycle ride of the new Gold Line light rail line from Los Angeles to east Pasadena. This line used to be the old Pasadena Subdivision of the AT&SF (its first route into Los Angeles). And, now that it is completed, many people are still complaining about the horns and bells on the electric cars. This sounds positively absurd to me!
The people who live there have for the most part lived there for over a decade (the Pasadena Sub has been gone for about 9 years now). The Pasadena Sub had some of the steepest grades on the entire Santa Fe system. This necessitated helpers, such as 5001 class 2-10-4's, 2900 class 4-8-4's and a lot of other massive steamers. And after steam was gone, there were still large amounts of diesels, although most of the through freight traffic had by then gone to the Santa Fe's newer line into LA south of the Pasadena Sub. Today, the Gold Line operates electric railcars, which compared to the old AT&SF equipment is practically silent! What are these people complaining about?! And even those who moved into the neighborhood during the past 10 years new that the Gold Line was coming in, in fact many of them probably moved here because of it! So what are they complaining about?! In addition, the "horns" on these railcars (if you can call them horns) are very quiet, and are more like buzzers than horns. From a car you can hardly hear them, if at all. And the horns only blow for crossings anyway, not your usual set of whistle signals. So what are these people complaining about?! And if someone gets hit because they could not hear the horn, then the same people who were anti-horn will be those saying it was the Gold Line's fault! This is lunacy!

STEAM WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE KING!

Me---the pro-horn,
Daniel

[dharmon]

And T-Rex was too in his time……




hee hee hee

[Mookie]

You know - as "romantic" as steam was and as much as I like it, I lived with it for a few years. Dad hand-fired lots of steam engines. Mom worked very hard to get the ick out of his clothes. He would come home and the only thing not covered in coal dust was his eyes (he wore glasses). When they switched to diesel and he was on passenger trains - he went to work - first in overalls (not coveralls) and his usual hat, but with a tie to give the place a little class. Then on passenger, he wore work pants, sport shirt and tie - again to dress up just a smudge. He could have never done that on steam. Steam was a lot of back-breaking work in all aspects. Today's steam - according to what I have read is oil, not coal. No more #10 scoop shovels.

So old steam is comparable to stoop labor - diesel is letting a machine do the work.

Mookie

[ValleyX]

Yep, I made one trip on 765 and it took me a l-o-n-g time in the shower to clean up.
As for the other discussion concerning Alco's, I made a few trips on the old N&W 1100's that were later sold to the C&NW for operations on their Michigan ore lines. What a rough rider they were, as were the old T-6 switchers that N&W had, as well as noisy, smelly, etc.

Give me a trio of SD-45-2's and line me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Yep, I made one trip on 765 and it took me a l-o-n-g time in the shower to clean up.
As for the other discussion concerning Alco's, I made a few trips on the old N&W 1100's that were later sold to the C&NW for operations on their Michigan ore lines. What a rough rider they were, as were the old T-6 switchers that N&W had, as well as noisy, smelly, etc.

Give me a trio of SD-45-2's and line me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear ValleyX
Noisy, SMELLY?! These are two of the most anti-steam statements I have heard since someone described steam locomotives as "hideous." If the sounds of railroading are music, then steam locomotives are the New York Symphony, the Itzak Perlman and the Jean Pierre Rompelle of the railroad world (by the way, that also makes Alco the Beetoven). In my mind, there are few sounds which could ever compare with six 2-10-2's using their boilers to the maximum pushing a massive drag-freight up Cajon Pass, or double-heading Big Boys showing their worth on Sherman's Hill. It made some children afraid, others it delighted. Go see double heading K-36's pulling hard up Cumbres Pass on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad if you doubt me.

And SMELLY? Of all the smells in the world, few can compare with those of a steam locomotive. If they ever made it, Steam Locomotive Cologne would probably be the only one I would even give a second thought! Yes, I know all about cinders, but that's part of being a railroader (and a railfan): getting a massive cinder in your eye from a coal burner, only to stick your head right out the window again. And let's face it---railroading is not a profession for the fastidious nor those disinclined to work!

But go ahead and have your SD-45's! Leave the steamers to those of us who can properly appreciate them for what they are---some of the most amazing, wonderful, and appealing machines ever conceived of. I would take double headed Big Boys any day, even if they aren't so clean.

And dear Mookie[bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow],
I never was lucky enough to have experience with mainline steam. However, many late members of my family were, mostly for the AT&SF. And let me say,

STEAM WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE KING!!!
[bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow]
[bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow][bow]

Well, I will now step down from the soap box[soapbox]. That's my two cents[2c]

No offense to anyone.

Most respectfully yours,
Danile

[wabash1]

I have only run a few amtrak engines i couldnt tell you if they are f42 ph what evers . i can say you put it on line and they jump in throttle to like run6. the noise aint bad at 50 mph and 2 days off to recover. i say the amtrak engine was noisier. this is why you wont here me say anything about the passenger service engines as i dont use them.

kenno dont leave the disscusions here on engines.. this is why i made my statement . a bit wordy but the main thing is not to argue with opinion but state the facts. and i was thinking i did this with the b30-7 to emds gp38. if i have working knowlage of a groupe of engines i will state it. not so much opinion but what each will do and not do. now i haul frieght so anything that does this quick and fast i am bias towards. but even ge makes a few good engines and i will defend them when time comes for it. and to prove it a ge dash 9 engine when compare to a sd70 has a much better dynamic brake. the sd 70 will do the work but it seems like you must get it alittle early and keep it in there before it works once loaded up it will do great and you can lighten up on it and still do fine. a ge engine will load up and depending on the train even lay you into the windshield. the best engine ( my opinion sorry) would be one that would run like a sd60 or 70. and have the dynamic of a ge dash 9. now that would be the a engine. I think emd did make one with a sd90 i have run 1 and it was nice but didnt get to put it to work real hard. i held track speed every where ( even the 60s and 70s would drop to 30mph) and this one stayed at 60mph all the way. and i have run more of the ge 6000hp units and they was nice need more of these units either one makes railroading fun.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29
[STEAM WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE KING!!!

I appreciate your dedication to steam, heck we all do. Kings and Queens rule in their time and they become history, to be replaced by more Kings and Queens. The P51 Mustang was one of the finest fighters ever made..and in its time it ruled, but in the previous war it was the Fokker. I wouldn't try to fight a Mustang with a Fokker and it would probably be ill advised to tangle with a F18 Hornet in a Mustang. So comparing a steam locomotive to modern diesels is well.....The Polish army fought its heart out against the German Blitzkrieg in WWII. The pride of thier army, the Calvary Corps charged straight into progress in the form of armored infantry supported by tanks....there just wasn't a comparison. Steam was king.....the king is dead. Steam was neat, kind of like a helicopter is neat...alot of moving parts, requiring skill and luck to operate, and leaking fluid all over the place. Now it is a cool thing from the past to watch when it is available.

[ValleyX]

I reread my post and thought I plainly related it to Alco products being dirty, noisy, smelly, oily, and so forth. Steam, what a show but it's a show that has mostly been relegated to history. Doomed when the railroads figured out the costs and labor they could cut by switching.

Most of my experience with steam was standing in my grandparents front yard in Lucasville, Ohio, watching the N&W haul coal and the local that always had something to switch there but it's something that was gone by the time I was seven or eight.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

Regarding the loading speed of EMD vs GE, I am a bit confused. Is it not possible on the new locos to adjust the load regulator?

On most of the "low-horsepower" (non-turbocharged) EMD products we used on the CNW (GP7&9, F7 & E8), there was a small two-position toggle switch (we called it the "quick-start' switch") on the control stand that controlled the loading speed.

One position caused the load regulator to return to 'minimun field' when the throttle went to idle; in this position the unit loaded VERY slowly. The other position caused the load regulator to go to 'maximum field' when the throttle went to idle; this would cause the amperage to go from zero to over 1000 amps in ~one second. However, once the throttle advanced past notch1, the load regulator stayed at the position required for the throttle position, and thus the amperage did not jump when the throttle was advanced, but built up up at a constant, dependable speed.

I never worked on a GE, so I cannot compare the two.

FWIW, my all-time favorite was the SD40-2.

The loading rate difference between an EMD and GE is based on the diesel engine's ability to get from idle to full speed and load for that notch (without making too much smoke).

The primary culprit is turbo lag. That is, you can't feed fuel to the engine until you have enough manifold pressure and you don't get manfold pressure until you spin the turbocharger up and you don't spin the turbo until you feed fuel to the engine. So, it's a rather slow process to get the engine up to speed. The gear drive on the EMD gets the turbo up to speed much faster, so less turbo lag.

The control system on non-battery field (i.e anything newer than a GP9) locomotives controls the loading rate, not the load regulator. The load regulator is there primarily to protect the engine against overfueling if there is a malfunction (e.g. engine can't make HP that electrical system is calling for.)

[rrandb]

i am sorry i must have accidentlly logged on to english bashing.com i thought this was EMD VS GE.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

i am sorry i must have accidentlly logged on to english bashing.com i thought this was EMD VS GE.

English language or England?

No one is bashing anyone else. They are having a "vigorous" conversation. Some just converse louder than others. At least it isn't - dare I say - Pablum - would anyone know what that is - ?

Mook

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

i am sorry i must have accidentlly logged on to english bashing.com i thought this was EMD VS GE.

English language or England?

No one is bashing anyone else. They are having a "vigorous" conversation. Some just converse louder than others. At least it isn't - dare I say - Pablum - would anyone know what that is - ?

Mook

Pablum (Pab'loom) noun. The sound rotten fruit makes upon impact when dropped from a tall structure.



It also says it is a name for a bland cereal for infants.

[Mookie]

you peeked....

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

you peeked....

Ahem....what I meant to say was.....it is a name for a bland cereal for infants..everybody knows that. Yeah that's what I said.

[espeefoamer]

I want my Maypo. Anyone out there old enough to remember THAT commercial[?]

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I want my Maypo. Anyone out there old enough to remember THAT commercial[?]

Sure.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

And T-Rex was too in his time……

AND So was king LOUIS XIV back in his time, too!

he invented all those Gosh darn vanity mirrors!